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Floor Coatings 101: Learn From Our Mistakes!!!

BillyG

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Joined
May 25, 2008
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9
:lol_hittiFLOOR COATINGS 101: LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES!!!
Thank you all for your helpful remarks regarding the lingering odor from a newly installed floor coating system, a decorative polyaspartic polyurea under that topic on this blog site ("Lingering ODOR polyaspartic polyurea decorative.") We learned several things from our experience in our floor coating system failure. Perhaps we can help others to avoid a miserable, on-going problem:
1. The customer should consider doing intensive research regarding the manufacturer, the flooring contractor and the type of floor coating system that is being recommended. Know who specifically will stand behind the product and the work to be performed. Get a clear idea of what remediation efforts are to be offered you, at what expense, should the floor system not meet expectations or completely fail, as happened in our case. I believed that we did the necessary research and accepted the local contractor’s planned suggestions for a new decorative polyaspartic polyurea floor coating system. I believed that I had established a working relationship with the local contractor who promised me a floor that would elicit “wow” whenever it was described. The only problem was that I learned AFTER the installation and AFTER I started complaining about the offensive, lingering odor present within our garage that the local contractor admitted that he had switched manufacturers and flooring systems, unbeknownst to me, from the one that had been proposed to me. The ‘ol bait and switch” and I thought I was more astute!
2. The customer should verify and thoroughly discuss the exact project plan that is envisioned by the local contractor/manufacturer, such as products to be used, qualifications and experience of the floor coating installers, the reputation of the manufacturer and how it handles post-installation problems or product failure; the amount of product planned for the project, the planned mixing methodology and timeline of the project, ensure that the mix ratios have been logically planned and mathematically confirmed; obtain and review product material safety data sheets, environmental data sheets and the technical data safety sheets; get a sense of the working knowledge of the class of chemical compounds being used, how volatile they are, what hazards may be present during or after installation, what the local contractor knows about the chemicals and the precautions, if any, that employed.
3. The customer should carefully read and understand the manufacturer’s product warranty and liability declarations; evaluate the fine print in the local contractor’s contract and disclosures and warranties. Currently, our whole free-standing, new construction garage is a chemical waste dump site and is completely unable to be inhabited.
Murphy’s Law seemed to govern all that was associated with our floor coating installation……
a. The flooring system that was installed was not authorized by us.
b. The floor coating installation has failed due to improper mixing of the three chemicals
c. At more than one month post installation, the manufacturer has refused to remediate our floor coating installation failure that has proven to be a human health hazard; the local contractor has no clue as to what has occurred.
d. For the weeks post installation, we have first hand experienced that this manufacturer has refused to stand behind their product or recommended product usage; the manufacturer has refused to send any of their representatives to the site.
e. We determined after the post-installation problem that the local contractor did not understand the class of chemical compounds he was using, had just switched to this manufacturer’s chemical products and disclosed otherwise; the local contractor did not possess the MSDS, EDS or TDS for these products:lol_hitti that included polyaspartic polyureas and PM acetate, a solvent reducer; the local contractor still represents on his web site another well-known and respected type of flooring system that I had planned to have installed!
f. We experienced the manufacturer’s recent response to our serious problem that has caused asthmatic respiratory problems: the manufacturer sent us a letter from their chief litigation counsel cautioning us that any further contact by us to the manufacturer should be made to the manufacturer’s headquarters legal department, instead of offering any help to us from their sales, technical or chemical staff. In other words, hostility, callous disregard for human health and property and legal posturing were the only offerings! It seems that they are begging us to hire an aggressive litigation counsel to resolve our dilemma!
g. We wish we had found this blog before initiating our project. There is a wealth of helpful information here. We would have been happy with the experienced senior members from this blog to complete our garage flooring project. Timing is everything!
h. Will provide follow-up as our remediation begins……
 
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UnionWelder

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May 24, 2008
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Your post is great and very helpfull but incomplete.who did you used what manufacturer etc? People come here for help and their maybe people who are ordering this product or hiring this contractor.
 

Fuller

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Feb 10, 2008
Messages
87
Location
St Pete FL
It's hard to believe these guys won't just grind it off and do it over. I've screwed up jobs before (well the hired help actually did it for me) but you have to do the right thing no matter what it costs.

On the flip side of the coin I've had customers who were borderline nut cases looking for insignificant little blemishes. You have to make them happy too, but it's not so clear cut.

