Attempted Highway Robbery by HVAC company

[bonneyman]

Flat rate is a money maker, that's why most HVAC service companies, & service plumbers use flat rate, & plumbers never have been afraid to charge. Not fond of flat rate, but a lot of people like the "upfront pricing" even if they are getting hosed.

Yeah, if you're going to screw me, do it nicely! lol

 

[bonneyman]

Yes, but a grown individual still should be able to differentiate between a technical issue and scamming the customer to make a buck.

Yes, there is a point where one is throwing good money after bad when dealing with "older" equipment. There is also the problem of the customer calling the shop after the repair when it breaks again, pulling an "eversinceya". I'll fix it as long as they pay me, unless it is indeed unsafe. Then I tell them to call someone else if they do not want to replace it.

Unfortunately, job performance in the residential HVAC field is often tied to sales. The job title has become "selling technician", emphasis on selling.

The biggest benefit for "service plans" is when the company is put up for sale. The service plans are a revenue generator, and have a tangible value above and beyond the name or a phone number list. A good company without a deep service plan contract list is almost worthless when it comes time to sell.

My feeling was if the bad part is removeable then it is repairable. (Whether it's cost effective or not is up to the customer.)

So, if the coils (on an AC) or the heat exchanger (on a furnace) are OK then the system is repairable. Since about 2010 the prices on new units started really inflating so it paid to "keep the old gal going".
I had a customer that was faithful to have me out twice a year. We did everything on the up and up, and he refused to let anyone else touch the unit. He told all his neighbors about me, but most had other companies and replaced their units while I was the custodian of his. I got him 7 more years past when his neighbors started replacing units. I'm quite proud of that.

 

[PoorUB]

The only consolation is you kept fixing his old, probably 8 seer unit, where his neighbors were saving enough electricity to cover the cost of the new unit.

I had customers with units that needed repair. Some were selling in a year or two, then you may as well keep the old stuff running and let the next person worry about it. If you have intentions of staying in your home for many more years then replace the unit and get some benefit of lower electric bills.

 

[P0234]

The only consolation is you kept fixing his old, probably 8 seer unit, where his neighbors were saving enough electricity to cover the cost of the new unit.

I had customers with units that needed repair. Some were selling in a year or two, then you may as well keep the old stuff running and let the next person worry about it. If you have intentions of staying in your home for many more years then replace the unit and get some benefit of lower electric bills.

I'd love to see some compelling math. I think both my AC units use about $500-700 in electricity in a year. Unless the new unit used zero or close to it, there's no savings for me.

 

[Git]

I'd love to see some compelling math. I think both my AC units use about $500-700 in electricity in a year. Unless the new unit used zero or close to it, there's no savings for me.

I don't know what the cost of electricity is in your area, so I will use the national average $.13 per kWh. So it looks like fixing an older unit for 7 years would have been about $2,300 in savings on the electric bill, not counting the costs of repairs during those 7 years

 

[PoorUB]

Figure it out right here, SEER savings calculator. It looks like you are in the SW part of the states. Going from an old 8 or 10 SEER to a 16 or 18 SEER adds up quickly. Not such a great deal here in tropical North Dakota.

 

[remagenman]

Man, when did a tech's price quote have to include the cost of his: mortgage, pet insurance, food, gas, haircuts, medical, entertainment costs, beer fund, etc, etc,?

Good for you Doug because they'll just price gouge the other 95% of the non-handy population.

 

[P0234]

I don't know what the cost of electricity is in your area, so I will use the national average $.13 per kWh. So it looks like fixing an older unit for 7 years would have been about $2,300 in savings on the electric bill, not counting the costs of repairs during those 7 years

That's some interesting math. So let say I spend $700/year on electricity with both units, its probaly closer to $500 I think (My total highest bill is $240ish in the summer and I run AC from May to early October -5 months). In 7 years thats $4900. One new unit would be at least $4900, probably closer to 7k around here. So I'd spend $14k for two units. Hope those units can spin my meter backwards.

 

[Git]

I think those calculators will give you a pretty good idea - but keep in mine, they were designed to help justify the cost of new AC by trying to show you 'how much you would save' kind of a thing.

I know one thing, in my area, the price of electricity is only going one way - UP. We have had a 21% increase over the last 2 years alone.

