Can I MIG with Pure Argon?

[Gringacho]

Been a lurker here for a good bit......

I ran into a guy who was going back into the Navy and happened to be selling some of his personal items from his fab business and I have a few questions.....

I think I got a pretty decent deal on some items and bought the following;

Millermatic 130 XP with Victor Cutskill Single Stage Regulator (Like New) for $210

2R (244 CF) Argon Cylinder completely full of Argon for $200 ( A lot bigger than needed, yet I thought it was a good deal)

So I'm into a little starter Mig welding setup for a little over $400 with a huge bottle of argon.

Is it worth it to Mig weld with the Argon or should I take it to the LWS and trade out for a Mix Gas for around $65?

I hate to waste all the Argon and it would probably last me a couple of years without a fill up.

 

[sberry]

Argon is for welding aluminum, you will need a C25 bottle for solid wire mig.

 

[MoonRise]

Pure argon is used to MIG weld aluminum or to TIG weld almost anything.

Do -not- use pure argon to MIG weld (or attempt to MIG weld) steel.

 

[IndyGarage]

Most of the 230 foot tanks are lease tanks. You won't be able to fill it and get it back.

 

[Gringacho]

Indy.....I have already talked to two LWS about the tank and verified that it was customer owned (2R) and not a lease and that I could exchange it with them w/out problems. Both agreed and said it would be about $60 to exchange for a filled tank.

I also mentioned to them about trading straight up my 240CF tank for a more mobile 150CF tank filled with C25 and they said they would be interested in that also.

I thought I had read somewhere that Argon could be used for Mig Shield Gas on mild steel, yet C25 or CO2 was obviously the gas of choice.

 

[BigMike782]

Argon alone will not give good penetration.

 

[iagsxr]

Not a professional welder but;

Don't see it being an issue, there's mig applications that they use pure argon.

I know a local fab shop runs 90/10 for a lot of things.

It will weld slightly hotter than argon/co2 mix.

Your gas supplier should be able to tell you if there's any other ramifications.

 

[MoonRise]

As I already mentioned, plain argon is used for GTAW (aka TIG) welding of almost anything.

Plain argon is used for GMAW (aka MIG) welding of aluminum.

Want to MIG weld steel of pretty much any 'flavor'? Low carbon steel, high carbon steel, stainless steel, etc, etc? Then you do NOT use pure argon to MIG weld steel.

You can use a 75% argon 25% carbon dioxide mix commonly called C25 for short-circuit transfer welding on 'plain' steel.

You can use plain carbon dioxide for most welding on plain steel, with usually a bit more weld spatter than C25 and a bit 'harsher' arc and a -little- bit more penetration than C25 if your welder can run the needed extra arc voltage with the CO2.

If you are going to MIG weld thin stuff like auto sheet metal and such, then C25 is the 'classic' shielding gas to use.

If you want to MIG weld stainless steel, then usually a different gas mix is used. Commonly tri-mix or for 'bigger' machines then 98-2.

If you want to MIG weld thicker steel with a machine that has more power than the MM130, then different gases would typically be used there as well in order to use the spray-transfer mode instead of the lower-energy short-circuit transafer mode. Two typical choices there would be 98-2 argon-O2 or 95-5 argon-CO2.

Unless you -need- the portability of a smaller tank, then I'd suggest keeping the nice big tank.

The cost to refill it, on a per volume basis, is MUCH lower than the cost to refill a smaller tank. Most of the cost of refilling a tank is not the gas itself (helium and helium blends excepted) but the labor. Filling an 80 ft3 tank here is about $40, and you are filling a 240 ft3 tank for $60. 3x the gas for 1.3-1.5x the raw price, yielding a gas price of 1/2 compared to the smaller 80 ft3 cylinder.

Want more portability for whatever reason? Keep the big 240 ft3 cylinder in the 'shop' and get an 80 ft3 cylinder for portability. A filled 80 ft3 cylinder is about $200 with C25.

http://store.cyberweld.com/shielgascyl8.html

http://www.weldingsuppliesfromioc.com/servlet/the-1614/80-CF-WELDING-CYLINDER/Detail

 

[iagsxr]

Want to MIG weld steel of pretty much any 'flavor'? Low carbon steel, high carbon steel, stainless steel, etc, etc? Then you do NOT use pure argon to MIG weld steel.