When I started my business I made a firm rule for myself and everyone else who works with me: you can never say "It's just a garage". Once you've said that, you pretty much negate the whole premise of your business. If it was "just a garage" the owners would be happy with their neighbor's kitchen cabinets hung on the wall and a dingy dirty floor.

And then where would I be?
 
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BillyG

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May 25, 2008
Messages
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Dear Friends of this Blog,
I live in Florida and that should exclude many contractors; the manufacturer is global and unfortunately only until I obtain further professional advice, I cannot reveal the manufacturer yet but no doubt I will when I am given the OK to forewarn many unsuspecting customers. Even contractors would want to know who NOT to deal with regarding this manufacturer's products and business practices regarding problems with their products. One would think that when things go way south, that’s when the manufacturer should step up to the plate and bring in their experts! It would have been so normal! With this manufacturer, the way I have been treated with open hostility.....you are really on your own!
 

HiHoSilver

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Mar 8, 2008
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Eleanor, WV
billyG......

sorry to hear of the troubles.....

and you are right, there is a wealth of information on this site....

hope everything works out in the end
 

SC-Eric

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Oct 22, 2007
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Spartanburg, SC
I've been trying to help BillyG out a bit with this. He is wise not to disclose the manufacturer because they are brutal bullies! They have lawyers on staff and more money than most of us. This isn't exactly the first time I've heard this same story! I've heard stories of some who have sued and won... and... was told later that... Sometimes you still lose when you win.

Just for the record... it wasn't us that would treat someone this way!
 

Dave88LX

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Nov 25, 2006
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York, PA
Phew. ;) Good to hear...I've got 20+ gallons of your stuff sitting in my garage right now to set up.
 

67 455 Bird ragtop

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Melbourne, FL
I've been trying to help BillyG out a bit with this. He is wise not to disclose the manufacturer because they are brutal bullies! They have lawyers on staff and more money than most of us. This isn't exactly the first time I've heard this same story! I've heard stories of some who have sued and won... and... was told later that... Sometimes you still lose when you win.

Just for the record... it wasn't us that would treat someone this way!


VEry true. Eric and the folks at Wolverine were GREAT to work with. ANd when I have MY SELF INDUCED problem they helped me come up with a reasonable solution. My floor is now finished and looks GREAT!!!
 

twostory

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Dec 23, 2005
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Duluth, Georgia
2. The customer should verify and thoroughly discuss the exact project plan that is envisioned by the local contractor/manufacturer, such as products to be used, qualifications and experience of the floor coating installers, the reputation of the manufacturer and how it handles post-installation problems or product failure; the amount of product planned for the project, the planned mixing methodology and timeline of the project, ensure that the mix ratios have been logically planned and mathematically confirmed; obtain and review product material safety data sheets, environmental data sheets and the technical data safety sheets; get a sense of the working knowledge of the class of chemical compounds being used, how volatile they are, what hazards may be present during or after installation, what the local contractor knows about the chemicals and the precautions, if any, that employed.

Only 1% of the population would do this much research & checking. So while this is great advice, most of the consumers would never do this. I am that 1% and will end up doing my own floor someday, partially due to the inability to find a "trust worthy" contractor.

Bottom line, find a contractor that has done hundreds of floors, go inspect at least three(3) of his previous jobs, call his insurance company to get a written notice that he is insured and verify his company's finanical status (is he behind on his bills)

If you do the above, you will probably be okay, but you never really know.

I have had several "contractors" never call me back after I requested who their insurance was with? "oh yea, were insured", but they do not seem to know with who?

As alway, buyer beware.
 

thegarageguy

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Even though your right to do the research, I hesitate to form a proper opinion because I and no one else on this board knows the facts. We are only hearing one side. For all we know the client is a borderline nut case. Or it can be the fact that the installer screwed up the mix and blamed the manufacturer. So this wouldn't make the manufacturer at fault. Plus, if it was a "bad" batch from the manufacturer, they would have a slew of complaints and failures where they would need to correct asap. I could understand why the manufacturer may not want to be bothered with this. Then again, I don't know all the facts.

Show pictures and name the contractors name. If its as bad as you say then its a free country, explain your experience. You can't be held liable for letting people know your experience with a company. If that was the case, ebay, angies list, craigs list and so on would be out of business. Come clean!

As for insurance, any legitimate company has to have insurance and should be able to provide you with a certificate of insurance. I usually have my insurance company send one out after we have recieved the contract and deposit.
 