Here is another one of those calculators from Lenox - take a look:

https://www.lennox.com/buyers-guide/tools/energy-savings-calculator

 

[P0234]

I think those calculators will give you a pretty good idea - but keep in mine, they were designed to help justify the cost of new AC by trying to show you 'how much you would save' kind of a thing.

I know one thing, in my area, the price of electricity is only going one way - UP. We have had a 21% increase over the last 2 years alone.

Here is another one of those calculators from Lenox - take a look:

https://www.lennox.com/buyers-guide/tools/energy-savings-calculator

I don't disagree they are trying to help justify spending, the problem is wording... SAVE. You aren't saving anything you have SPEND more than you SAVE.

Lets use the example below, going from a 10 Seer to 28 Seer (is that even real?) My electric bill would be reduced by $2580 over 15 years. Lets say paid 14 seer prices for that 28, I'd still be PAYING well over $3000 to enjoy that new unit. So I'm not saving a damn thing.

 

[PoorUB]

That's some interesting math. So let say I spend $700/year on electricity with both units, its probaly closer to $500 I think (My total highest bill is $240ish in the summer and I run AC from May to early October -5 months). In 7 years thats $4900. One new unit would be at least $4900, probably closer to 7k around here. So I'd spend $14k for two units. Hope those units can spin my meter backwards.

I calculator is an example of savings. Only you know how much you actually run your AC and it varies widely depending on the part of the country you live it. If you spend $500 a year now and say you have an older 8 SEER unit, going to a 16 SEER will drop your AC cost by close to half. The down side is It will take a while to recoup to cost at $250 a year. The example I saw was using Arizona in the calculation. If I toss in North Dakota for the calculator It doesn't pay to replace a unit as we run the AC so few hours. That is another reason we run 13 SEER units in ND versus someone in Arizona might buy an 18 SEER.

 

[Git]

I don't disagree they are trying to help justify spending, the problem is wording... SAVE. You aren't saving anything you have SPEND more than you SAVE.

Lets use the example below, going from a 10 Seer to 28 Seer (is that even real?) My electric bill would be reduced by $2580 over 15 years. Lets say paid 14 seer prices for that 28, I'd still be PAYING well over $3000 to enjoy that new unit. So I'm not saving a damn thing.

Yep. I replaced our system up last year with a Lennox that lists *up to 26 seer*. I know I am not going to get close to that - since a lot depends on other factors, size of ducting, etc. I hope I am at least in the low 20's. I will say with the new unit, you can barely hear it run which is a great improvement. I have no regrets, especially since my home insurance kicked in $8k because the old one failed

 

[Doug]

It ***** but that seems the reality. The HVAC and plumbing industries have that reputation because they've earned it.



Wanting almost $100 just to step off the truck truck, 300%+ mark up on Home Depot parts and a neurosurgeon's hourly rate on labor, little wonder they ***** when you ask for a break down of the cost. The only people that won't itemize are the ones who have something to hide or are too ashamed of their pricing practices.

I've honestly never heard any other tradesmen cry foul about an itemized list leading to the customer "shopping parts price" or how it's a "parts list for free," either. If HVAC folks want to be shady and look like they just made **** up based on how much they think someone is worth, they shouldn't be surprised at having a rep for being dishonest and trying to rip people off. It never ceases to amaze me that folks will defend how they make their bed, but then ***** that they have to lay in it.

Some people are happy to throw several grand out the window in complete ignorance and blindly trust that they're not being fleeced. I can't speak for anyone else, but I work hard for my money and like to know what it's paying for. As a general rule, you should be wary of people who expect blind trust and a complete lack of skepticism on your part. That goes doubly when it comes to giving them your money.

The CT statute regarding automotive repair:

Connecticut state law requires that a repair shop obtain your written authorization that provides an estimate of the maximum cost of PARTS AND LABOR before performing any work which must be signed by you.

After the repairs are completed, the shop must give you a written statement or invoice that itemizes the work done and the parts supplied.

I guess similar laws don't apply to the HVAC trade.

 

[infinite97]

You auto tech guys agree with this?

Old thread / posts, and I work on equipment, not cars, but our shop rate is $145, my field rate is $170.

