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Bonded neutral/ground in new 200amp service?

MrMark

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Code allows you to not have the ground wire carried to a livestock building because the ground apparently gets induced voltage in it from the other wires. eliminating the ground wire eliminates the induced voltage and the problem with livestock feeling the current.

Charles

Makes sense, except technically it's capacitively coupled voltage, the same thing that your common noncontact tester sees. Induction refers to current.

I looked through those posts you linked and the very first post is good. After that there was a lot of misunderstanding going on there with regard to ground rods though. It continues to amaze me how many people think current gets sunk into the earth, even electricians.

Those rods have three purposes

1) to reference the neutral to earth potential around 0v, as pointed out in the first post;
2) for lightning strike; and
3) to stabilize the neutral from stray voltages

they have nothing to do with fault clearing.

The neutral does not even have to be grounded; it could very well be allowed to float. Many systems float.
 
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MrMark

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Sorry, like I said, I missed part of the conversation... (couldn't take it:drool:)

What I was trying to say (albeit poorly) was that the electrical service was NOT grounded in the livestock buildings (such as shed and shelters and some of the older barns that had less electrical equipment), but rather at the service which was not attached to the building... long before the newer requirements for four wires between panels on different buildings... is that better? No grounding wire. I've had trouble getting my thoughts across since I got sick a couple years ago, I try to stay away from electrical theory stuff for that very reason:thumbup:

So it sounds like you are saying what Charles is saying is that the new 4 wire (including the ground) feed to the outbuilding rule does not apply to the dairy barns. In that case the panel in the barn would have the neutral to ground bond to establish a fault clearing path over the feeder neutral.

Well, there you go Stiney.
 

electrodude

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It's one of those situations where "protection of personnel and property" seemingly goes against the grain of common understanding. It's also why an untrained person should NEVER pick up a code book and think they even begin to understand what it says!

Stiney, as far as exceptions go, look into sizing OCPD (overcurrent protective device~breaker) for an electric motor. There are exceptions to the exceptions! (no, I'm not kidding!)
 

MrMark

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Thanks MrMark. This discussion has been very enlightening for me. I installed my submersible pump a season before I did my RV pedestals and water hydrants at my camp. I ran a dedicated UF cable back to the garage at the time, and did a ground bond under the well cap where the pump wires junction with the UF cable. You certainly don't want the well casing electrified if the pump does the twist down there and a wire comes into contact with the casing, ect. Next season I trenched my utilities and installed that mid-lot pedestal breaker panel and used my 30' well casing as my ground rod. Houston we have a problem. I need to power the pump off the pedestal so I don't have a small portion of the campground area return current running back to the garage on the pump's UF grounding conductor. Am I wrong as Billo would bellow? I should put my current clamp around it and see if I can get a rise out of it.

If I understand this correctly you have the pump receiving power from the garage on this uf cable and you tied the metal on the well cap to the ground wire on the uf feeder? All correct? Sounds right to me.

Next you went ahead and installed a power pedestal out in this same area. You then tied this same well casing that is connected to the ground on the uf feeder to the tied together neutral and ground bus bars on your pedestal? So you used a piece of equipment as a ground rod?
Is this all correct? If so, yeah you are going to be sending part of your neutral current back on your uf ground wire. You need to fix that.

Who is Billo?
 

keweenawbee

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Bill O'Reilly, we love to watch him for it's comedic value. It now occurs to me that if I power the pump from the pedestal that I will have to energize an isolated contactor, probably with a low volt coil, since my pressure switch is back at the garage. I have tons of extra wire & conduit runs so I could do that, or just run that 100 amp rated ground out to that pedestal and remove it's G-N bond. (and forget about it). As far as using "a piece of equipment" as a ground rod, I believe a 6" steel well casing that goes down to bedrock is approved as a grounding anode, but as I can't afford one of them there $100 paperback code books I can only rely on my vague memory.
 
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walrus

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And yet you still have never addressed the issue of the codes exclusion for livestock structures. Why is that?

Politics would be my first guess. You lobby hard enough and you get your way.
 

Aceman

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So it sounds like you are saying what Charles is saying is that the new 4 wire (including the ground) feed to the outbuilding rule does not apply to the dairy barns. In that case the panel in the barn would have the neutral to ground bond to establish a fault clearing path over the feeder neutral.

Well, there you go Stiney.

What I believe electrodude is saying is the OLD code allowed 3 wire feeders to livestock building just like every other detached structure. Now like everything else, with the new code it gets 4 wires too.