700jfm

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Messages
383
Im lost here, are you and the neighbor the same person.:spit: I know, we can guess and you can just quote the one that gets it right. I'll go first (U coat it)
 

AlphaGarage

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I mentioned in another thread that it might be a good idea to order your own materials, even if a contractor was going to do the install. My advice was based on the experiences of large users, many who have their own paint lockers etc. They stock their own materials so that they don't need to worry about a contractor applying material other than is spec'd in their agreement.

Some replied that doing that was going a bit far, and eventually I agreed that it might be a bit much for a home owner.

However, as we see here, the old switcheroo is alive and well. I'm certain that the installers who take the time to post and share their knowledge on this forum are responsible and above board, but the sad truth is that there are many contractors out there who are not above promising one level of material and then installing some sub standard or left over product. Clearly it happens.

A floor system is something that you may only do once, there aren't a lot of guys out there to turn to, recommendations may be tough to come by, and testimonials are cherry picked.

I know when I was building spec homes I bought our own carpet and paints all the time, because it was the only way I could rest assured that I was getting what I wanted. I know that sounds harsh, but once burned...

It's just tough to vet contractors for specialized fields. Eric and I are working on building a list of floor coating specialists, and you'd be surprised by the lack of good info out there.


There is the argument that it's best to let the contractor use products that he's familiar with, and there's some validity with that. But much of the install is in the prep, and the prep requirements for most epoxies are similar, if not identical. We've sold to a lot of DIYers, guys who have never handled any epoxy coating, much less ours. yet they've had great results. The problems that have cropped up are mostly of the generic DIY type - that is problems with the basics, not with the specific coating being used. I would question the capability of any experienced contractor who has problems with our system. If they do have a problem, they'd probably have the same problem with any 2 part coating. The instructions are in English, first timers have had great success with them and the system, it's not that difficult.

Again, just from the content of the posts of some the contractors here I'd trust them to do my floors (with Wolverine epoxies of course:)). But take my chances on some guy out of the yellow pages? Not more than I need to. I'd review the product info, go through the application instructions, keep an eye on their work, and order my own product or at least spec the product by name and carefully confirm that it was being used. You must look out for yourself. Same as it ever was.
 
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AlphaGarage

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As for insurance, any legitimate company has to have insurance and should be able to provide you with a certificate of insurance. I usually have my insurance company send one out after we have recieved the contract and deposit.

When we were doing residential construction, paperwork from subs was a major hassle. Liability insurance, workman;'s comp, local licenses, it goes on and on. I alway thought that there might be a good business in being a clearing house for that exchange of info. Sub signs up, sends in the paperwork once, and they funnel it all to the G.C.s. as needed One stop shopping.
 
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BillyG

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May 25, 2008
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Even though your right to do the research, I hesitate to form a proper opinion because I and no one else on this board knows the facts. We are only hearing one side. For all we know the client is a borderline nut case. Or it can be the fact that the installer screwed up the mix and blamed the manufacturer. So this wouldn't make the manufacturer at fault. Plus, if it was a "bad" batch from the manufacturer, they would have a slew of complaints and failures where they would need to correct asap. I could understand why the manufacturer may not want to be bothered with this. Then again, I don't know all the facts.

Show pictures and name the contractors name. If its as bad as you say then its a free country, explain your experience. You can't be held liable for letting people know your experience with a company. If that was the case, ebay, angies list, craigs list and so on would be out of business. Come clean!

As for insurance, any legitimate company has to have insurance and should be able to provide you with a certificate of insurance. I usually have my insurance company send one out after we have recieved the contract and deposit.

With all due respect, there allways 3 sides of every story. Yours, theirs and the truth. We are only hearing your side. How do we know that what you are claiming is actually true? So far no pics. You claim a human health hazard..... Where is your proof? Maybe you are just a pain in the *** customer who made up a wierd complaint to avoid paying your final bill. We don't really know because you wont name names. If this is such a health hazard like you claim, there's gotta be at least 1000 local lawyers in the ready to file a suit for you.

Name names, show pictures and file a suit. Until then I will reserve judgement.
thegarageguy
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Location: NJ Re: Lingering ODOR polyaspartic polyurea decorative flooring
________________________________________
With all due respect, there allways 3 sides of every story. Yours, theirs and the truth. We are only hearing your side. How do we know that what you are claiming is actually true? So far no pics. You claim a human health hazard..... Where is your proof? Maybe you are just a pain in the *** customer who made up a wierd complaint to avoid paying your final bill. We don't really know because you wont name names. If this is such a health hazard like you claim, there's gotta be at least 1000 local lawyers in the ready to file a suit for you.

