american lockpicker
Banned
How wouldn't it?
Also I don't believe they use $800 hammers. Also US made hammers are like $15-25 retail.
51% US Made
- Thread starter jsackin
- Start date
How wouldn't it?
Also I don't believe they use $800 hammers. Also US made hammers are like $15-25 retail.
treasureseeker
Well-known member
I ended up on UK Snap-on site the other day and found they don’t list the Country of origin, which is really strange.
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/catalog.asp?store=uk
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/catalog.asp?store=uk
What do they use to hammer the stake? Their $400 wrench? Their $800 toilet?
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/262985/re-folly-defense-cuts-alvin-s-felzenberg
http://military.eurekatents.com/about.cfm
Let say it take an hour to make a hammer. For the $800 hammer, $30 goes to the union worker, $30 go to the marketer, $30 go to the trucker. They would spend their $90 in Wally World (support Chinese economy). The rest ($710) go to the executives which spend them on high end European luxury goods. Who are footing the bill? The taxpayers. The taxpayers have less disposal income; therefore, buy less which slow down US economy. For the $1 HF hammer, 70 cents go to Chinese company, 30 cents go to HF (American company). The US military can spend the $799 on hiring more personnel or buying more American made military weapons.
Stuey
Well-known member
That's unrealistic. In real life, HF would know that the fictional US hammer is pitched at $800, and would under-bid them with a $795 hammer.
EvenTheLoosest
Member
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2010
- Messages
- 12
I can tell you that the government does not pay $800 for a hammer. They get name-brand tools for a lot less than you or I can. They get competitive bids and purchase enormous quantities.
So when the military is buying Chinese tools and there are no longer enough US tool manufacturers to even make a tool kit, is China going to supply the military if we get involved in a conflict in the Korean Peninsula?
What if there is a large conflict involving many nations and China is unable to supply enough tools and presumably other supplies?
Relying on foreign suppliers, especially ones that may end up on the other side of the battle field, is how you lose a war.
5lima30
Well-known member
I know that in 1980 through 2000 while I was active duty Air Force and later Air National Guard we had imported tools in our composite tool kits (CTK) for both aircrew field maintenance kits as well as flightline CTK's when I was in the Air National Guard. I remember that KAL tools were made in Korea and were very common. There were US made tools as well although don't know what the ratio percentage was. BTW the KAL tools were not too bad. YMMV.
So here's an update. I talked to two different people that deal with the government on a daily basis and this is what I've come away with.
Pretty much that there is no new law or no new requirements, but that certain kits are falling into gray areas in terms of what laws apply to them. Certain kits, especially the ones that are put on military bases, can still be required to be 100% US made, while other kits that are used for other government services can be 51%. Basically it is a vast gray area where a lot of different laws intersect and it seems as if it's on a case by case basis. So there will be no record of GSA saying "we are dropping our requirements" because a lot of time even the government suppliers are not sure about what those requirements will be until they come up for bid. Pretty confusing.
So a kit comes up for bid and GSA sets the requirements for that specific kit and then the bidding begins and depending on where it's going and what it's being used for, they can somewhat pick and choose as to which law they want to put it under.
I am not an expert on any of these laws or any government requirements. This is just the picture I have after talking with a few people.
Jori
Pretty much that there is no new law or no new requirements, but that certain kits are falling into gray areas in terms of what laws apply to them. Certain kits, especially the ones that are put on military bases, can still be required to be 100% US made, while other kits that are used for other government services can be 51%. Basically it is a vast gray area where a lot of different laws intersect and it seems as if it's on a case by case basis. So there will be no record of GSA saying "we are dropping our requirements" because a lot of time even the government suppliers are not sure about what those requirements will be until they come up for bid. Pretty confusing.
So a kit comes up for bid and GSA sets the requirements for that specific kit and then the bidding begins and depending on where it's going and what it's being used for, they can somewhat pick and choose as to which law they want to put it under.
