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Hardie siding question

chaingang

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Joined
Oct 5, 2006
Messages
246
Location
B'ville Ga
Hey guys,

Have question about Hardie siding. I want to do the board and bat look on my new garage and Hardie sells a vertical sheet that comes in 4x8 and 4x10 that is textured and when you add their trim boards will give the look I am after. On their site the description says it can be used as a shear panel, the lap siding obviously has to be applied over plywood, OSB etc... but does this mean that the vertical can be nailed to the exterior studs without any other sheeting? :confused: I would obviously want a vapor barrier up first but it seems odd that it can stand alone and add structural rigidity. OSB is about 5.50 a sheet for me and it would save money if I don't have to do this first. I will probably spray foam the interior then add 1/2 OSB for wall covering inside. The other option I am looking at is t1-11 or RB & B then putting 1x2's up every 2 feet for the bats.
 
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hitek

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Nov 22, 2006
Messages
70
Location
Canton, GA
So are you trying to get away without using OSB under the Hardi? If that is the case it certainly would not pass codes. If you are putting OSB on the interior walls I guess that gives you your rigidity back that you would lose by not putting it on the exterior. The spray foam is a good idea...adds strength and superior R value.

I do not remember how much black board is but you could use OSB on the corners and blackboard along the wall spans.

I guess all I can say is in the southeast you have to do it by code and that is all the experience I can really offer.

Have you framed the garage yet? Have you looked at SIP's...structural insulated panels?
 

Charles (in GA)

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Jan 11, 2006
Messages
12,489
Location
50 mi south of Atlanta
Here is the instructions for the lap siding. They show either OSB/plywood ansd "weather resistive barrier" underneath or simply diagional "let-in" bracing and "weather resistive barrier" and no underlayment.

http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/hardiplankinstall.pdf


For the vertical sheets, here is the instructions, they do not show or suggest anything other than the 'weather resistive barrier".

http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/hardipanelinstall.pdf

I'm sure Lamar County has building codes, I'd consult the inspector if he seems knowledgable. I'm not familiar with the Int. Bld Codes so I cannot quote them. Sadly the county I'm in, the inspectors and even the head of planning and zoning (who is the head bld inspector) don't have a grasp of the codes, IBC, NEC or plumbing.

Charles
 

BoCRon

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Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
303
Location
Alpharetta GA USA
This is our chicken coop, the siding is Hardie Panel siding screwed directly to the studs, no underlayment. It has held up very well for the last 4 years. I am hoping to come back and add 1x1s or 2x2s to acheive the board and bat look as well. My guess is we'll put them up with a combo of panel adhesive and screws.
Our house is Hardie Plank. It was one of the first residences sheathed in Hardie Plank in the state and the builder was a bit flumoxed by it at first, but loved it once it was all done.
I'd love to see some pics as you go.
MainCoop.jpg

Annette
 

twostory

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Joined
Dec 23, 2005
Messages
554
Location
Duluth, Georgia
I would fully sheath the entire building in OSB, then tyvek, then hardiplank 4x8 sheets. I would offset the hardi-sheet, so the osb and hardi-sheet seam do not line up.

Before I completely finished sheathing my garage, the attic would rock and roll if you jumped back and forth. After sheathing was complete, the rock and roll totally disappeared.

The hardi-sheet is good stuff, but the nails on the edge will not take a shear force, the hardi-sheet will tear apart around the nail. That is why I suggest you make the walls stiff with OSB everywhere.

I am doing a hardiplank lap siding wall, so it will breath somewhat if water gets behind it. For you wall (4x8) hardi-sheet, I would research installing a drain plane just under the hardi-sheets.

Good luck with your framing "as I have time". My wife and I did almost all of the framing work, it took up 2.5 months. Now the siding work is going just as slow, probably finish the hardi-plank in Jan, then get to the shingle work. We are doing almost all of the building ourselves.
 

hitek

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Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
70
Location
Canton, GA
To clarify my earlier response...we have used the 4x8 hardi before and we still used OSB/blackboard like we would with any other siding so I guess I can't say for sure that code requires sheathing under the 4x8 Hardi...
 