I’ve felt embarrassed a few times lately because I couldn’t diagnose or fix the customers problem in the field due to lack of employer-provided diag / troubleshooting equipment. I had a real chat with my boss (and his boss) about this and will be following up next week. “I know these engine diag cables are expensive, but…”

 

[Bretny]

You ohmed the motor and it tested good?

$660 isn't bad at all.

His meter must be broken if it ohmed good and he found shorted brushes.

 

[Doug]

His meter must be broken if it ohmed good and he found shorted brushes.

 

[Doug]

His meter must be broken if it ohmed good and he found shorted brushes.

From my original post: "I disassembled the old motor and found that the bushings were bad and the armature was shorting out against the field windings."

I suggest you get some help with your reading comprehension skills.

 

[Uncle murph]

My garage heat pump's fan stopped running awhile back. I have a good working knowledge of these things. I checked the contactor and I ohmed out the motor, the capacitor and checked all of the connections, all good. I called a local HVAC repair company and they came over and diagnosed the problem as a bad fan motor. I told him to give me a price on replacing it and he came back with a quote of $660.00. I told him to never mind and that I'd replace it myself. He said that if I had the ability to do the job to go for it, so I did.

The local supply house had the correct motor and I bought a new capacitor to go with it. My all-in cost was $240.00 to get this thing going (including their $90.00 'service charge' to get them to the house).

I disassembled the old motor and found that the bushings were bad and the armature was shorting out against the field windings. (I have a background in this sort of thing) There was no forewarning of this.

I had it running in about 2 hours from the time the HVAC company left my property.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another one, same company.....during the pre-purchase inspection of this property I hired them to inspect the gas-pack setup that heats/cools the house. While had had the cover off I asked the guy if he could install a hard start capacitor, as I have a generator. He went back to the truck and came back with the same model numbered Supco cap that I had already planned to install. Only $235.00 he said. I told him that his price was flat-out highway robbery and told him to put the cover back on the unit. This cap sells on the open market for $35.00 - 40.00.

This company is in Salisbury, NC and if you're interested in knowing who NOT to do business with, message me.

$660 is perfectly reasonable,it’s not 1986 anymore.

 

[metlmunchr]

$660 is perfectly reasonable,it’s not 1986 anymore.

So, if that's perfectly reasonable, then the same sort of markups should apply to other businesses that are supplying and installing parts.

How about a tire that sells for $120 plus mounting and balancing. That tire will cost the dealer right at $80, about the same as a contractor will pay for a psc fan motor or condenser fan motor. The dealer will typically add $15/ tire to mount and balance, so a set of 4 will be around $550. He'll have about 1 man-hour of labor in the job. Let's apply the same perfectly reasonable markups to an installed set of tires.

$80 tire at 5X cost = $400 per tire, or $1600 for the set.
1 hour labor = $110
$3 for 4 valve stems at 5X cost = $15
$1 worth of balancing weights at 5X cost = $5
Total = $1730

So, next time your tire dealer quotes you $600 out the door for 4 tires, mounted and balanced, including sales tax, you should immediately tell him that's not acceptable and that $1800 would be a perfectly reasonable price. After all, you're the one who's established the mark for "reasonable". No reason for him to sell to you at an unreasonably low price.

 

[Terry D]

So, if that's perfectly reasonable, then the same sort of markups should apply to other businesses that are supplying and installing parts.

How about a tire that sells for $120 plus mounting and balancing. That tire will cost the dealer right at $80, about the same as a contractor will pay for a psc fan motor or condenser fan motor. The dealer will typically add $15/ tire to mount and balance, so a set of 4 will be around $550. He'll have about 1 man-hour of labor in the job. Let's apply the same perfectly reasonable markups to an installed set of tires.

$80 tire at 5X cost = $400 per tire, or $1600 for the set.
1 hour labor = $110
$3 for 4 valve stems at 5X cost = $15
$1 worth of balancing weights at 5X cost = $5
Total = $1730

So, next time your tire dealer quotes you $600 out the door for 4 tires, mounted and balanced, including sales tax, you should immediately tell him that's not acceptable and that $1800 would be a perfectly reasonable price. After all, you're the one who's established the mark for "reasonable". No reason for him to sell to you at an unreasonably low price.

