Draining battery.

[scott4]

Optima Red Top. I've been tracking down a draining issue on my battery. Today, Advance ran their test and determined the battery to be "OK." I came back after a short charging session, to have another tech run it again. "OK".

After this, I disconnected it from the car to measure its ability to hold a charge - again, completely disconnected.

This battery was partially charged to 11.90 volts. After a few hours (roughly 4), it drained to 11.87. A few more hours (again, roughly 4), it drained to 11.84 volts.

I've been trying to see where this power was going, and this battery drain is happening while its completely disconnected.

Is this an internal discharge? This battery is still (not for long) under warranty. Is this a warranty issue?

 

[hammergodthor]

Sounds like an internal short?? Is the battery warm compared to surrounding temp.?

 

[scott4]

Sounds like an internal short?? Is the battery warm compared to surrounding temp.?

To my hand-o-meter, it feels fine. Its not exactly a calibrated instrument, though.

 

[xwarp]

.03 volt drop after 4 hours, .06 after 8.

what meter are you using to see this. i ask because unless you have the meter leads bolted to the battery terminals, the meter is calibrated beyond tenths, i'd have to ask why the drop is an issue?

i'm just curious.

 

[scott4]

.03 volt drop after 4 hours, .06 after 8.

what meter are you using to see this. i ask because unless you have the meter leads bolted to the battery terminals, the meter is calibrated beyond tenths,

i'm just curious.

Multitester. Nothing particularly fancy. Equus 3320 Auto-Ranging Digital Multimeter

I'm also doing this a few times at each measurement and reproducing my readings. They're consistent.

i'd have to ask why the drop is an issue?

Battery losing charge is an issue when I try to drive the car. Over the span of a couple of days, voltage drop is an issue. I've been focusing on drain from the car. I haven't noticed drain while it was unplugged until now.

 

[xwarp]

i can only give you the benifit of the doubt on the meter accuracy, but i would not trust it. not when the specs for that on in the 20vdc range is ± 10mv (0.8% of reading + 5 digits).

charging system in good shape?

 

[scott4]

i can only give you the benifit of the doubt on the meter accuracy, but i would not trust it. not when the specs for that on in the 20vdc range is ± 10mv (0.8% of reading + 5 digits).

charging system in good shape?

Charging system is in good shape.

The voltage is still trending downward and the battery still loses volts. Besides, I'm not providing mv as a figure here. Good enough, really, and I don't days to give a data set that might increase the accuracy into less than 10millivolts. Its not particularly necessary.

About the battery. Why is it losing voltage at this rate - while disconnected? Is this a problem with the battery?

 

[xwarp]

Charging system is in good shape.

The voltage is still trending downward and the battery still loses volts. Besides, I'm not providing mv as a figure here. Good enough, really, and I don't days to give a data set that might increase the accuracy into less than 10millivolts. Its not particularly necessary.

About the battery. Why is it losing voltage at this rate - while disconnected? Is this a problem with the battery?

could be any number of things given the voltage range and time you are talking.

ambient temperature of the battery.
composition of the battery.
age of the battery.
if connected, acessories running. ecu current draw. etc.

batteries don't hold a constant charge forever and certainly can't charge themselves albeit, they will discharge even just sitting in a box.

honestly speaking, and in my opinion, i wouldn't be chasing down something like that until i was seeing at least several hundred milivolts over a shorter time.

you stated that your charging system is in good shape, then how are you losing a charge while driving?

 

[scott4]

then how are you losing a charge while driving?

Not talking about while driving. This is while sitting and the battery removed from the car.

I have problems with a dead battery when it sits for a week.

batteries don't hold a constant charge forever

Not trying to claim this either. At this rate of discharge, you can see the difference between, say, sitting for 5 or 8 days.

if connected

Like I mentioned above, this is not about it being connected. I have tested and been seeking my mysterious power drop. I removed an offending unit by testing the vehicle's power draw. The problem persisted.

I can now see the battery itself bleeding down, while disconnected.

honestly speaking, and in my opinion, i wouldn't be chasing down something like that until i was seeing at least several hundred milivolts over a shorter time.

What if your car sits for a week? Mine does. Is this normal? Is this something for a warrantee? At a week at this rate, were talking about more than 1.25 volts.

 

[xwarp]

Multitester. Nothing particularly fancy. Equus 3320 Auto-Ranging Digital Multimeter

I'm also doing this a few times at each measurement and reproducing my readings. They're consistent.