Name names, show pictures and file a suit. Until then I will reserve judgement.

thegarageguy
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Posts: 149
Location: NJ Re: Floor Coatings 101: Learn From Our Mistakes!!!
________________________________________
Even though your right to do the research, I hesitate to form a proper opinion because I and no one else on this board knows the facts. We are only hearing one side. For all we know the client is a borderline nut case. Or it can be the fact that the installer screwed up the mix and blamed the manufacturer. So this wouldn't make the manufacturer at fault. Plus, if it was a "bad" batch from the manufacturer, they would have a slew of complaints and failures where they would need to correct asap. I could understand why the manufacturer may not want to be bothered with this. Then again, I don't know all the facts.

Show pictures and name the contractors name. If its as bad as you say then its a free country, explain your experience. You can't be held liable for letting people know your experience with a company. If that was the case, ebay, angies list, craigs list and so on would be out of business. Come clean!

As for insurance, any legitimate company has to have insurance and should be able to provide you with a certificate of insurance. I usually have my insurance company send one out after we have recieved the contract and deposit.

Hi thegarageguy:
Thanks for your thoughtful, illuminating and humanistic postings. You sound very much like the manufacturer of our new floor coating! I mean it might be challenging to have an intelligent, coherent and logical conversation with someone whose personality exudes from this blog at about the same parts per million as our new floor coating off-gasses volatile organic compounds.
By your photo on this blog site, thegarageguy, it looks like you live "on the edge." So….let’s cut right to the chase: I will offer you the same amount I paid in-full 6 weeks ago, on the day of my new floor installation, about $7 K+, if you can endure a single night in my new garage. I will provide you with a handful of wax candles and a cigarette lighter just so you have the option for lighting your way, if you are fast enough, toward one of the 8 exit options from this garage where the air is laden with 100% volatile and flammable chemical compounds. Good luck or your safety! And by the way, just so you can plan ahead, there are two separate exit doors, including an industrial-sized overhead garage door…. and then there’s always one of the 6 windows. The $7K pot should more than cover your trip expenses down from the state of New Jersey, the Garden State.
Also, thegarageguy, it’s just so difficult, even with today’s most advanced cameras, to take JPEGS of VOCs or chemically-induced asthma; but here are a couple photos of our local area’s first response HAZMAT team inside and outside our long anticipated, new garage with its newly installed floor coating. HAZMAT was called at 3 weeks post installation because the manufacturer and the local contractor both refused to reveal the true nature of my “lingering odor” to which I was repeatedly exposed. HAZMAT identified a hazardous VOC situation and cautioned against humans or animals occupying this building, where PM acetate solvent reducer had been recommended and was used at 25% concentration by the local contractor.
A Ph.D. organic chemical expert, after evaluating this site in person, advised that this chronic, overwhelming off-gassing could go on for many years due to PM acetate’s very slow evaporation rate and the likelihood that excessive solvent got trapped below the surface coat.
There are also a couple other photos of the tacky floor surface area, including one picture showing 1 of 24 tire tread patch marks left behind by 6 cars that were removed just prior to the HAZMAT team’s visit.
Also, garageguy, industrial hygienist qualitative and quantitative air sampling testing results are pending, so that when the floor coating is ground off very soon, human safety can be proven through re-testing the air quality to avoid any further chemical re-exposure to hazardous re-emissions of VOCs……
The only purpose of my postings has been to inform unsuspecting consumers of unexpected, adverse results with what I thought would be a "simple" decorative floor coating for my special garage project.... and I thought I had all my bases covered! I don't plan to sue but I would like to occupy my garage someday again with a nice, 0% VOC decorative floor coating. Stay tuned...:lol_hitti
http://s303.photobucket.com/albums/nn139/BillyG101/
 

ni[x]it

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I have this sneaking suspision that BillyG lives in his parents basement while wearing a Tin Foil hat and listening to Alex Jones.
 

AlphaGarage

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Check out the pics of the HAZMAT team - those sure don't look like tin foil hats they're wearing.

As far as a basement is concerned - some toxic and/or combustible fumes are lighter than air, and others seek the lowest level because they're heavier. So regardless of where in your house you listen to Alex Jones, it's probably a good idea to avoid using products that can produce dangerous atmospheric conditions whenever possible. Especially ones that can linger for weeks.
 