How much would it be if the tire dealer came to your house and installed the tires.

Now if he would have disconnected his condensor and took it to a motor shop, it probably would have been cheaper.

Its costs more to have someone come to you verses you going to them.

 

[like2wheel]

So, if that's perfectly reasonable, then the same sort of markups should apply to other businesses that are supplying and installing parts.

How about a tire that sells for $120 plus mounting and balancing. That tire will cost the dealer right at $80, about the same as a contractor will pay for a psc fan motor or condenser fan motor. The dealer will typically add $15/ tire to mount and balance, so a set of 4 will be around $550. He'll have about 1 man-hour of labor in the job. Let's apply the same perfectly reasonable markups to an installed set of tires.

$80 tire at 5X cost = $400 per tire, or $1600 for the set.
1 hour labor = $110
$3 for 4 valve stems at 5X cost = $15
$1 worth of balancing weights at 5X cost = $5
Total = $1730

So, next time your tire dealer quotes you $600 out the door for 4 tires, mounted and balanced, including sales tax, you should immediately tell him that's not acceptable and that $1800 would be a perfectly reasonable price. After all, you're the one who's established the mark for "reasonable". No reason for him to sell to you at an unreasonably low price.

100x this.
I hope no HVAC service truck owner ever questions a repair bill he gets on his vehicle.

And yes, there is a mobile tire service locally that will come to you and install tires about the same price as a tire shop. With a truck & about 20k of equipment to do it.

 

[haveissues]

So, if that's perfectly reasonable, then the same sort of markups should apply to other businesses that are supplying and installing parts.

How about a tire that sells for $120 plus mounting and balancing. That tire will cost the dealer right at $80, about the same as a contractor will pay for a psc fan motor or condenser fan motor. The dealer will typically add $15/ tire to mount and balance, so a set of 4 will be around $550. He'll have about 1 man-hour of labor in the job. Let's apply the same perfectly reasonable markups to an installed set of tires.

$80 tire at 5X cost = $400 per tire, or $1600 for the set.
1 hour labor = $110
$3 for 4 valve stems at 5X cost = $15
$1 worth of balancing weights at 5X cost = $5
Total = $1730

So, next time your tire dealer quotes you $600 out the door for 4 tires, mounted and balanced, including sales tax, you should immediately tell him that's not acceptable and that $1800 would be a perfectly reasonable price. After all, you're the one who's established the mark for "reasonable". No reason for him to sell to you at an unreasonably low price.

The big difference here is tires are a commodity item with lots of competition and the work is being performed by someone that is just a notch above unskilled labor. If there were millions of ac fans out there that used the same motors and they needed to be replaced at regular, easy to verify intervals done as a walk in service like tires pricing would be very different. Have someone competent come to your house to fix your car that won't start and see what your bill looks like.

 

[slow]

while I think the price is high, it is within reason of what I would expect. Last "HVAC" guy I had come to the house was a $500 bill for "leak check" when the system "lost" 2 pounds in a week. (this was 6 years ago) I expect to pay $200 for anybody to come to my house with a service truck, and at least $100-200 an hour just to cover the overhead of a contractor. Parts, I am ok with a 100% markup, but the capacitor is a personal annoyance where a $24 cap is now $250 . I've kept a spare cap at the house, and needed to replace a couple in the last 15 years, I just put a factory outside fan motor and cap in my unit this year, and it was under $200 shipped to my door, but it did take 4 days to get here. Fortunately, my situation was a loud fan, that I was able to take apart and lubricate, but that only bought me a month of service, but it was enough that I did not have to pay crazy service call fees for the guy to have one on the truck.

 

[FMB4]

I ohmed out the motor, the capacitor and checked all of the connections, all good.

I disassembled the old motor and found that the bushings were bad and the armature was shorting out against the field windings. (I have a background in this sort of thing) There was no forewarning of this.

Huh?

 

[98ssuck]

So, if that's perfectly reasonable, then the same sort of markups should apply to other businesses that are supplying and installing parts.

How about a tire that sells for $120 plus mounting and balancing. That tire will cost the dealer right at $80, about the same as a contractor will pay for a psc fan motor or condenser fan motor. The dealer will typically add $15/ tire to mount and balance, so a set of 4 will be around $550. He'll have about 1 man-hour of labor in the job. Let's apply the same perfectly reasonable markups to an installed set of tires.

