Building with green (fresh cut) wood

[theoldwizard1]

I have seen several videos and/or TV shows where people are building with green wood. The wood comes right off the onsite mill and just has the edges squared up. The wood is full dimension (a 2x4 is 2" by 4" or maybe a smidge more). They use longer screws or nails.

Are these people going to have problems with twisting/splitting in the future or will standard construction techniques adequate to prevent this from happening ?

 

[Junkman]

If you finish both sides with either sheetrock or wood, it will dry in place and usually not twist. I build a cottage using green wood, and never had a problem. Just make sure that the wood that is being cut doesn't have a natural twist to it, as it was growing. That wood will give you problems. Straight trees usually work the best. In my case, it was a matter of cost at the time. The sawmill would plane two sides, so I didn't have problems with the wood being different dimensionally. I wouldn't use wood that was rough cut on all 4 sides, for obvious problems of having uniform walls and floors.

 

[TerryH]

At the very minimum it's gonna shrink! Boards that were tight together won't be for long.

 

[Jazz1]

I have seen several videos and/or TV shows where people are building with green wood. The wood comes right off the onsite mill and just has the edges squared up. The wood is full dimension (a 2x4 is 2" by 4" or maybe a smidge more). They use longer screws or nails.

Are these people going to have problems with twisting/splitting in the future or will standard construction techniques adequate to prevent this from happening ?

It can twist and pop drywall and a host of other little nightmares which is why contractors here building to code must use stamped (kiln dried) lumber. There was some green lumber used by shady contractor locally years ago and the tenants learned within a few years,,window jamming, doors sticking and drywall popping.

 

[bjcouche]

What's the difference between "green wood" and the stuff you buy at the local big box store? I buy a 2X4 from one of those stores and within a month it's twisted 20-35 degrees over an 8' length, and warped as well. If you don't use the big box wood within a couple of days after buying it, it's warped and twisted beyond any use except firewood. Surely green wood can't be worse?
Brian

 

[Milton Shaw]

Bjcouche, the green wood they are referring to is fresh lumber straight from the tree that has not been kiln dried. This fresh cut lumber is usually used on site to build cabins, lodges barns and other rustic building that showcase the natural woods. Also this wood is a lot less expensive than buying it at retail prices. The green wood you buy at big box store is pressure treated wood that the treatment is green and the lumber is sold dripping wet sometimes. It does warp and twist like crazy if you don't nail it down soon after purchase. It is pressure treated to keep the wood from rotting and from termites and is used outdoors primarily for decks etc.

 

[bjcouche]

Maybe I wasn't clear.
I know what pressure treated lumber is, and yes some types are green in color and are dripping wet, hit it with a hammer and you get water in the face.
I know that the big box stores also sell what they CALL "kiln dried".
I also know what rough cut "green" lumber is. Trees that are cut down, sawed to size and then immediately used.
My question was, how is it possible for the green lumber to twist and warp any worse than the supposedly kiln dried lumber from the big box stores? That stuff is unusable a month after you buy it, so in what ways is green lumber worse?
I remember as a kid I could go and buy a 2x4 at the local big box store, imported from Canada all twisted and warped. Or I could go to the local lumber yard that MADE their own lumber (I think they dried it too) from locally harvested trees and get a perfectly straight knot free board for less $. I would have paid more, it was far better lumber. They've been out of business for years now...

 

[Voi]

There is a guy who posts on the Fine Homebuilding Forums and some of the green building and building science type sites who uses green lumber and Larsen wall trusses for his homes.

I can't recall his arguments in favor of green lumber nor can I recall his user name. I'll post back if I come across it.

I've read a bit about his building approach but it wasn't something I'd attempt myself or attempt to talk a contractor into doing so I didn't read into it much.

 

[BillK]

I buy a 2X4 from one of those stores and within a month it's twisted 20-35 degrees over an 8' length, and warped as well. If you don't use the big box wood within a couple of days after buying it, it's warped and twisted beyond any use except firewood.

Brian,
Not sure how you are storing it but I just have not seen this problem. This last weekend I used a couple of 2x4's that I bought from Home Depot at least six months ago. They were extras from another project and have been laying on the garage floor under my Chevelle since last summer. They were pretty much straight and I had no problem with them. I very rarely have purchased lumber from HD or Lowes that has had a problem.

 

[finn]

Rough cut wood isn't necessarily significantly cheaper than box store sourced lumber.

