Distributing 200A service

[ishiboo]

I want to service my house from my barn and get rid of the second meter and having a single backup generator for both at the barn. I had planned on a 320 or 400A service to the barn, and then 200A to the house. (100A now is more than enough... but I am installing a 100A electric car receptacle in the new garage.)

I'm only finding Homeline lugs up to 100A though for the neutral bar in the panel, and the 200A breakers I am finding seem to be replacements for older convertible panels and not actual 200A breakers for feeding something.

Is there an easy way to feed 200A? Or should I stick with separate feeds and just bring the generator power over from the barn?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Square-D does make a 200A breaker for the QO line of panels (QU2200). Maximum wire size is 300kcmil, Al or Cu. It takes 4 spaces. I would go with a combination meter mount-load center.

If you want to provide backup up generator power from the barn, you are going to need a generator interlock and I don't know if Square D makes one for a panel that large.

 

[ishiboo]

Square-D does make a 200A breaker for the QO line of panels (QU2200). Maximum wire size is 300kcmil, Al or Cu. It takes 4 spaces. I would go with a combination meter mount-load center.

If you want to provide backup up generator power from the barn, you are going to need a generator interlock and I don't know if Square D makes one for a panel that large.

The ones for Homeline I found were only for convertible 200A panels intended as the main breaker in older panels, not to be used as a 200A feed. Even if that route was acceptable, there are no 200A neutral lugs that I can find?

Not going with a generator interlock... going with a 200A automatic transfer switch.

 

[mm08822]

Since you are looking to feed both house and barn from a generator, a transfer switch is needed to ensure isolation from all POCO lines. I will assume you are planning automatic transfer. Isolation must be provided either thru mechanical interlocks on breakers or automatically with form “C” style DPDT transfer switches.

Best way to do this is to get a 320/400 meter pan at the garage (single service) and feed a 400a transfer switch. From the transfer switch, provide a main panel with 1 cb for the garage and another cb for the house.
Refeed the garage panel as a sub-panel.
Run a new 4 wire feeder to the house and make its panel a sub.
The generator output feeds into the xfer sw.

Not sure what you are referring to with the “100A lugs” and 200A cb’s mentioned. If my hunch is correct of what you are trying to do, you can’t just upgrade the existing house panel main breaker to 200a if the buss isn’t rated for it. It is probably way cheaper to just buy a new 200a panel and switch it out.

 

[ishiboo]

Since you are looking to feed both house and barn from a generator, a transfer switch is needed to ensure isolation from all POCO lines. I will assume you are planning automatic transfer. Isolation must be provided either thru mechanical interlocks on breakers or automatically with form “C” style DPDT transfer switches.

Absolutely that's the plan.

Best way to do this is to get a 320/400 meter pan at the garage (single service) and feed a 400a transfer switch. From the transfer switch, provide a main panel with 1 cb for the garage and another cb for the house.
Refeed the garage panel as a sub-panel.
Run a new 4 wire feeder to the house and make its panel a sub.
The generator output feeds into the xfer sw.

I thought most 320/400A services were split into two 200A panels. You're suggesting a single 400A panel with 200A breakers for each?

Not sure what you are referring to with the “100A lugs” and 200A cb’s mentioned. If my hunch is correct of what you are trying to do, you can’t just upgrade the existing house panel main breaker to 200a if the buss isn’t rated for it. It is probably way cheaper to just buy a new 200a panel and switch it out.

With two 200A panels, I wanted to feed the house with a breaker. Obviously the panel accepts a 200A neutral (2/0 in this case) coming in, but the neutral lugs I can only find up to 100A. So I have no way to get more than 100A OUT of the panel to the house.

I'm not referring to the existing house panel at all. I have already upgraded it to a new 200A panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Have you tried checking with a supply house?

Is Homeline what you currently have in the barn?

Be aware that he house panel will need to be converted to a subpanel which means 4-wire feeder and an isolated neutral bus bar.

Any EGCs, GECs, water and gas line bonds will need to be moved over to a bonded ground bar which may also need to be added.

 

[ishiboo]

Have you tried checking with a supply house?

Is Homeline what you currently have in the barn?

Be aware that he house panel will need to be converted to a subpanel which means 4-wire feeder and an isolated neutral bus bar.

Any EGCs, GECs, water and gas line bonds will need to be moved over to a bonded ground bar which may also need to be added.

The house panel is already a sub panel and all that has been done. I have a 100A disconnect switch outside the house right under the main breaker I installed prior to replacing the panel to make it easier, so the neutral/ground bond is in there. The new service will replace that.

I didn't check with a supply house... I wasn't able to find the parts online.