$80 tire at 5X cost = $400 per tire, or $1600 for the set.
1 hour labor = $110
$3 for 4 valve stems at 5X cost = $15
$1 worth of balancing weights at 5X cost = $5
Total = $1730

So, next time your tire dealer quotes you $600 out the door for 4 tires, mounted and balanced, including sales tax, you should immediately tell him that's not acceptable and that $1800 would be a perfectly reasonable price. After all, you're the one who's established the mark for "reasonable". No reason for him to sell to you at an unreasonably low price.

Bring your hvac system to my well stocked shop and I’d repair to similar to a tire shop pricing model. The fields are very different and barely comparable.

I used to residential hvac repair and service. It was tough as a tech to get paid 8 hours a day racing from house to house dealing with customers and only getting paid what you billed. Many days you’d work a hour for free at the end of the day. Techs are just padding there bonuses to make up for this. 10x markup on capacitors is a bad business model thou. Never agreed with that. Typically it was 2x markup on parts.

 

[65ranchero]

Yep. I replaced our system up last year with a Lennox that lists *up to 26 seer*. I know I am not going to get close to that - since a lot depends on other factors, size of ducting, etc. I hope I am at least in the low 20's. I will say with the new unit, you can barely hear it run which is a great improvement. I have no regrets, especially since my home insurance kicked in $8k because the old one failed

But you have to consider all the years that you paid and didn't claim anything YMMV ( If you just started to pay you made out, but if you have been paying an average $50 / mo for 13 years it was a wash.)
You may have been better off banking that money and collect interest

 

[bonneyman]

Bring your hvac system to my well stocked shop and I’d repair to similar to a tire shop pricing model. The fields are very different and barely comparable.

I used to residential hvac repair and service. It was tough as a tech to get paid 8 hours a day racing from house to house dealing with customers and only getting paid what you billed. Many days you’d work a hour for free at the end of the day. Techs are just padding there bonuses to make up for this. 10x markup on capacitors is a bad business model thou. Never agreed with that. Typically it was 2x markup on parts.

I started offering a service to customers a deal like that on window A/C's. I'd come out and for a flat fee remove the unit, transport it back to my shop - when repaired bring it back out and reinstall it. (I wouldn't want customers knowing where I lived - people might start showing up at night pissed their A/C went off!) Then add the actual repair would be 1/2 the normal rate (so $35 an hour) plus parts. No takers. They told me it was easier, faster, and cheaper to just buy a new unit. The story of my business life!

Although I've managed to get a pair of discarded window shakers and repair them. Now my little home shop off the garage has A/C!

 

[Git]

But you have to consider all the years that you paid and didn't claim anything YMMV ( If you just started to pay you made out, but if you have been paying an average $50 / mo for 13 years it was a wash.)
You may have been better off banking that money and collect interest

Home Insurance, not Home Warranty. You know - the coverage you have on your house in case it catches on fire. (My Insurance company happens to have 'equipment breakdown coverage' rolled into the policy as a no-cost perk. I also have 'service line coverage - sewer, gas, electrical, etc coming into my house from the street)

 

[65ranchero]

Home Insurance, not Home Warranty. You know - the coverage you have on your house in case it catches on fire. (My Insurance company happens to have 'equipment breakdown coverage' rolled into the policy as a no-cost perk. I also have 'service line coverage - sewer, gas, electrical, etc coming into my house from the street)

Now I understand!

 

[Aileron]

Problem is everyone wants that same Amazon price, but when the part goes out in two months, they then want the labor for free. Remember the service tech doesnt build the parts, he gets what he can. O and there are caps made in the USA but run more than the china versions Not to much more but what you google may not be the same.
No one also realizes the tech isn't driving for free either. He is not putting in 16 hours to get 8. Your getting hit with some drive time from the last job usually.
Had a customer complain because a tech charged 1.5 hrs but was only there for 1 hr and 15 minutes. It was downtown city loft.

 

[danski0224]

I've heard from a couple of people that worked there, that the ****** HVAC company in Chicago with the catchy seasonal name doesn't pay for tech drive time.