I was buying rough 2"X4" studs to renovate an old garage last year, direct from a local one man sawmill. They cost#2.00 each, the same as the studs at Menards last week ($1.99)

 

[ford33]

The lumber I buy from the big box stores are kiln dried and does not twist very much over time. This weekend I used used six, 2x4's, that were date stamped 2013 on a project. The wood was stored in my garage on a ceiling rack for almost 3 years and only one board had a slight twist, the rest were straight.

Checking my expert material data source book "Wood" by Eric Meirer, southern yellow pine (SYP), of which there are many species, shrinks about 6% tangentially and 4% radially from the growth rings. Overall volume of SYP wood shrinks about 10%. That is a lot of dimensional change from wet to oven dry wood.

I would not want to build a structure with wet wood. The connecting joints, fasteners, squareness of the structure would change too much over time.

 

[theoldwizard1]

My question was, how is it possible for the green lumber to twist and warp any worse than the supposedly kiln dried lumber from the big box stores? That stuff is unusable a month after you buy it, so in what ways is green lumber worse?

I buy my lumber from one of the "big box stores". If I don't "use" it (nail it into a project) it will like warp or twist within a few weeks.

I think the issue with most "kiln dried" lumber these days is how fast it is kiln dried AND where it is stored after drying. IMHO, sticker, stacked and banded 2by material and left to dry "naturally" (heated barn) for 12+ months and that would be about the best you can get.

 

[stihlntime]

This thread brings up memories of a deployment to Honduras in the early 80's while in the Army. The engineers would order lumber off the locals for base camp and have it the next day. Virgin timber, if they wanted a 2x6 20 feet long they got it knot free. The quality of lumber they delivered was amazing. I never noticed it warping or twisting.

 

[WVBrady]

For what it's worth:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/green-homes/green-wood-zmaz76mjztak.aspx

 

[matt_i]

In my experience, the "SPF #2" grade, K-D, can run from awesome to despicable. Sometimes its literally nicer than the "premium grade" at a lower cost. I think the biggest variable is the sawmill has no control of what's coming in on today's truck...

The premium grade is more reliably straight and as less wane (bark & tree OD radii) from what I find.

I think the reason its hard to find actual green wood to build with short of being a customer at a sawmill is the K-D version is not going to move nearly as much.

You have to consider that some of the wood in a K-D stack ends up on the bottom of a stickered stack, and might have literally a ton of wood on top of it, overcoming the internal stresses. When the weight is finally relieved the thing can start to twist and warp.

 

[MScott]

I built (framed) my first garage with lumber cut from trees on my property and put up while still green. It was immensely strong and I had no problem with twisting or shrinkage. I think that the fact that it was nailed together and was able to dry in that position kept it from twisting. That garage is still standing (45 years later) and there have been no problems. I built it with full dimension 2 x 6 lumber that was mostly hemlock and basswood.

 

[justanengineer]

Maybe I wasn't clear.
I know what pressure treated lumber is, and yes some types are green in color and are dripping wet, hit it with a hammer and you get water in the face.
I know that the big box stores also sell what they CALL "kiln dried".
I also know what rough cut "green" lumber is. Trees that are cut down, sawed to size and then immediately used.
My question was, how is it possible for the green lumber to twist and warp any worse than the supposedly kiln dried lumber from the big box stores?

The glorified firewood the box stores sell is usually flashed in the drying kiln, its still pretty green compared to what a decent mill will sell but the mills making that **** are making money on volume not quality. Realistically, the major difference between that and green lumber is the same reason why green wood is rarely used in building - bc green lumber cant legally be moved more than ** miles from its source in many states, its treated the same as firewood to protect against invasive bugs.

 

[jgorm]

What's the difference between "green wood" and the stuff you buy at the local big box store? I buy a 2X4 from one of those stores and within a month it's twisted 20-35 degrees over an 8' length, and warped as well. If you don't use the big box wood within a couple of days after buying it, it's warped and twisted beyond any use except firewood. Surely green wood can't be worse?
Brian

I thought the same thing. I've spent way over $1000 on 2x4s, 2x6s and 2x12s in the last year. I try and be picky and only pick the best ones (straight and light weight). I've had some that were so wet they dripped when I put a screw in them. I think it goes from the mill, to the truck, to the depot, to me in less than a week. The stuff that I let sit around for a few months gets badly warped. I just bought a sheet of plywood that lifted a corner about a foot within a week of purchase.

