Cold H2O Ground Qs

[MFortie]

A couple years ago I upgraded our service to a meter pedestal from an old O/H drop (with help from a licensed sparkie - son of a neighbor).

The AHJ (& code, I presume) required a cold water ground from the sub, so I ran an insulated conductor fastened to the eaves around the house to the incoming water line. #6 AWG, IIRC. I needed to get it installed ASAP as I had an inspection and cutover scheduled and couldn’t take time to trench. I installed two ground rods as well per code.

I’m getting ready to re-stucco the house and paint the eaves/trim and I’d like to get the ground conductor off the eaves & side of the house. I’m also going to pour a 4’ wide walkway around the perimeter of the house (just dirt right now).

So my questions are: can I just lay a bare ground conductor in the bottom of the forms before I pour or would it need to be underground? And how deep (or shallow) could I go? Re-terminated on the water line of course.

Or do I need to use conduit U/G? A conduit run would exceed 360 degrees of bends unless I went out into the yard to square off a zig zag.

TIA

 

[75gmck25]

Caveat - I may not fully understand what you have and what you want to do.
Look up the rules for a UFER ground and see if you could embed it as rebar in the new concrete. I am used to seeing a UFER in footings, but I'm not sure if a sidewalk is thick enough to be a proper ground.

 

[mm08822]

A couple years ago I upgraded our service to a meter pedestal from an old O/H drop (with help from a licensed sparkie - son of a neighbor).

The AHJ (& code, I presume) required a cold water ground from the sub, so I ran an insulated conductor fastened to the eaves around the house to the incoming water line. #6 AWG, IIRC. I needed to get it installed ASAP as I had an inspection and cutover scheduled and couldn’t take time to trench. I installed two ground rods as well per code.

I’m getting ready to re-stucco the house and paint the eaves/trim and I’d like to get the ground conductor off the eaves & side of the house. I’m also going to pour a 4’ wide walkway around the perimeter of the house (just dirt right now).

So my questions are: can I just lay a bare ground conductor in the bottom of the forms before I pour or would it need to be underground? And how deep (or shallow) could I go? Re-terminated on the water line of course.

Or do I need to use conduit U/G? A conduit run would exceed 360 degrees of bends unless I went out into the yard to square off a zig zag.

TIA

What is at the meter pedestal now? Just a meter or is there also a main cb?

How many conductors run between the pedestal house panel?

Where are the 2 grd rods located - pedestal or house?

 

[MFortie]

Pedestal: main cb
Conductors: 3
Ground rods: pedestal

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The water line bond should go to the main service panel NOT the subpanel. it should tie in where the GEC(grounding electrode conductor) is connected, which is the main service panel. not sure why they had you run it to the subpanel.

EDIT: i missed the service pedestal info.... in this case, water line bond goes to subpanel in house since main service panel is divorced from house and you should have electrodes at house in addition to electrodes at pedestal

Also, it should be 4-wire from pedestal to house so that was installed incorrectly as well

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Caveat - I may not fully understand what you have and what you want to do.
Look up the rules for a UFER ground and see if you could embed it as rebar in the new concrete. I am used to seeing a UFER in footings, but I'm not sure if a sidewalk is thick enough to be a proper ground.

he is talking about the water line bond NOT a grounding electrode. he already has grounding electrodes at the service panel so he doesnt need another (UFER) grounding electrode.

 

[mm08822]

What is at the meter pedestal now? Just a meter or is there also a main cb?

How many conductors run between the pedestal house panel?

Where are the 2 grd rods located - pedestal or house?

Pedestal: main cb
Conductors: 3
Ground rods: pedestal

The water line bond should go to the main service panel NOT the subpanel. it should tie in where the GEC(grounding electrode conductor) is connected, which is the main service panel. not sure why they had you run it to the subpanel.

This is what I was concerned with. The meter/main pedestal only needed 2 grd rods. Neutral and ground should be bonded (only) here.
It should have been a 4 wire cable to the house sub-panel from pedestal.
The house needs 2 grd rods.
The water line in the house needs to be bonded to the house sub-panel ground.

The inspector was wrong telling you to use the well casing as a grounding electrode for the service b/c that water line enters the house and the sub-panel ground should be bonded to the interior water lines and any other metallic piping.

 

[Junkman]

This thread raises a question for me. What if the incoming water line is plastic from a well, and the entire home is plumbed with PEX. Would you run a ground to the well casing?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

This is what I was concerned with. The meter/main pedestal only needed 2 grd rods. Neutral and ground should be bonded (only) here.
It should have been a 4 wire cable to the house sub-panel from pedestal.
The house needs 2 grd rods.
The water line in the house needs to be bonded to the house sub-panel ground.

The inspector was wrong telling you to use the well casing as a grounding electrode for the service b/c that water line enters the house and the sub-panel ground should be bonded to the interior water lines and any other metallic piping.

i wasnt paying attention earlier when he said pedestal.... thats an important key word here...

so the main service is not on the house....

if the water line coming into the house is metal, then yes it should be bonded to the subpanel.... also need 2 rods at the house subpanel and 4-wire feeder like you stated here....

 

[wyliesdiesels]

OP- the feeder from the pedestal is not correct. should be 4-wire

also should be 2 rods at pedestal and 2 rods at house.