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chaingang

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Joined
Oct 5, 2006
Messages
246
Location
B'ville Ga
Charles (in GA) said:
Here is the instructions for the lap siding. They show either OSB/plywood ansd "weather resistive barrier" underneath or simply diagional "let-in" bracing and "weather resistive barrier" and no underlayment.

http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/hardiplankinstall.pdf


For the vertical sheets, here is the instructions, they do not show or suggest anything other than the 'weather resistive barrier".

http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/hardipanelinstall.pdf

I'm sure Lamar County has building codes, I'd consult the inspector if he seems knowledgable. I'm not familiar with the Int. Bld Codes so I cannot quote them. Sadly the county I'm in, the inspectors and even the head of planning and zoning (who is the head bld inspector) don't have a grasp of the codes, IBC, NEC or plumbing.

Charles
Thanks,
I did read the instructions also and noted the difference in applications, but the page describing the panels is where I saw the "can be used as a shear panel" description then no explanation in the instructions PDF. I would think that OSB or an equivilent would be needed but I guess I will send them an email before I go back to the building supply store. The inspector here does seem knowledgable so that would probably be a good idea.
 
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chaingang

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Joined
Oct 5, 2006
Messages
246
Location
B'ville Ga
hitek said:
So are you trying to get away without using OSB under the Hardi? If that is the case it certainly would not pass codes. If you are putting OSB on the interior walls I guess that gives you your rigidity back that you would lose by not putting it on the exterior. The spray foam is a good idea...adds strength and superior R value.

I do not remember how much black board is but you could use OSB on the corners and blackboard along the wall spans.

I guess all I can say is in the southeast you have to do it by code and that is all the experience I can really offer.

Have you framed the garage yet? Have you looked at SIP's...structural insulated panels?
I was not necessarily trying to get away without doing OSB, just thought it might be a way to save some money if, as Hardie claims, it could be done. I would not cut corners on the structure if it truly has to do with the integrity of the building.
Yea, I have a friend that does spray foam and he gave me a good quote.
I have seen the panels you are talking about and would be interested if they are cost effective. Haven't seen them used here though.
 

boiler7904

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Joined
Apr 4, 2006
Messages
3,414
Location
NW IN
Remember, building codes are absolute minimums whether exterior sheathing is required or not and it may not be depending on the finish siding. I'd say spend the few hundred dollars that OSB is going to cost just for piece of mind. In the grand scheme of things adding strucutral integrity to your building will do more for you than anything. The greatest cabinets, epoxy flooring, tools, lift, etc. are all useless if they are in a building that's falling down (eventually) around them.

One of the most frustrating things about working with clients during construction is that they want to cut corners in the systems and structure to save a few bucks up front (on stuff that will cost them later long term). By the end of the project, they're all finding tons of money to add plasma tvs, and expensive finishes.

To me it just doesn't make sense to short change the structure if you plan on owning the building for a while. A well built building will look good and last longer than one where corners are cut. Interior finishes, new tools, and whatever else you want can be added over time as the budget permits but it's pretty hard to add sheathing if you come into a few hundred dollars down the road once the exterior is done and painted.
 

Bib Overalls

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Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
3,318
Location
Jonesboro, Arkansas
We have Hardie board lap siding on our house. We put it on over 7/16 OSB and weather wrap. Performance to date has been excellent. I agree with the other posters. Don't skip the sheating.
 

hitek

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Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
70
Location
Canton, GA
chaingang said:
I was not necessarily trying to get away without doing OSB, just thought it might be a way to save some money if, as Hardie claims, it could be done. I would not cut corners on the structure if it truly has to do with the integrity of the building.
Yea, I have a friend that does spray foam and he gave me a good quote.
I have seen the panels you are talking about and would be interested if they are cost effective. Haven't seen them used here though.