 

[MushCreek]

Most places require graded, stamped lumber for structural use. I was going to try timber framing a great room, but the cost of having the timbers graded and stamped added too much to the cost. Check with your local building authority before building.

The quality of lumber is woeful these days. I've bought from the big boxes, and from local 'pro' yards, and most of it is junk. Ultimately, I built my house mostly of concrete, and used metal studs for the interior walls. Everything started straight and stayed straight, without nail pops. The wood in the roof trusses is awful, and I had to cross strap and shim the ceiling to get it flat.

 

[Dragfluid]

Wow,,,,,,,,,, sure is a lot of "variety" here.

This spawned a memory of the original quonset hut that occupied the slab that the current shed is now on. Dad built it for a machine shed for the farm. 40x70. "A couple of Swedes" built the rafters on sight, out in the field, using rough cut "piss elm". And the nails they used were those things that looked like they had drill flutes in them. I'm sure someone here will have the name.

So anyway, this was around 1958. Along comes 1973, and dad says to turn it into an auto repair shop for my upcoming career. Of course a ceiling was part of the plan. Now those rafters had a bottom cord tying them together about 11' from the floor. And when I say "about" 11', I'm not kidding. They were all over the damn place! So, we have to get them all on the same plane. What a nightmare that was! We broke a hell of a lot of boards trying to pull those damn nails out that previously green wood that had 15 years to dry.

Edit: Found a pic of the screws. The ones on the right. "Screw nails?"

 

[Jon_E]

The shell of my new garage is completed right now, been standing and waiting for some warmer weather to finish things up, and to let the lumber dry a little bit. I built the entire thing with green pine lumber, full dimension, straight from a local mill. In most cases, especially for the larger dimensions (2x10, 2x12) it was much cheaper to buy the green lumber. Often I would call them and ask for a quantity of boards and they would tell me that it might be a few days because they didn't have enough inventory, so they'd have to cut it.

Not too worried about the twisting, warping, etc. that most seem to be concerned about, it's my fifth "building" with green lumber. First was my timber framed home, then a 16x20 shed which is basically a small 1-car garage. Both are still square and plumb. Next I built two wood sheds, finally the garage. I'd rather build with green lumber than box store garbage any day. I've bought a lot of 2x4's at the box stores and even quality lumber yards and they all exhibit some degree of 'corkscrew' if you don't nail them in place immediately.

 

[North Run Grader]

Ardox nails, usually you will destroy the wood before you get those nails removed. Perfect nail if you are using rough sawn lumber.

 

[KEH]

Solution for green lumber: Dry it. If you have some sort of shelter, sticker lumber and let it dry a few months. If you don't have shelter, get concrete blocks and lay some with the side with holes side ways, solid side up. Stack lumber on them with sticker about 3/4 inch thick about every 2 feet. Make stack wide enough to fit under one sheet of roofing tin. Put weight on tin to keep it from blowing away. Leave for a few months, depending on climate. In areas with little rainfall it will dry quickly. In areas with a lot of rain it takes longer.

Best alternative: Find a mill that will kiln dry your lumber. Relative helped build his daughter a house. He cut white oak trees from his place, took them to a mill where they were sawed, dried, and dressed to tongue and groove flooring. Cost was satisfactory, but I don't know the details. Pine framing lumber can be done the same way.

KEH

 

[Gary in NY]

I built a shop out of green lumber. It's 32x36 with two floors. Believe it or not, it was framed with white oak. An old neighbor of mine had a misunderstanding with a logger, and he thought he was going to get veneer prices for all of the oak he cut. After he found out the logger was only going to give him a fraction of what he was expecting, he refused to sell it to him and sold it to me for even less. I paid a local Amish mill to saw it all. I saved the nice logs and had it sawed into lumber for cabinets, etc. After the foundation was complete, we nailed it into place with ring shank nails and let it dry in place. As expected, some of the lumber did shrink as it dried in place (a 2x4 would shrink to about 1 3/4 x 3 3/4 for example) but the lengths were unaffected and it didn't twist or move. It has worked alright for me and it has been about 20 years.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Believe it or not, it was framed with white oa

I hate to put it this way, but that is a waste of such valuable lumber.

The world supply of white oak is dwindling. They had to really search hard for it to find enough that was big/long enough to rebuild Notre Dame's spire ! White oak takes 50-70 years before it make acorns. Close to 100 before it is harvestable. 200+ years if you want really long timbers.

The US Navy owns a forest in Indiana just so it will have lumber to repair Old Ironsides (USS Constitution) !