 

[JohnX14]

I've never seen a metal waterline from a well, but I imagine that 50/60 years ago they used metal prior to the evolution of plastic lines. If it is metal, it needs to be part of the grounding electrode system. Which isn't much different, in effect than bonding it. (different principle, but still running a #4/ #6 etc to it)

FWIW, and I don't remember if it was a Massachusetts amendment, or was NEC, but there was one code cycle in '93 or '96 when a well casing was required to be part of the Grounding Electrode System, if there were no other electrodes. (building steel, concrete encase, etc. and ground rods were not a substitute) That is the year I started using concrete encased electrodes.....we could place 20' of #4 bare in the footing, or run a #4 across the basement and hundreds of feet to the well casing. It was a short lived code, and makes me think it was a State amendment

 

[Junkman]

When I added my whole-house generator, I had to separate the grounds and neutrals at the main panel and run a #4 copper ground from the panel to the steel well casing. Along the way, I connected it to 4 ground rods that had been set because that was what the electrical inspector required. I added a bay to the garage, so the outside wall became an inside wall where the original meter was located. There is a ground rod under the original panel, two 8' apart where the original meter was located, and one at the location of the new meter. I had a spool of #4 coated wire, and as long as I cut the insulation away where the clamps were, he was ok with that. This is in CT on the MA border, and the inspector worked in both states at the time.

 

[JohnX14]

What year was this?^^ Insperctor was probably 'out of line', but there isn't much better of a grounding electrode than a steel well casing.

 

[MFortie]

Well, I never said anything about a well casing, so not really sure where that came from.

And it could be four conductors - I was going off foggy memory. I’d have to pull the dead front off to verify. And there might be house ground rods - the sub has been in for years and was fed from a very old meter panel that was removed when the O/H was removed.

And none of the replies have addressed my Q on the grounding conductor under the walkway slab (to the cold water line).

I do know the incoming water line from the storage tank (fed by the well) is PVC - I put it in fifteen years ago. It does transition to galv above grade.

 

[JohnX14]

Sorry, I brought up the well casing as a sidebar point. Nothing to do with OP.

 

[JohnX14]

A couple years ago I upgraded our service to a meter pedestal from an old O/H drop (with help from a licensed sparkie - son of a neighbor).

The AHJ (& code, I presume) required a cold water ground from the sub, so I ran an insulated conductor fastened to the eaves around the house to the incoming water line. #6 AWG, IIRC. I needed to get it installed ASAP as I had an inspection and cutover scheduled and couldn’t take time to trench. I installed two ground rods as well per code.

I’m getting ready to re-stucco the house and paint the eaves/trim and I’d like to get the ground conductor off the eaves & side of the house. I’m also going to pour a 4’ wide walkway around the perimeter of the house (just dirt right now).

So my questions are: can I just lay a bare ground conductor in the bottom of the forms before I pour or would it need to be underground? And how deep (or shallow) could I go? Re-terminated on the water line of course.

Or do I need to use conduit U/G? A conduit run would exceed 360 degrees of bends unless I went out into the yard to square off a zig zag.

TIA

So I'm not clear what you did and why. One initial question is whether your meter pedestal also includes the service disconnect, or is "just a meter" remote from the house. I've done both installations many times. What is a "cold water ground"? Presumably it is either use of a metal undergound water service pipe as a grounding electrode, or it is a simple bonding of an interior water piping system. You ran it around the house/ eaves/ etc. to what cold water pipe, and what did you connect it to? The meter pedestal? The main service disconnect? A subpanel?

You seem to be asking if you can remove the wire going from "somewhere" and replace it with a wire buried in concrete.

Regardless of the circumstances, the answer is highly likely to be "no". (for various reasons)

For starters, a copper wire buried in a walkway surrounding the house is not a grounding electrode. (concrete encased electrode) It has to be "at or near the bottom of a concrete foundation or footing". A walkway doesn't fit this definition.

You want to remove a wire going from somewhere to a water pipe. If the #6/ #4 wire is bonding the water piping system, it can't be removed. If the #6/ #4 wire is connecting to a water pipe used as a grounding electrode, you can't eliminate it.

You should consult a qualified electrician. I'd call the son of your neighbor. With all due respect, I understand that you are trying to make things right, but I'm not sure you have a full understanding of all that is going on.

Short answer - your poured concrete walkway doesn't change or offer any advantage to your current installation.

(Which could use a little more detailed description/ photos)

 

[mm08822]

And it could be four conductors - I was going off foggy memory. I’d have to pull the dead front off to verify. And there might be house ground rods - the sub has been in for years and was fed from a very old meter panel that was removed when the O/H was removed.

And none of the replies have addressed my Q on the grounding conductor under the walkway slab (to the cold water line).

I do know the incoming water line from the storage tank (fed by the well) is PVC - I put it in fifteen years ago. It does transition to galv above grade.

Without knowing what you have currently installed, no one can be sure of a proper answer to give you to meet current code and/or not create some problem.

It's possible you don't even need that ground wire and could eliminate it all together, but details are needed. Real details, not foggy memory.

Pics would help. meter pedestal, w/w/o cover on, sub panel, water pipe connections, grd rod connections.

 

[MFortie]

Granted, I’m not an electrician nor pretending to be. Basically, I’m asking about relocating the existing ground conductor from the house subpanel bonded to the incoming water line from mounted on the eaves, running down the wall to the water line, to either under the walkway slab (uninsulated) or routed through a buried conduit.

The conductor and terminations will be the same as existing; the routing is the question.

As I stated, the work was done under the aegis of a licensed electrician, permitted and inspected (and approved) by the county inspector and local utility company. My assumption, based on the above, is the work was done correctly and to code.

Not trying to reinvent the wheel here; just wondering about re-routing an existing conductor. The rest of the discussion re: conductor count, ground rod location, etc. seems to be moot.

 

[Junkman]

Just do it, and do it so it appears to be correctly done. If you are really concerned, then pull a permit and have it inspected. Or you could just do it and no one will be the wiser unless you start talking about it to your neighbors.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Running a ground wire or bond wire all around the house like that doesnt make sense

Need more details for what this is for