wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
You got it backwards.
There was no ground. They bonded the frame to the insulated neutral which would cause the breaker to trip if the frame became energized
120V from a 240V circuit
- Thread starter brad.walker
- Start date
There was no ground. They bonded the frame to the insulated neutral which would cause the breaker to trip if the frame became energized
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Umm how would you have multiple bonds?
They did have 3 prong convenience outlets.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
The stove probably wasn't bonded and you became the bond when you touched the fridge.Had a rental for a short while. Fridge must have been wired backwards? Touching the stove and the frig at the same time you would get a shock!
One of the hardest jolts I ever got was from a stove. Some jackleg ran a two wire well cable to it, I could see the cable in the basement and wanted to see where it went. Not knowing it went to the range, I pulled it out and saw that it did. I didn't think about it, and when I was pushing the range back in and grabbed the stainless steel sink for a little extra leverage and I became the neutral and the clock turned on. It had been sitting there for years shoved back and into an abandoned propane line that wound up going outside and that was where it was getting the 120 volts from. That was on a Friday afternoon and I was too pissed to do anything about it then. I just turned the breaker off and told the people to eat at McDonalds for the weekend and I would take care of it on Monday morning.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I'd consider a new circuit.
AntonLargiader
Well-known member
I'm all ears but to me, this is a nomenclature thing. It's one conductor that does both: it connects the frame to ground (somewhere upstream) and it connects the neutral to the power system. I can see why it's convention to call it the neutral but it seems to me like it's doing 100% of both jobs.
dave*99
Well-known member
The stove is bonded to neutral. When there is current on the neutral there is a small voltage drop on the neutral and the stove is then at that elevated potential. It’s not at “ground “ potential anymore.
Having the separate ground wire allows the stove frame to be tied to ground potential as there is no current and no voltage drop on the ground wire.
Having the separate ground wire allows the stove frame to be tied to ground potential as there is no current and no voltage drop on the ground wire.
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sparky 1971
Well-known member
They aren't doing the same thing. The neutral is to complete the path in order for the 120 volts to be made. The ground is for safety, in the case of a ground fault, the ground will carry the current and hopefully cause the breaker to trip. If they were the same thing, all receptacles could be two wire with the neutral and ground bonded together at each outlet. Using the ground for the neutral has the potential to be extremely dangerous. It could possibly energize a metal box, the face plate screw, or an entire metal conduit system. All of those are possibly energized during a ground fault, but that's for a split second until the breaker trips.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Why? A transformer would probably be more difficult and accomplish less.
AntonLargiader
Well-known member
I get that neutral and ground aren't the same thing. That wasn't my point.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Just trying to throw out a new idea.
In reality, I would install a solar PV system and battery array to do this
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Then what was the point? It has to be a neutral, and in this case, it's important. It might be one wire doing the job of both, but you can't use a ground, which could be a bare wire or just metal conduit, for a neutral.
EDIT: nomenclature is everything. A dryer or a range is not 240. They are 120/240. Some dummy might need a dryer circuit, found himself one of them there three prong dryer plugins and cord at a garage sale for cheap to go along with the new used clothes dryer he found at Joe Bobs used furniture emporium and proceeds to run himself a 10/2 "220" line to where the dryer's gonna be. He is going to use the ground for a neutral. It will more than likely be fine, but, what if it's going to a sub panel where the neutral and ground aren't bonded? Then the ground is carrying the neutral current back to the main, where it will finally be introduced to the neutral. It will still probably work fine forever, but there's always the chance something could go wrong.
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sparky 1971
Well-known member
Don't forget to put a sub panel on each wall. It is 1200 square feet.
acer66
Well-known member
Just one?
sparky 1971
Well-known member
I would say one on each wall would be sufficient as long as they are 40/80 panels. It is just 30X40.Just one?
dave*99
Well-known member
If we are going to discuss ground, grounded, grounding ECG, EGC, neutral, bonded, fault path, fault current, etc. The nomenclature and definitions are very important.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
well yeah it was doing 100% of both jobs but the difference is a neutral is insulated and a ground is not in almost all cases...