Battery losing charge is an issue when I try to drive the car. Over the span of a couple of days, voltage drop is an issue. I've been focusing on drain from the car. I haven't noticed drain while it was unplugged until now.

apologies if i come across as an *** for quoting post number 5 and high lighting.

are you saying the car won't start after the .06 vdc drop?

does the car start after the .06 vdc drop?

see, after a week of sitting, it won't be the drop of 1.25 vdc that won't start the car, it'll be the lack of current behind the voltage that will not start the car.

you do realize that if you car requires 500cca to engage the starter and rotate the crank while providing a spark, you could get away with a 400 amp battery, but you'd kill it pretty quickly.

600cca, you'd be fine. if your battery is shorting internally, you'd know it within hours, not days or months.

 

[scott4]

apologies if i come across as an ***

I wouldn't worry about that. The problem is when I'm trying to drive. Yesterday morning - car no el starto.

are you saying the car won't start after the .06 vdc drop?

Battery was at 11.45 volts yesterday morning. (Yes, I checked). As in, I am mentioning a time frame much greater than 8 hours. 8 hours is dataset I have available to me to measure voltage drop of the battery disconnected from everything. The effected time frame is something closer to 21 times that value: 168 hours of inactivity.

Here's yesterday morning. 11.45 volts.

rew-rew-rrr--::click:: ::click::

Then 11.19 volts. (yes, this drop from 11.45 to 11.19 is from the failed start) The most important value is that I started at 11.45 volts

if your battery is shorting internally, you'd know it within hours, not days or months.

Alright. WTF is happening here. Are you saying this level of voltage drop is normal?

 

[xwarp]

I would take that battery and have it load tested. Putting a meter on it and seeing greater than 10 volts means nothing if there is a bad cell and it can't deliver enough current.

Oh, and i am saying that when it comes to electricity in homes and vehicles, my experience has been give or take 2 volts dc, 5 vac is normal.

 

[scott4]

I would take that battery and have it load tested.

Advance ran their test and determined the battery to be "OK." I came back after a short charging session, to have another tech run it again. "OK".

 

[xwarp]

Advance ran their test and determined the battery to be "OK." I came back after a short charging session, to have another tech run it again. "OK".

did they just connect a hand held meter to it, or did they actually put it on the test station and load it down?

starter solenoid shorting out on you?

 

[scott4]

did they just connect a hand held meter to it, or did they actually put it on the test station and load it down?

starter solenoid shorting out on you?

What I saw, it was a hand held meter.

Starts up fine with a jump.

 

[xwarp]

sounds like you need to replace the battery.

 

[scott4]

sounds like you need to replace the battery.

Ok. I would like that.

So, whats the smart way of dealing with this at the store? I did get told, twice, that it was fine.

I have my warranty info. This is within the warranty period.
I was told yesterday that the battery was fine with the "handheld" device.

I ***ume that I ask that it be load tested on the test station and state my issues. Anything particularly dumb about that or missing from that plan?

 

[xwarp]

take it back and tell them that even though they stated the battery is good with their meter, that you'd like it load tested. if they test it and it good, your problem might simply be just dirty connections between the cables and the posts.

 

[scott4]

take it back and tell them that even though they stated the battery is good with their meter, that you'd like it load tested. if they test it and it good, your problem might simply be just dirty connections between the cables and the posts.

Unusually clean and corrosion free, those connections. i haven't tested it, but its highly unlikely.

What is peculiar to me is the rate of voltage drop, whilst unconnected.

 

[otis66]

Try cleaning the battery with baking soda. Then check.

 

[scott4]

Try cleaning the battery with baking soda. Then check.

Ok.

No dice

 

[Frank The Plumber]

Yeah they need to load test the battery, the meter thing is not going to cut it. If you google Optima's you will see a lot of stories about different problems that they have.

 

[scott4]

Yeah they need to load test the battery, the meter thing is not going to cut it. If you google Optima's you will see a lot of stories about different problems that they have.

Gotcha.

Reading here and elsewhere, i suspect my charger *****. Called optima, bought a CTEK.

I suspect this will get sorted out. Ill follow the advice on the load test.

 

[Outlawmws]

11.5 volts (roughly) is NOT a fully charged battery. 2.2V per cell X 6 cells = 13.2 you are short nearly 2 V = one cell has probably sulfated or partly shorted out. There is a reason the charging system puts out near 14.5 volts...

Fully charged a good battery will show above 12 V. anything much less and the draw of cranking the starter will draw it below minimum threshold for the starter motor to do it's thing.

 

[scott4]

11.5 volts (roughly) is NOT a fully charged battery. 2.2V per cell X 6 cells = 13.2 you are short nearly 2 V = one cell has probably sulfated or partly shorted out. There is a reason the charging system puts out near 14.5 volts...