So what are the ramifications of using pure argon to mig?

 

[Bigrhamr]

I ran out of 75/25 in the middle of the night once and tried pure Argon. It's been a few years but from what I remember I had to keep cranking up the heat and could never get much penetration, the weld just wanted to lay flat on top of the steel. I use 75/25 for most MIG and either 98/2 or 95/5 for spray and pulse.

+1 on keeping the biggest bottle size you can, it saves a bunch of $ on refills.

 

[atari]

I have run quite a bit of mig with strait argon. It's like the welder is not turned up hot enough and no matter what you do it's never enough. The bead will not lay down and if you don't bevel the **** out of what your welding you will leave a really high beads. We are a tig shop at work but sometimes I would rather mig an oven stand together than take 2 days tigging it. If you have too run it, just bevel your joints about 2 times more than you normally would. Really if it's just a matter of taking the tank in and have it filled get argon/C0 and your all set. Actually, I think mix is cheaper than strait argon.

 

[MoonRise]

So what are the ramifications of using pure argon to mig?

Short answer : Using pure argon to MIG steel results in 'bad' welds.

Longer answer : Using pure argon to MIG steel results in incomplete and lower penetration, poor 'wetting', possibly an incorrect metallurgy of the welded filler, and other 'bad' weld symptoms.

Also, check the filler wire gas mix specs. There are -NO- ER70S-6 (standard solid wire steel MIG wire spec) that call for using 100% argon as the shielding gas when doing GMAW aka MIG on steel. Argon-CO2 blends or plain CO2 or argon-O2 blends for GMAW on regular steel.

See

http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/MIG_handbook/592mig1_1.htm

and

http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/c4200.pdf

for some more info on GMAW, including shielding gases and transfer modes (short-circuit, globular, and spray transfer).

Pure argon -IS- used to MIG aluminum.

Pure argon -IS- used to TIG just about anything.

So that just means the OP has to go out and get a TIG machine.

 

[Gringacho]

So that just means the OP has to go out and get a TIG machine.

Now were talking.....I'd then also have to purchase another cylinder for C25 gas for my MIG needs!

Hopefully Someday when I have the funds....

Seriously though.. I think you have talked me into taking my full 250 CF bottle up to PraxAir and have them exchange me a full bottle of Stargon or C25.

Thanks for all the info on Argon and Mig welding.

 

[Professur]

Now were talking.....I'd then also have to purchase another cylinder for C25 gas for my MIG needs!

Hopefully Someday when I have the funds....

Seriously though.. I think you have talked me into taking my full 250 CF bottle up to PraxAir and have them exchange me a full bottle of Stargon or C25.

Thanks for all the info on Argon and Mig welding.

Or ... jsut get a CO2 tank. I got mine from a place that sells them for aquariums, fire extinguishers and soda fountains. Refilling a 10lbs bottle costs me $13 and since it's liquid instead of compressed gas ... you can carry it about as you like.

 

[slipknot]

everlast has great deals on their tig machines . (im not a dealer or anything like that) i bought a power arc 160 dc stick welder, it's capable of tig ( you already got the gas, just buy the torch regulator.

or trade the cyl for a mix and go weld.

 

[rsanter]

how about sell it or trade it to someone with a TIG

bob

 

[Gringacho]

how about sell it or trade it to someone with a TIG

bob

Currently on CL to try and trade "straight up" for same size cylinder with Mix Gas or the like.

If no bites, I'll weld a little with Argon just to see what it does, then take it down to the LWS and trade them for a bottle of Stargon.

 

[Red Green]

+1 on keeping the biggest bottle size you can, it saves a bunch of $ on refills.

This is good advice. The gas company will give you a smaller tank but they will never let you trade up to a larger tank.

 

[atari]

Or ... jsut get a CO2 tank. I got mine from a place that sells them for aquariums, fire extinguishers and soda fountains. Refilling a 10lbs bottle costs me $13 and since it's liquid instead of compressed gas ... you can carry it about as you like.