 

[Wrench97]

Try semi truck service road calls, $155 and hour and $.77 tp $1.00 a mile to and from, and chasing parts if needed

 

[jjrbus]

Big flaw with the SEER savings calculator. They do not calculate the first service call out of warranty will wipe out years of savings, especially on the high SEER units! BTDT

 

[86turbodsl]

The owners of the house next door are elderly, it's her Parents house, it's really their storage facility as they live in a high end retirement community. They have the HVAC serviced twice a year by a "reputable" company. Last year I was there when the tech showed up, she immediately claims the coil is cracked, and they need a new system. Granted the system is about 20 years old(air handler/coil) and the outside unit is about 10 years old. Since cooling season was over we told the Tech we would deal with it this year. Fast forward to a couple of months ago, house had a frozen water line burst from the cold in February, repairs were being completed, AC had been running a couple of weeks with no issues. The new Tech comes in to tell the Owner and I that there is NO refrigerant in the system, likely due to the cracked a-coil. He went into great detail to describe the little valve in the line that he pushed and nothing came out, I told him it was a Shrader Valve. He proceeded to tell us the system was old and needed to be replaced, they had a super special offer to replace the system, and do regular maintenance calls for 10 years, for only $200 a month, it's a 2000sq ft single story home, that's $24K for the system, and maintenance(no parts/labor, just clean and inspect twice a year).

I told him it was odd that the system had been keeping the house cool during the repairs with no issues, and that it was actually running and cooling right now. He walked off looking puzzled...

A bit later he comes in, tells us he really screwed up, his "gauges" are blue tooth, and they were still set to the last house, the system in fine, no issues, running perfectly. Then he spent another 10 minutes trying to talks us through the deception we caught him in, and how it was really just an honest mistake, but we really should consider replacing the system as it is old, he should have just walked.

The system continues to work just fine, through several 100 degree days, and many days in the 90's. It will have issues eventually, they will have to decide then what to do, and have the new service company bid on it.

What really concerns me is if I hadn't been there, the Owners would have jumped on the new system with no hesitation, they are in their mid 80's and would have believed the Service Tech. Unfortunately there are probably many folks that get suckered into these deals.

And this kind of **** is why i service my own equipment and really treat the few contractors i DO trust very very well. A good contractor is worth their weight in gold!

 

[Syberia]

Reminds me of the time I was told I needed an $800 "fan controller" because my car was overheating and I lived in an apartment with nowhere to work on it. No, I actually just needed the leaky radiator hose replaced for $60. Shop insisted if I did that, it would just overheat again. It didn't.

 

[PoorUB]

Delete

 

[PoorUB]

I've never had success checking charge when it's too cold outside.

Regular heat pump instructions say to charge in cooling mode.

At least in my area, I suspect that almost all of the cooling checks happening before it hits 75 outside are customer wallet flushes.

The problem is most techs don't know how. it can be done successfully if you know how. Like I said, I have done it many times in winter. A few times I have gone back in the summer and checked the charge and it was right on.

 

[PoorUB]

I started offering a service to customers a deal like that on window A/C's. I'd come out and for a flat fee remove the unit, transport it back to my shop - when repaired bring it back out and reinstall it. (I wouldn't want customers knowing where I lived - people might start showing up at night pissed their A/C went off!) Then add the actual repair would be 1/2 the normal rate (so $35 an hour) plus parts. No takers. They told me it was easier, faster, and cheaper to just buy a new unit. The story of my business life!

IMO, it isn't possible to make money on servicing window AC's. Just for the reason you state. If a shop charges $100 per hour you have the drive out then back to your shop, then back to reinstall the unit. Unless the customer lives across the street you have at least 1-1/2 hours into it, then another 1 or 2 hours for the repair. So now you have 2-1/2 to 3-1/2 hours, or $25 top $350! You can buy a new unit for $150 and up. The local appliance shop will sell you a new unit for $200 - $400 and come out and stuff it in the window for you and haul back your old unit.

When I did HVAC service i had a customer call and wanted us to pick up his window AC, clean and service it, make sure it worked properly and come back and put it in the window. I told him the bill was going to be $300-$400. He told me to come and get it done! I was shocked! I mentioned he could take it to an appliance repair and the bill would be half the price, but he said he didn't want to screw with it and wanted someone to put it in the window.