So what are the shop dimensions? I can give you an idea of panel prices.
 

JMURiz

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Joined
Dec 6, 2005
Messages
1,483
Location
NoVA
For a garage or house I don't know if I'd do the HardiePanel without OSB sheathing. For a shed...I think it'd be great, in fact I might just do that with my lean-to shed at the back of my garage.

BTW I just got my HardiePlank lap siding delivered yesterday and the install will happen tomorrow. Finally I can post some pictures of my project!!!
 

Swammy

Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
24
Location
SYRACUSE, NY
I just finished my garage 40 X 65, 15' high.

I used hardi board horizontal on the bottom and 4 X 10 sheets on the top over USB board.

One thing about the 4 X 10 is that they are heavy and hard to work, but they look great and are very durable.

Good Luck

Dave
 
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arbee

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Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
70
Location
Apex, NC
Ahh, this is a thread that I can speak to...

Well, I found out that Picasa Web where my pictures are will not allow hotlinking to other sites like this one. This is why my pictures don't show up.

I reproduced the content on my garage website which is very much a work in progress. Here is a link to the siding page and the web site:


http://rbgarage.googlepages.com/siding


http://rbgarage.googlepages.com


Sorry the pics aren't inline.
 
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chaingang

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Oct 5, 2006
Messages
246
Location
B'ville Ga
arbee said:
Ahh, this is a thread that I can speak to...

My house is sided with vertical channel cedar siding so when I started to design / think about a detached garage I started looking at cheaper alternatives to the cedar. I considered vertical vinyl which was pretty expesive too and t-111. I decided against t-111 because every building I looked at "in the field" looked awful around the bottom from water damage. I then found Hardipanel 4x8 sheets. I found an building with nothing but hardipanel and decided that wasn't for me either because the vertical lines where too subtle and the nail heads were too pronounced. Eventually I deicided board and batten (although the "board" part is made from the 4x8 sheets).

After researching it and discussing it with my inspector, I decided to go directly with Hardi products over studs with no OSB to save time and money. Even though the hardipanel can be used as a shear panel, I let in corner bracing to make me feel better and to hopefully ease any concerns of the inspectors. Here is a picture of the framing. Note the row of blocking at mid stud height. I did this to have something to secure the off stud battens to.

0109305_doorframing03.JPG


Here is a picture of 1 wall done and another still just studs. I only rolled out enough house wrap to do 1 or 2 sheets of panel at a time. One thing to note, the panels are very heavy (maybe 100 lbs). I was able to put them all on alone but it was hard. I installed a temporary ledger along the foundation to rest them on while I nailed them up. The are nailed every 6 in on the edges and every foot in the field. I used about 2# nails in a framing nailer and set the gun up so it left them proud. I snugged them with a hammer.

022705_hardipanel_siding_20.JPG


I made all my battens from 1x4x16 Miratec. I cut them in half and the ripped them in half. I even eased the edges on a router table. Ripped Miratec has a near knife edge otherwise. I envisioned using a nail at the top bottom and middle to secure the battens. However, I found that they needed to be secured more and ended up screwing them to the hardipanel with stainless trim screws in at 2' and 6' feet up the wall also.

IMG_4583.JPG


Although my house is vertical siding all the way, I decided to use hardiplanks (lap siding) on the gables. I liked the look of the contrasting lines and it was easier to deal with so far off the ground. I didn't use any OSB on the gables either.

Conclusions from my experience:

I'm very happy with the look of the building and the end result. The cost of the battens is quite high and I did not really think much of it until I added up how much miratec was required. The battens are very time consuming and you have to find a way to secure them when there isnt a stud behind them (OSB or not).

I feel good about the structural integrity of the building. The let in bracing is there and wasn't so hard to add. The panels themselves drastically tightened up the building.