Co2? Thats almost shielding gas. I have never actually heard of someone choosing to use straight Co2, mosty its used in heavy construction buy contractors who dont want to spend the money on 80/20. I would say that 100% argon is less than ideal but Co2 is borderline as well. I would go straight argon all day long before I went with Co2 for the stuff I do. I also would not be so quick to throw that liquid filled tank in my trunk. The tank still can see 3k PSI depending on the ambient temps and if the tank ruptures the liquid expands to a gas quite violently. 1 gallon of liquid expands to 74 cubic feet.

 

[Ben Iv]

Nope cant mig weld steel with it, every so often one of my guys comes to me at work and says their welder is running like ****, the first thing i do is look at the bottle, about half the time they have put argon on their mig machine

You want a 75% argon 25%co2 mix

 

[trackwelder]

Co2? Thats almost shielding gas. I have never actually heard of someone choosing to use straight Co2, mosty its used in heavy construction buy contractors who dont want to spend the money on 80/20. I would say that 100% argon is less than ideal but Co2 is borderline as well. I would go straight argon all day long before I went with Co2 for the stuff I do. I also would not be so quick to throw that liquid filled tank in my trunk. The tank still can see 3k PSI depending on the ambient temps and if the tank ruptures the liquid expands to a gas quite violently. 1 gallon of liquid expands to 74 cubic feet.

Co2 works quite well actually. I use co2 and 0.45 in a mm200 with great results.
Co2 is not borderline and is actually the recommened sheilding gas for some welders,

 

[george4]

Co2 works quite well actually. I use co2 and 0.45 in a mm200 with great results.
Co2 is not borderline and is actually the recommened sheilding gas for some welders,

I thought this was especially true with short circuit and gives excellent penetration.
http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/MIG_handbook/592mig4_4.htm

 

[rodm1]

everlast has great deals on their tig machines . (im not a dealer or anything like that) i bought a power arc 160 dc stick welder, it's capable of tig ( you already got the gas, just buy the torch regulator.

or trade the cyl for a mix and go weld.

Since its a newer company and imports from china repair parts in 10 to 20 years might be a problem. Not a long time investment.

 

[TheGrooveking]

Most of the 230 foot tanks are lease tanks. You won't be able to fill it and get it back.

Maybe where you are, but I can buy and get them fill with no problem. The problem lies in if the previous owner leased the tank, then when you bring it in they keep it.

TheGrooveking

 

[atari]

Co2 works quite well actually. I use co2 and 0.45 in a mm200 with great results.
Co2 is not borderline and is actually the recommened sheilding gas for some welders,

If you are building a high-rise apartment building then Co2 is your gas. If you want pretty and penetration then mix is what your after. If given the choice of 100% argon and 100% Co2 in my mig I would go argon every time. It's not ideal no but I can make it work for some things. I would not weld a roll cage but i would burn exaust or a body panel for sure. For a novice it might make some things easier. I do thin work a lot though.

 

[trackwelder]

If you are building a high-rise apartment building then Co2 is your gas. If you want pretty and penetration then mix is what your after. If given the choice of 100% argon and 100% Co2 in my mig I would go argon every time. It's not ideal no but I can make it work for some things. I would not weld a roll cage but i would burn exaust or a body panel for sure. For a novice it might make some things easier. I do thin work a lot though.

I can and have welded everything from sheetmetal to 3/4" plate with Co2 with absolutely no problems. Co2 is just as purtty...only a matter of tuning in the sweet spot. I would rather use flux core in the suitcase welder for the high rise though

 

[Grumpy365]

Ok, the purpose of the gas is to shield the weld/ wire and Argonne is particularly good at providing this shield. Why would a mix be worse than pure. ( I have always welded with mix, because it is cheaper than 100%, but i don't see how pure would be detremental to good penetration).

Can someone explain this to me.

 

[KenS]

If you go with straight CO2 remember to get a compatible regulator/flow meter. A standard 75/25 regulator can freeze up when used with straight CO2.

 

[mjb]

Ok, the purpose of the gas is to shield the weld/ wire and Argonne is particularly good at providing this shield. Why would a mix be worse than pure. ( I have always welded with mix, because it is cheaper than 100%, but i don't see how pure would be detremental to good penetration).