The barn is currently QO, but it has an old rusty 100A panel that needs to be replaced. But I will be switching over to Homeline for the majority of the work, only reason I would have to swing for QO would be if this was doable in QO but not Homeline.

 

[mm08822]

Absolutely that's the plan.

I thought most 320/400A services were split into two 200A panels. You're suggesting a single 400A panel with 200A breakers for each?

With two 200A panels, I wanted to feed the house with a breaker. Obviously the panel accepts a 200A neutral (2/0 in this case) coming in, but the neutral lugs I can only find up to 100A. So I have no way to get more than 100A OUT of the panel to the house.

I was suggesting a panel similar to those ~8 space distribution panels typically used as part of meter-main combo’s. I’m not finding a small standalone panel like that in 400a unless it’s part of a meter-main combo or 30-40 space size.

Another option is to add a gutter off of the xfer switch and hit the new close-proximity 200a panel in the barn. Then add a 200a cb/disconnect off the gutter for the house. Tap rule would be used here. Wire the house feeder to the disconnect.

A cleaner option is a new 400A panel in the barn fed directly from the xfer switch. Then feed the house off of a 200A cb in it. (Open your wallet for this option!! $$$$)

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

What if you put a 320a meter with a disconnect on outside of barn.
Then you could use a set of double lugs to run one set of feeders to panel in barn,then another set to feed house panel.
Would have a disconnect for both panels at the meter that way and just run a 4 wire service to both of them.
I'd put a panel with main breaker on both ends just for ease of servicing things.

 

[mm08822]

What if you put a 320a meter with a disconnect on outside of barn.
Then you could use a set of double lugs to run one set of feeders to panel in barn,then another set to feed house panel.
Would have a disconnect for both panels at the meter that way and just run a 4 wire service to both of them.
I'd put a panel with main breaker on both ends just for ease of servicing things.

The automatic xfer sw needs to go after the meter so both barn and house have e-power.
Need ocp for each feeder after xfer sw. Tap rule only permits so much distance before required ocp. Barn panel probably no issue to use its main cb, house distance becomes issue even with house panel having a main cb.

 

[ishiboo]

I don't have to have the house and barn on the same transfer switch. But the goal is to consolidate the power management to the barn. It's about 150' away and that will be the logical, quiet place for the house's backup generator.

I would IDEALLY like to have the power for the house controlled from the service room of the barn, and not have an outdoor load center... but I guess that might not happen.

 

[mm08822]

2 xfer switches running in parallel could be very costly and doesnt make for consolidation. Only the barn would have any load shedding capability due to its proximity to the barn panel.

I suggest you first price out different hardware scenarios.

 

[ishiboo]

2 xfer switches running in parallel could be very costly and doesnt make for consolidation. Only the barn would have any load shedding capability due to its proximity to the barn panel.

I suggest you first price out different hardware scenarios.

The barn doesn't need to be on the backup generator. I might just get one, at least to start.

 

[Bert_]

Do you want an manual transfer switch or automatic?

Ronk makes some nice 400a manual transfer switches. Put it right after the meter and run your feeders directly off the load side lugs. These transfer switches have lugs with 4 holes that fit either 300 or 350 mcm per hole. These transfer switches are service rated and can be installed right after a meter socket.

They make one with a meter built in also but you would have to check and see if it was approved by your utility. It does make for a clean install, meter and transfer switch in one box.

You could do a similar set-up with an automatic switch.

I would not put in a big panel and feed each building with it's own breaker. It gets expensive to do it right and you still need to add a transfer switch. It also makes it more difficult to add onto in the future.

For a service like this I usually have one main disconnect, with either multiple lugs on the load side or I will put in a terminal box, and tap off of it with smaller wires to feed each building. As long as the runs are outside you can run smaller wire without any extra breakers at the service. Some one above mentioned distance limits for taps, there are NO distance limits if it is outside.

 

[mm08822]

The barn doesn't need to be on the backup generator. I might just get one, at least to start.

If the barn is out of scope, then that simplifies things quickly and from a cost perspective.

Use a 320a meter pan with dual lugs. One set feeds the new 200a barn panel. It is a main panel.
Second set of lugs feeds xfer sw at barn for house feeder. It is also a main panel. Run 4 wire feed to house from xfer sw. Gen connects into xfer sw. Xfer has a main cb to kill poco power to manully exercise gen if desired.

 

[Norcal]

If a automatic transfer switch is used, the generator must be capable of handling the entire load see 702.4(B)(2).

 

[mm08822]

If a automatic transfer switch is used, the generator must be capable of handling the entire load see 702.4(B)(2).

Which can easily include the use of load shedding modules to adjust the connected load.