I am not an expert on any of these laws or any government requirements. This is just the picture I have after talking with a few people.
Jori
HandyManny
Well-known member
Unfortunately it will take this country getting our asses handed to us and becoming the subjects to the Chinese in order for the American people, domestic corporations, and the US government to finally understand that. It will be a hard lesson learned and unfortunatley will be too late to do anything about it. Money and cost cutting as well as ficticious environmental concerns seem to take precidence over preservation of country and strong patriotism. The public school syestem as well as many colleges and universities these days are too busy encouraging our youth and young adults that it's taboo and shameful to be Americans and that we should apologies to the world for the USA, instead of us encouraging the rest of the world to be greatful for all that this country does. Seems like the idea and philosophy of making money and selling out their country takes priority. You ask most young people today about COO and most don't even care to notice where the stuff they buy is made. Sad!!
It's a two way street though. If domstic corporations want the domestic consumer to have faith in their products, those campanies need to start getting quality and integrity back. Simply putting a US flag on your products package doesn't nessesarily mean it's a quality product. I say don't even put a US flag or "Made in USA" on your product if you can't produce a product your customers can be proud and satisfied to own or use. Quality first. We settle too much for less in this country these days.
diesel research
Well-known member
Lots of people talking out of their ***.
There ARE HF hand tools being used in the military both by contractors and soldiers. They are purchased with their own money.
HF does not accept POs and is not set up to be an industrial supplier.
WARRANTY IS NOT ****. Whether from snap on or HF, no current warranty can be of any real use.
Snap on used to provide us boxes, approx 75% "snap on". The box was pelican, the hammers were cheap *** blue point, the meter was fluke, ect ect. Specialty tools are largely OTC or Kent Moore (part of OTC network) or were simply not branded and produced by many manufacturers.
Regular air tools were by and large mostly ingersol rand, including compressors.
SK produced quite a few tool kits with the "fluff1" **** ratchets. I would have rather had HF in that case.
Armstrong and proto have a smathering here and there, more specialty type hand tools. KD has some. Blackhawk has some.
Most of the cordless was dewalt, and hence the birth of my hatred for slipping dewalt keyless chucks.
The tool truck doesn't service you in the combat zone or even OCONUS peace time. Any warranty is processed through unit supply, which is typically a 6 month ordeal, maybe longer. You can't just stop by sears and get a replacement while driving down "route irish" or "pluto" in baghdad.
Warranty doesn't cover when your stuff falls off the back of the deuce-1/2. Doesn't cover theft.
individuals are not issued tent pounding hammers. Those are usually some "local sourced" and a few per company. Ours were mexican sledge hammers. Probably cost $15.
The only "tool" each soldier is issued is a folding shovel and a firearm. Vehicle "BII" or basic tool kits consisted mostly of a bottle jack, a pick axe, and a shovel. Individuals may have chosen to upfit theirs with more on a case by case.
mechanics are almost always "on the scene". They may have their own "chase truck" (contact truck) or a wrecker, or may be inside of the vehicle regardless if it is wheeled or combat (tanks and bradleys) They may even be operating the weapons system. Often when everybody dismounts, the mech may be forced to be "door man" or first man in the door. That happened frequently.
The budget is frequently exceeded w/o concern. I recall a 1 week period where a crew of 10 guys had spent $2million in vehicle parts. "pcms" "bcms" engines trans the regular stuff. "oh well" is the answer. Some of the pcms may be in the $100,000 range. A turbine engine is a bit pricey as well. No one bats an eye, it's what needs to be done.
The US military has never been the "best equipped" in certain aspects, and that is kind of a good thing. It prepares you for the unexpected. They certainly have some cool tools, but in large part there is also a lot of ****. There is a lot of homemade stuff as well. Learn some cool things that way.