Can someone explain this to me.

This will cover it: Link

Short version: You need a minimum of 8% CO2 to support short arc transfer.

 

[bdkruger1]

Co2? Thats almost shielding gas. I have never actually heard of someone choosing to use straight Co2, mosty its used in heavy construction buy contractors who dont want to spend the money on 80/20. I would say that 100% argon is less than ideal but Co2 is borderline as well. I would go straight argon all day long before I went with Co2 for the stuff I do. I also would not be so quick to throw that liquid filled tank in my trunk. The tank still can see 3k PSI depending on the ambient temps and if the tank ruptures the liquid expands to a gas quite violently. 1 gallon of liquid expands to 74 cubic feet.

Completely backward statement. C02 is fine for MIG, and actually provides BETTER penetration than 75/25. You will see a little bit more spatter with straight C02. This can be greatly reduced with setting the machine properly.

 

[bdkruger1]

And furthermore atari, to say that you would choose 100% argon over straight Co2 shows me that you have never had to do so. Anyone who has ever accidentally grabbed a bottle of 100% argon and put it on knows its not worth a **** for MIG. Not looking for an argument here, but there's A LOT of folks on this board that should not be giving out welding advice. End of rant.

 

[atari]

And furthermore atari, to say that you would choose 100% argon over straight Co2 shows me that you have never had to do so. Anyone who has ever accidentally grabbed a bottle of 100% argon and put it on knows its not worth a **** for MIG. Not looking for an argument here, but there's A LOT of folks on this board that should not be giving out welding advice. End of rant.

Well, that's the thing about advice, take it or leave it. If you would have read the thread you would have known that I am a Tig welder by trade and only have argon at work. I do mig every now and then with 100% argon without issue. I didn't say it was ideal I said it was possible if you do a little more prep work then you would with mix. The OP asked if it was possible to mig with pure argon and in my opinion the answer is yes, it's not ideal but it will work. I would not build a chassis with it but it will work for some things. If you do not agree then don't but just because my opinion is not the same as yours I should not voice mine?

If you know what to expect you can make it work, if it's a surprise it's not going to work.

 

[bdkruger1]

Well, that's the thing about advice, take it or leave it. If you would have read the thread you would have known that I am a Tig welder by trade and only have argon at work. I do mig every now and then with 100% argon without issue. I didn't say it was ideal I said it was possible if you do a little more prep work then you would with mix. The OP asked if it was possible to mig with pure argon and in my opinion the answer is yes, it's not ideal but it will work. I would not build a chassis with it but it will work for some things. If you do not agree then don't but just because my opinion is not the same as yours I should not voice mine?

How do you know that your welds are "without issue"? Have you ever cut one apart and macro etched? radiographed?

Just because you're beveling and filling the bevel 100% doesn't mean that you are getting adequate penetration.

You ARE entitled to your opinion, however when your opinion has been proven to be fundamentally wrong, why would you continue to voice that opinion?

I'll gladly give you an "atta boy" and admit that I am wrong if you can find me WPS that was written proving 100% argon is being utilized with bare wire MIG.

 

[atari]

you are correct, I have never cut and etched one of the argon welds. We save those processes for critical welds, things i would not mig with pure argon. The oven stands I have built have never failed and I built the first one 10 years ago, thats what I mean without issue. I designed them so no weight is being held by a weld other than sway because of the weld process. I have never said it was the right way to do it I only said in my experience It would work given special consideration and if it's what you have to work with.

 

[Professur]

I use Co2 straight for body work, 20ga and thicker. Never had a lick of trouble. I got the CO2 extension to put my C25 regulator on the tank. Adds 4" of brass tube to give the gas a chance to heat up enough to not wreck the regulator. Unfortunately, welding in November, in the shade up here .... it wasn't enough. I've since invested in a dedicated Co2 regulator.

I've also used it for 1/4" lintel plate. Didn't x-ray it ... I cut and etched it. Looked textbook to me. If Co2 is borderline .. either I'm a lot better welder than I thought I was, or my old SP-170T is a gold mine machine.