Having done it without OSB, I do think I'd put the OSB in now if I were to have to start over tomorrow. I think it would be better if the hardi products were supported by OSB. I had a lot of places on the edges where the nail blew out the edge of the panel. My battens cover this all up now. I wouldn't consider using the panels without battens. I also think the standard window and door casings are going to be proud of my drywall if I ever get around to it.

Although I'm really happy with the board and batten look I achieved and it looks really good with the house, I'd also really lean towards doing the entire structure in hardiplanks over OSB if I were to do it over again. The battens and the panels are difficult to install.

More pics:

IMG_2608.JPG


IMG_4779.JPG


IMG_5259.JPG


IMG_5438.JPG


IMG_6544.JPG
What is miratec and does Hardie not offer something that could be used for the battens? Your building sounds great. Wish I could see the pics.:(
 
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chaingang

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Oct 5, 2006
Messages
246
Location
B'ville Ga
hitek said:
So what are the shop dimensions? I can give you an idea of panel prices.
Main bay is 25w x 32d x10ft wall. There are some door openings but if you need specifics send me a pm.
 

PAToyota

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Jan 20, 2006
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Location
South Central Pennsylvania, USA
hitek said:
The spray foam is a good idea...adds strength and superior R value.

:headscrat Structural foam?

With the 4x8 panels you do not need a underlying sheathing - as they say, it is a shear panel. Definitely put tyvek under it, though. And depending on design parameters you may need more bracing in the corners than the Hardie panel can provide.
 

arbee

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Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
70
Location
Apex, NC
Well, I found out that Picasa Web where my pictures are will not allow hotlinking to other sites like this one. This is why my pictures don't show up.

I reproduced the content on my garage website which is very much a work in progress. Here is a link to the siding page and the web site:


http://rbgarage.googlepages.com/siding


http://rbgarage.googlepages.com


Regarding Miratec:
Miratec is a product like MDF but is for outside use. Lots of new houses are using it in the area. Miratec Link I'm happy with the Miratec so far. I had pieces lying in the mud for months that were still just as solid as new stock.
 

hitek

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Nov 22, 2006
Messages
70
Location
Canton, GA
PAToyota said:
:headscrat Structural foam?

With the 4x8 panels you do not need a underlying sheathing - as they say, it is a shear panel. Definitely put tyvek under it, though. And depending on design parameters you may need more bracing in the corners than the Hardie panel can provide.

I was just agreeing that with conventional stick framing that the spray foam insulation would be good. The spray foam kind of glues everything together....just adds strength in that respect.
 
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chaingang

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Joined
Oct 5, 2006
Messages
246
Location
B'ville Ga
arbee said:
Well, I found out that Picasa Web where my pictures are will not allow hotlinking to other sites like this one. This is why my pictures don't show up.

I reproduced the content on my garage website which is very much a work in progress. Here is a link to the siding page and the web site:


http://rbgarage.googlepages.com/siding


http://rbgarage.googlepages.com


Regarding Miratec:
Miratec is a product like MDF but is for outside use. Lots of new houses are using it in the area. Miratec Link I'm happy with the Miratec so far. I had pieces lying in the mud for months that were still just as solid as new stock.
Man that is a great looking garage. I love the board and bat look, your garage sealed it for me. Will have to do this. Beautiful house and lot also. Thanks for your input.
 

SCOOTER

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Mar 30, 2006
Messages
226
Location
Washington
twostory said:
I would fully sheath the entire building in OSB, then tyvek, then hardiplank 4x8 sheets. I would offset the hardi-sheet, so the osb and hardi-sheet seam do not line up.

Before I completely finished sheathing my garage, the attic would rock and roll if you jumped back and forth. After sheathing was complete, the rock and roll totally disappeared.

The hardi-sheet is good stuff, but the nails on the edge will not take a shear force, the hardi-sheet will tear apart around the nail. That is why I suggest you make the walls stiff with OSB everywhere.

I am doing a hardiplank lap siding wall, so it will breath somewhat if water gets behind it. For you wall (4x8) hardi-sheet, I would research installing a drain plane just under the hardi-sheets.