*First time I extracted bolts via welding,
*first time I learned how to use a stubby wrench and a cable to get at places my hands wouldn't fit,
*first time I learned how to use a crane to unmount a tire,
*first time I learned how to heat a hub on the exhaust of an abrahms to remove the bearing race
*First time I thought of using a 20k-lb winch attached to a breaker bar
lot of other things a teen fresh out of high school learns when he HAS to.
Sure I could have had the "right" or "best" tools, but then again, who is to say they would be available or work under such a variety of conditions?
There ARE HF hand tools being used in the military both by contractors and soldiers. They are purchased with their own money.
HF does not accept POs and is not set up to be an industrial supplier.
WARRANTY IS NOT ****. Whether from snap on or HF, no current warranty can be of any real use.
Snap on used to provide us boxes, approx 75% "snap on". The box was pelican, the hammers were cheap *** blue point, the meter was fluke, ect ect. Specialty tools are largely OTC or Kent Moore (part of OTC network) or were simply not branded and produced by many manufacturers.
Regular air tools were by and large mostly ingersol rand, including compressors.
SK produced quite a few tool kits with the "fluff1" **** ratchets. I would have rather had HF in that case.
Armstrong and proto have a smathering here and there, more specialty type hand tools. KD has some. Blackhawk has some.
Most of the cordless was dewalt, and hence the birth of my hatred for slipping dewalt keyless chucks.
The tool truck doesn't service you in the combat zone or even OCONUS peace time. Any warranty is processed through unit supply, which is typically a 6 month ordeal, maybe longer. You can't just stop by sears and get a replacement while driving down "route irish" or "pluto" in baghdad.
Warranty doesn't cover when your stuff falls off the back of the deuce-1/2. Doesn't cover theft.
individuals are not issued tent pounding hammers. Those are usually some "local sourced" and a few per company. Ours were mexican sledge hammers. Probably cost $15.
The only "tool" each soldier is issued is a folding shovel and a firearm. Vehicle "BII" or basic tool kits consisted mostly of a bottle jack, a pick axe, and a shovel. Individuals may have chosen to upfit theirs with more on a case by case.
mechanics are almost always "on the scene". They may have their own "chase truck" (contact truck) or a wrecker, or may be inside of the vehicle regardless if it is wheeled or combat (tanks and bradleys) They may even be operating the weapons system. Often when everybody dismounts, the mech may be forced to be "door man" or first man in the door. That happened frequently.
The budget is frequently exceeded w/o concern. I recall a 1 week period where a crew of 10 guys had spent $2million in vehicle parts. "pcms" "bcms" engines trans the regular stuff. "oh well" is the answer. Some of the pcms may be in the $100,000 range. A turbine engine is a bit pricey as well. No one bats an eye, it's what needs to be done.
The US military has never been the "best equipped" in certain aspects, and that is kind of a good thing. It prepares you for the unexpected. They certainly have some cool tools, but in large part there is also a lot of ****. There is a lot of homemade stuff as well. Learn some cool things that way.
*First time I extracted bolts via welding,
*first time I learned how to use a stubby wrench and a cable to get at places my hands wouldn't fit,
*first time I learned how to use a crane to unmount a tire,
*first time I learned how to heat a hub on the exhaust of an abrahms to remove the bearing race
*First time I thought of using a 20k-lb winch attached to a breaker bar
lot of other things a teen fresh out of high school learns when he HAS to.
Sure I could have had the "right" or "best" tools, but then again, who is to say they would be available or work under such a variety of conditions?
SticketsFTW
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 84
TheGrooveking
Well-known member
So I guess when we go to war we reserve the right to load the best ammo in our opponents guns.
TheGrooveking
TheGrooveking
SticketsFTW
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 84
Well they will have all our money and a better MFG base.
expatriated
Well-known member
Why all this speculating about what the government pays for something???