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700jfm

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Quote from BillyG first post.
Greetings,
I am a new member to this site. My neighbor had a polyaspartic polyurea floor coating professionally put down a month ago.

Quote from BillyG today.
it looks like you live "on the edge." So….let’s cut right to the chase: I will offer you the same amount I paid in-full 6 weeks ago, on the day of my new floor installation, about $7 K+, if you can endure a single night in my new garage.

He is his own neighbor Or is his neighbor him. :eyecrazy: Which one pays the 7K.
 
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AlphaGarage

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He is his own neighbor Or is his neighbor him. :eyecrazy: Which one pays the 7K.

Simple - they use the government model... Ned takes $7k from Ned, sends it to Washington, there they waste half of it, use half of the remaining funds to study the mating habits of the Amazon Stink Bug, and send the final $1.75k back to Ned.

2weihae.jpg
 
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700jfm

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Messages
383
BillyG; I will offer you the same amount I paid in-full 6 weeks ago said:
http://s303.photobucket.com/albums/nn139/BillyG101/[/url]

Is that bet for everyone? Smells like fun to me. After 32 years working in chemical plants on the Houston ship channel, it would be like a day at work.:lol_hitti
 
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700jfm

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Simple - they use the government model... Ned takes $7k from Ned, sends it to Washington, there they waste half of it, use half of the remaining funds to study the mating habits of the Amazon Stink Bug, and send the final $3.5k back to Ned.

2weihae.jpg

:lol: :drink:
 

thegarageguy

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Good observation. You come on here and start off with a lie. Claiming it was your neighbor and now it was you that paid for the floor?? I think your story stinks as bad as your floor.

BTW, I can call hazmat with a complaint and they would show up with the same gear. What where they supposed to show up and test with, swim trunks??

I don't think reserving judgment after the facts are laid out is so far off base.
 

Kevin54

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The only purpose of my postings has been to inform unsuspecting consumers of unexpected, adverse results with what I thought would be a "simple" decorative floor coating for my special garage project.... and I thought I had all my bases covered! I don't plan to sue but I would like to occupy my garage someday again with a nice, 0% VOC decorative floor coating. Stay tuned...

BTW, I can call hazmat with a complaint and they would show up with the same gear. What where they supposed to show up and test with, swim trunks??

Now that's funny:lol_hitti

Mmmmm, the popcorn is yummy...

Better get some more because i think there will be a lot of responses to this thread. Not because of the floor but because someone got ferretted out in his story
 

Mlynch

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Fort Myers Florida
25 percent solvent sounds like WAY to much to add to any polyurea i know of; however, it sounds like the contractor was off ratio. There are a couple of potential ways to fix this if it is caught soon enough; however, this sounds to far gone. It needs to be ground off. If you are in SW FL i can help you bring this situation to a resolution as i have the machinery to remove the coating.
 

Stuey

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Am I missing something here? It seems that the OP wanted to provide a warning while venting about his experience, and you guys are getting a bit nasty.

As for what he should do, first of all disclose the manufacturer at the very least. I'd say this calls for a lawsuit.
 

700jfm

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Messages
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Stuey you'r right, and I apologize to the fourm for my behavior. I'm just use to my car/truck fourms. When someone misrepresent, "Well" they may need to do their posting in the lonely hearts chat room. I'm just one big :Homer: and get things, and do things worng all the time as you can tell by my threads. But I don't say my neighbor did it. Me and I think others come on here to share experience and to find "how-to" do something, not "how-to misrepresent. (If I'm worng about that I will apologize to BillyG)
But I have to say thank you to BillyG after his thread I will make sure that I get the mix right when I do my floor for-sure. As my neighbor can kick the :monkey_po out of me.
 
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thegarageguy

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So what is the situation?? Has it cured? Is there still an odor? Has the contractor came back to fix it? Has the manufacturer done anything? Is the home now uninhabitable? Have any local pets been found dead near the site? Is anyone glowing yet?

Seriously, give us a situation report.
 

shrockworks

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Jun 13, 2007
Messages
7
Some unknown contractor applied some unknown crappy product...beware!

I don't know the details of what really went down, but I know this thread is worthless without names....unless the only point is to scare people in general about this type of floor.

I don't mean to be an ***, but you really shouldn't have even posted this if you are not ready to provide any useful specifics.
 

thegarageguy

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I found him!! Unfortunately the odor was toxic.
 

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