There are a lot of older farm services with a meter on a center power pole with aerial triplex spidering out to all the buildings around a farm. My folks farm is the same way.

I also just finished wiring a large dairy freestall barn a few months ago. Every flat surface the cow can walk on or metal object the cow can reach is bonded.

Art. 547 lists the requirements. Look up "equipotential plane" in the 547.2 definitions and try reading 547.10(A) and (B).
 

foolishpride

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I haven't read every bit of this thread, but I did see a reference to "code exclusions for livestock structures". Are you talking about grounding and bonding? If you are, I can tell you that the preferred method of doing so is NOT on the livestock structure. Milk cows in particular are very sensitive to voltage (difference in potential between two points). I have actually witnessed milk cows dropping over when they exited a parlor because the ground fault on a lighting circuit was insufficient to trip the breaker. I was also told by dairy farmers that a cow that gets electrocuted, however mildly, will be off its milk for quite some time, and it can cause them udder problems to boot. I know it sounds funny, but a milk cow is a rather valuable creature.

(I spent a lot of time I'd rather not remember working as an electrician on quite a few dairies across Central Washington, everything from vacuum pumps, lighting, separators, pit motors, to washdown units and carcass lifts. Yeehaw)

I think if old Bessie the milk cow got electrocuted, she would be turned into hamburger. Electrocuted infers death. Shocked would be the better term. :bounce:
 
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Charles (in GA)

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Here is THE LINK I posted the other day for a really good neutral/ground discussion on the Yesterday's Tractor discussion forum. Normally, I would not link to other forums, because the focus here is this forum, but this discussion warrants reading, as it says, better than anyone here has been able to, what this ground/neutral issue is all about as far as bonding/not bonding at subpanels. The thread has expanded greatly since my original post of the link, its open to anyone to read. The guy who started the post is a retired electrical engineer and later became an attorney (wow! what a change of professions). Its a fun read and pretty well sums it up. I didn't want to copy the original post because of possible copyright issues with the web site, but JohnT did say OK to quote him so long as everyone realizes he offers "no warranty" on what he says. So here is what the original post contained, but you really need to see the entire discussion.

As the whole electrical Neutral versus Ground issue (or causing the two to be in parallel if re bonded downstream at a sub panel) has again raised its ugly head below, as a public service I copied and edited a long winded explanation I posted here or on Johnnypopper a long time back and based on the electrical post below feel its good it be posted again for yall.

ELECTRICAL GROUNDING

Over the years on many various Tractor Board postings concerning general home n farm AC wiring, I’ve observed a common misunderstanding regarding “grounding” and ground rods etc. which I hope to correct in the interest of safety.

First of all, it’s the service NEUTRAL that gets bonded to Mother Earth via “made grounding electrodes” such as rods driven into the earth or metallic water or gas pipes etc. Out at the electrical pole the Neutrals (if a Y service) on the high voltage primary side are tied to Mother Earth,,,,,,The Neutrals on the low voltage (120/240) secondary side of the transformer also get bonded to Mother Earth,,,,,,,,,And finally at the electrical service entrance meter base or the main service entrance panelboard or even up on the riser, its again the Neutral that gets tied to Mother Earth. That’s to keep the services and the grid etc. at one single common low voltage reference which Mother Earth provides, albeit not perfect.

So what about the Equipment safety ground, the bare/green GROUNDING conductor that is used on three wire appliances and is wired to the outer metal cases on an electric drill or skill saw etc., isn’t it “grounded” ??? Well, it is, but just because at the main service entrance the Neutral Buss and the Safety Equipment Ground Busses are bonded together, therefore, the safety equipment Ground is also tied to Mother earth but notttttttt only for reasons some might think. Since the Neutral conductor is an ordinary current conductor which happens to be grounded, it’s referred to as a GROUNDED CONDUCTOR while the safety equipment ground (green/bare) is referred to as a GROUNDING CONDUCTOR. The sole purpose of the third wire safety equipment green/bare ground is not only so that circuit is tied to Mother Earth and all those ground rods and water pipes, buttttttttt it’s to provide a dedicated low impedance return current path back to the panel and its circuit breaker (Remember at the panel Neutral and Ground busses are bonded together) in case of a fault (like a hot wire gets shorted to the drill case) so the breaker trips de-energizing the circuit and you don’t die hanging onto the drill. I hear people talking about driving more ground rods and making sure that drill case or appliance or stove etc. is bonded to Mother Earth thinking that alone somehow makes it safe, while its NOT ONLY the bond to earth that can save their life, it’s the drill case or stove being bonded to Neutral back at the panel that’s critical. The safety equipment green/bare ground wire is tied to the drills case so if there’s short there’s a dedicated current return path back to the panel to trip the breaker. If you had a drill with a metal case and only a two wire circuit serving it with no third equipment grounding conductor and say you drove a ground rod and attached it to the drills case, you think that would save your life if a hot wire got shorted to the drill case MAYBE BUT YOU COULD STILL DIE (depends on the ground quality and other things). The reason is the earth (depends on moisture n mineral content etc. etc.) is a poor high resistance conductor so there wouldn’t be enough return current back to the panel to trip a 20 amp circuit breaker butttttttttttttt it only take like 50 milliamps through your old ticker to kill you which that short can continue to supply if there’s no low impedance return current path (like the equipment ground) to trip the breaker.