Fully charged a good battery will show above 12 V. anything much less and the draw of cranking the starter will draw it below minimum threshold for the starter motor to do it's thing.

Thanks for the info

 

[crewchief888]

last 2 optima red tops i had did the same thing after a couple years.

finally pitched the last one in a fit of rage.

i'll never buy another optima

 

[tarbellb]

optima switched their manufacturing plant from Denver CO to Mexico in the last few years. good friend of mine who works there said that the quality has suffered since then.
have them load test, then get the warranty.

 

[bhclark]

I just exchanged a 2 year old Optima due to a dead cell. It acted just like the one you are describing.

 

[scott4]

Stuff came up. Will go tomorrow. The CTEK charger was suggested by optima. Works well.

Data I just came up with.


Time-Volts
0.05 -12.44
0.3 --12.35
1 --- 12.31
2 --- 12.28
3 --- 12.25
4 --- 12.24
5 --- 12.23
6 --- 12.22
7 --- 12.21
8 --- 12.2
9 --- 12.2
10 -- 12.2
30 -- 12.16
60 -- 12.14

edit: time in minutes

 

[rhandwor]

Use a 12 volt test light connect between ground wire and negative battery ground. If it lights up brightly you have a good drain. Unplug fuses until the light goes out. Then unplug one item at a time on the circuit. Its better to use a DVOM set to amps for a better check.
Remember under dash lights have a timer and you have to wait until the draw drops.
Do this circuit last sometimes the alternator will have an internal drain.

 

[scott4]

Use a 12 volt test light connect between ground wire and negative battery ground. If it lights up brightly you have a good drain. Unplug fuses until the light goes out. Then unplug one item at a time on the circuit. Its better to use a DVOM set to amps for a better check.
Remember under dash lights have a timer and you have to wait until the draw drops.
Do this circuit last sometimes the alternator will have an internal drain.

The data is from an unconnected battery. It is not hooked into the car.

 

[scott4]

Battery warrantied.

 

[chriswin3]

11.5 volts (roughly) is NOT a fully charged battery. 2.2V per cell X 6 cells = 13.2 you are short nearly 2 V = one cell has probably sulfated or partly shorted out. There is a reason the charging system puts out near 14.5 volts...

Fully charged a good battery will show above 12 V. anything much less and the draw of cranking the starter will draw it below minimum threshold for the starter motor to do it's thing.

12.6v is a fully charged battery (2.1 x 6). As stated previously, it is the Amps that start a car, not the volts.

An easy to perform light load test as home would be to connect your DMM to the battery and turn your high beams, rear defogger on and any other accessories that will draw current. You will be looking to see how fast the voltage of the battery drops while being loaded down.

Do this with the car off.

 

[kythri]

I just went through this same issue with one of my yellow-tops. EXACTLY the same. Charge it overnight, starts up, drains throughout the day, sluggishly starts in the evening, dead the next morning.

Knecht's replaced under the warranty without a hassle with a new one, and the issue is gone. I'd ask for the manager.

 

[bhclark]

All I can tell you scott is to keep going to different Advance stores until you find one who will take care of you.

That battery is defective.

You could always OVERCHARGE it until it goes bad.......I'm sure there are ways to make a cell or two go bad, probably just need to google it.

 

[Greatbear]

I used to be a big fan of Optima batteries, but in recent years the things have become totally unreliable. In almost all cases, between my own vehicles and friend's, the exact same problem as you describe occurs. The battery will self-discharge starting at maybe a week, and in no time it will not even last overnight. In once case one cell actually melted the case in one spot at the top of the cell. Most batteries were replaced under warranty, but I will no longer recommend or install an Optima in anything, and once the three I have currently die off, they will be replaced with Odyssey/DieHard Platinum or Deka AGM batteries. Ever since Optima production was shifted to Mexico, the batteries have become practically worthless.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Now that your issue is resolved... What kind of vehicle was it in...?

 

[GoBlue]

I have been an interstate dealer for a long time and honestly dont think i have ever had one come back to me. A friend of mine deals in AC delco and hes happy as well. I have seen a number of issues with optimas. Enough that i wont recommend one no matter how cool they look.

 

[bhclark]

I bought my last battery (AC Delco)from the local Buick Dealer. Same price as the auto parts stores with a better warranty.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Enough that i wont recommend one no matter how cool they look.

Funny, I had to replace my factory battery and I requested the Optima battery to the Auto Zone parts guy...he said no!!! lol

He then explained that they were expensive and not very reliable unlike all the commercials you see about them. So I left the store with a Duralast with amazing warranty. Not much to look at...but sure does the job!!