Here's the site they all order off with the GSA pricing and vendors:
www.gsaadvantage.gov
Anyone can go on there and see what the government pays when they order stuff. Just do a search of Snap-on with the part numbers. For example, an F80 goes for $41.83 to $59.98, depending on which vendor you buy it from. Minimum order seems to be 1 ratchet. Snap-on is so expensive at the shops because they have to make up the profits they're not getting from the government.
You really want to see some good deals--start looking at the price of the KRL's and other boxes
Wow, anyone got a government credit card I can borrow for an afternoon?
Here's the site they all order off with the GSA pricing and vendors:
www.gsaadvantage.gov
Anyone can go on there and see what the government pays when they order stuff. Just do a search of Snap-on with the part numbers. For example, an F80 goes for $41.83 to $59.98, depending on which vendor you buy it from. Minimum order seems to be 1 ratchet. Snap-on is so expensive at the shops because they have to make up the profits they're not getting from the government.
You really want to see some good deals--start looking at the price of the KRL's and other boxes
Wow, anyone got a government credit card I can borrow for an afternoon?Stuey
Well-known member
That's >51% by cost of components.
american lockpicker
Banned
maybe they want to use some euro tools like knipex, stahl, wera, felo etc ...
I would prefer they use that over chinese tools but they still need to support the homeland. 10% of our taxes pays for the military.
JohnMcD348
Well-known member
It's not quite that way. Yes, they have a budget. But, that budget is subdivided and segregated. They have money set for personnel, money for tools, money for this, money for that. None of it can be spent on the other AND!!!!! if they don't spend all the money allotted for that purpose, they probably won't get it next time around.
Kinda reminds me of a Dumb@$$ Gunny I knew for a short time when I was helping out at S.O.I. He truly believed that:"If the Marine Corps didn't spend their money on Corpsman and Chaplains, they'd have more money to spend on personnel and supplies." I stood in front of him amazed that he'd made it to the rank of E7 and told him so. Then reminded him he was merely a Department of the Navy and went back to taking care of the young troops.
kc-steve
Well-known member
The "$800 hammers and toilet seats" are from a 1970s 60 Minutes 'expose' about what the military spends with government contractors during wartime. Sound familiar to anything today? Its politics as usual.
From my own experience working for a government contractor, the end-user organization is the one who makes the specifications and requirements for what is needed and the contractor full fills that need. The low bidder wins. At the time, 30 years ago, contractors had to be US based companies. I can't image why or how they could get away with NOT being US based even today without competitors raising hell about it. Some heads are going to roll I suspect.
Steve
http://mccaskill.senate.gov/
OK, here's what we do:
1. Jori emails Claire McCaskill and explains that a business in her district really cares about American soldiers (and other Americans) buying American tools.
2. Claire's staff says "thanks for your concern".
3. Jori responds, proposing that Claire put forward an "American Tools for Americans Bill". (This bill/amendment/rider/etc is something that NO Republican would vote against.)
4. Garage Journal and SEMA put some muscle behind the proposal.
5. ?????????????????????
6. Snap-On is forced to make Dual 80 ratchets in the USA and stamp "Made in USA" on them and put an American flag on the handle andengrave Stephen Colbert's face on the ratchet.
7. Harbor Freight may also be forced to produce their tools in the city that they are named after.
OK, here's what we do:
1. Jori emails Claire McCaskill and explains that a business in her district really cares about American soldiers (and other Americans) buying American tools.
2. Claire's staff says "thanks for your concern".
3. Jori responds, proposing that Claire put forward an "American Tools for Americans Bill". (This bill/amendment/rider/etc is something that NO Republican would vote against.)
4. Garage Journal and SEMA put some muscle behind the proposal.
5. ?????????????????????
6. Snap-On is forced to make Dual 80 ratchets in the USA and stamp "Made in USA" on them and put an American flag on the handle andengrave Stephen Colbert's face on the ratchet.
7. Harbor Freight may also be forced to produce their tools in the city that they are named after.
kc-steve
Well-known member
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