Sooooooooo it’s the Neutrals that get tied to Mother Earth and driving rods into the earth to “ground” that Neutral and subsequently the equipment ground buss that’s also bonded to it isn’t the whole thing, it’s the fact that the equipment ground buss is bonded to the Neutral and provides a current path back to the panel in case of a short/fault to trip the breaker n save your life that’s very important.

Hope this helps, God Bless yall n keep safe and USE THE NEC (to the extent possible permitted) even if you dont undertsand, the people who write and approve it are true experts (who, unlike most of us, DO understand electrical safety) and things in it can save lives and prevent fires.

If in doubt consult a trained experienced professional and dont risk your life based upon unqualified opinions and sure not on anything I hurredly posted here although its my honest belief the above is accurate.


John T
 

MoFoJoe

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Not sure if this is totally relevant but my inspector let me run a 100 amp "second service" off my 200 amp main breaker panel with my left-over aluminum triplex thereby saving me the cost of a direct burial separate ground wire. The triplex alum wire was too big to run into my breaker box directly so I put a big Midland junction box outside on the wall opposite and used the smaller equivalent copper into the breaker. I installed a pedestal style sub-panel mid-lot about 4 feet away from my steel cased wellhead that goes down about 30' to bedrock and bonded it to that. Can't imagine a better ground rod. There is a busway at the bottom of that pedestal with parallel connections for my future (I hope) cabin someday. I am feeding two RV pedestals down at the shoreline embankment area of the 30 and 50 amp variety. I had to pay for direct burial wire that normally the utility co would supply but I will only have a single meter and power invoice each month.

From your pics, I compliment you on workmanship and future forethought. I do have a question though, the metal Midland jbox, is the enclosure electrically bonded? I cant tell from the picture. Sorry, just curious.
 

keweenawbee

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Thank you Mofo. If you are talking about the junction box hanging on the garage, good catch, it had not been grounded yet to the grounding bar in the main circuit breaker box at the time of the photo. I also want to double check the G-N bonding at my midlot pedestal breaker box. It appears to be factory bonded to a large ground plane behind the breakers, but it is something I will have to check up on. It would be difficult but not impossible to un-bond if that is the case, and if not the case I need to add a G-N jumper. Here is a photo if anyone wants to comment. I have been reading the above referenced posts from another forum and it has been really interesting. I was not aware of the customary voltage levels on the main utility delivery wires. Using ohms law it is no wonder how they can supply so many loads from such a small wire, and also the huge dangers these voltages present to us mere mortals and critters down around grounded surfaces. I remember my dad, an EE, who use to joke around by grabbing live wires, ect. (making sure of course he was nowhere near a ground or neutral), it was kind of inspiring to understand the basics of potential, which is crucial.
 

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MoFoJoe

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Yes Sir, I was referring to the terminal enclosure mounted on the garage, I called it a Midland jbox to reference your terminology.

About the picture in post position #93, I'm not sure about the neutral bar and the large back plane, but I did see a G-N bonding has accured in the lower compartment on the neutral parallel lug or "loop feed terminal bar" by Midwest Elect Products Inc's description from the green bonding screw
 
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keweenawbee

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Thanks for seeing that. You obviously do this more than I do. So if I decide to run that separate ground this summer I can un-bond this panel. I am a little concerned about what I read today where it said along the lines of it's acceptence "in the absence of low voltage or communication wires between same structures", since I plan on having extensive low voltage systems on the property. I know that with care I can prevent sharing a reference between these systems, but it sounds to be not up to snuff, nor desirable.
 
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mrb

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I know that with care I can prevent sharing a reference between these systems, but it sounds to be not up to snuff, nor desirable.

that doesnt matter. its if there is a metallic path between structures, doesnt matter what it is or what its connected to.
 
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