Good luck with your framing "as I have time". My wife and I did almost all of the framing work, it took up 2.5 months. Now the siding work is going just as slow, probably finish the hardi-plank in Jan, then get to the shingle work. We are doing almost all of the building ourselves.




Are we brothers?????:beer:
 

twostory

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Dec 23, 2005
Messages
554
Location
Duluth, Georgia
SCOOTER said:
Are we brothers?????:beer:

Well we both have two story garages, mostly built by ourselves. But my five real brothers may disagree that we are brothers. But, I do have a brother in Portland, OR.

How is you garage going? Do you have a page on your web site for the garage?

I am still in the siding stage, as I said, it will probably take another month to finish the siding. That extra story really makes the siding work slow, having to set up pump jacks and such. To finish my gable end, I had to build 32 foot pump jack poles, man do they wobble when I am on them.

I did take some time two weeks ago to install the garage door. It is 18 wide, by 11ft high. One big door, I spent more time trying to understand the directions, than I did install the door. Now that it is installed, I can lock the garage up.

Maybe by Feb, I can get to the shingle work. In Georgia, winter time is a good time to shingle, it is not too hot. My roof is covered in Tri-flex right now, Tri-flex is rated for 6 month exposure, so I have until April to get the shingles on the roof.
 

SCOOTER

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Mar 30, 2006
Messages
226
Location
Washington
Naaaaa I don't have a shop thread on the "*******" site..I haven't made alot of progress as of late....Mine is 3/4 Tyveked...roof is on (standing seam metal)...downstairs windows in.......Ya I'm feeling ya on the siding...I think I'm gonna have to farm it out..you will never get my big *** up on a 30+ foot pump jack....AND I MEAN NEVER.....:bowdown:
 

dodgepolara500

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Aug 16, 2006
Messages
557
Location
San Jose, CA.
I used Hardi Panels on my home in San Jose CA without any plywood or OSB underneath. Passed inspection and everything. Added some battons for a Board and Batton Look. Very happy with the way it looks. I got the smooth one without the grain texture. Take paint very well.
 

arbee

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Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
70
Location
Apex, NC
twostory,

Regarding pump jacks, I used them too for my garage to side the gable ends. I added another picture to the siding web page. You can see them set up here: http://rbgarage.googlepages.com/siding

The crossbracing at the bottom helps tremendously with the stability. It is a bit of a pain because you have to put the bracing on after you pump up a ways and remove them before you can lower all the way down but it was much safer. I used screws to secure them. In the picture of the back you can see I also braced them back and forth. I made my own work bench and safety rail.

Also, I used metal mending plates over any place where I butted two 2x4s together. These are just rectangular plates like are used in trusses. I found them in Home Depot with the strong tie stuff. Otherwise, accidents happen if the one continuous 2x4 at the joint pops when the rig sways side to side. Especially if there is a knot in that 2x4.

I was very glad when I lowered that rig down for the last time. My tallest poles were only 24'.
 

twostory

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Dec 23, 2005
Messages
554
Location
Duluth, Georgia
arbee said:
Also, I used metal mending plates over any place where I butted two 2x4s together. These are just rectangular plates like are used in trusses. I found them in Home Depot with the strong tie stuff. Otherwise, accidents happen if the one continuous 2x4 at the joint pops when the rig sways side to side. Especially if there is a knot in that 2x4.

Thanks for the advice on bracing, I will try that. As for the mending plates, I have always used them, I can not imagine a pole without mending plates. I also spent a very long time picking thru the 2x4 pile to get the raw material for my poles. #2 2x4 is such ****, I wish I knew a source for #1 2x4 lumber?

I also dig in a concrete "deck block" into the ground to set the bottom of my poles on. This way the mud and such does not keep the wood wet. When I built my 24 foot poles, I also primed the wood. I knew they would spend many months outside, so I painted them.
 
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