Header size for a 16' eaveside door

[markvfr]

Quick question. My garage is already framed and I have a 9'wide by 8'9 single door and a 16' wide by 8'9 double on a 24x33' garage with cottage roof. The 9' door opening was framed with double 1 3/4" 9.5" Timberstrand LSL beams, which is definitely strong enough. However, the 16' door opening was framed with double 1 3/4" 11 7/8" Timberstrand LSL beams. The engineering design called for three of them but the framer said its overkill, and that he hasn't seen a garage framed with three of them yet and all of them passed inspection. Not a big deal, and left it up to me, and I said to do the double and if the inspection fails, we'll replace the cripples with 2x6s and add the third.

I had the inspector come out and unfortunately I wasn't there when he showed up but the garage past the inspection. Do any of you know if these will be strong enough on the 16' opening? I think yes, since all garages have been built with double LSLs for years but apparently the local code changed lately. I'm having second thoughts right now, and just want to make sure everything will hold.

Here is a pic:

Thanks.

 

[robertlynk]

Why did you have it engineered if you are not going to follow the design?
If the door way starts to sag who you going to call?
Was the job bid for 3 timber strand and now the builder is thinking oops I bid this thinking 2 ts's and now he is double talking his way out of suppling them?

http://www.ilevel.com/literature/TJ-9000.pdf
look at page 9 it calls out 5 1/4 x 11 1/2 (3x1-3/4) for 16-3 rough opening

 

[blue dog]

If the engineering called for 3, maybe during the inspection, it was missed by the civil worker tht was there. Now, your frammer is not an engineer and if it was speced out, that is the way it should be built. Down the road if there is an issue, do you think the frammer is going to come back and do the repair for free, me either. I have been a general in los angeles for 15 years, if a set of approved plans calls for something specific, thats the way it needs to be built. On a side note, if the frammer gave a price to frame the garage as per plan , he is not doing that. Just because he has been framming that way does mean you can deviate from the plans. I f you add the third lvl do you have to fur out the rest of the wall for drywall?

 

[Torque1st]

Get the inspector back out there and show him the plan and the beams. If he has a PE stamp then he can sign off on the change.

 

[markvfr]

Yeah, I know guys, its my bad. The main reason was that the rest of the building is 2x4 and I'm gonna have to do 2x6 cripples on that door only so going to have to fur out the wall for drywall like "blue dog" said. And from previous garage jobs, the two ply was always enough and also designed by enginerds.

I think I might get the inspector out again like "Torque1st" said and point it out to him see what he says.

 

[csp]

I wouldn't fir out the entire wall for the additional thickness of the cripples. Put some 2x4 nailers to the sides of the cripples and take the drywall up to them and stop. Paint the cripples as you would the drywall (if you're painting it). Your garage door bracketry can bolt to the cripples and you don't end up cutting drywall to go around them. I can post a picture of something similar if it helps.

 

[Rockey]

I'm framing my overhead doors tonight. I have the same size as you 9' and a 16'. The blueprints I bought called for 5-1/8" X 16-1/2" GLB. When I ordered my lumber from home depot they sent me two LVL's that are 1-3/4" X 18". The 18" is killing me I had to reduce my garage door height from 8'0" to 7'6" because of that. I'm glad they are oversized because I will have 800 sf of loft area above the garage and I want the support.

 

[markvfr]

I wouldn't fir out the entire wall for the additional thickness of the cripples. Put some 2x4 nailers to the sides of the cripples and take the drywall up to them and stop. Paint the cripples as you would the drywall (if you're painting it). Your garage door bracketry can bolt to the cripples and you don't end up cutting drywall to go around them. I can post a picture of something similar if it helps.

Hmm, thats a good idea. Could you post a picture as that would help a lot?

On another note, I just talked to a city Inspector on the phone and asked him about the header. He did the calculations and said I'm just barely under the max limit so I'm ok. Another datapoint that helps is that I only have a 6" eave on the door side so that reduces the load as well. Still, it would be nice to be overbuilt rather than right on the limit, so if its easy to do the drywall method CSP describes, I might still bolt on the third header.

Thanks.

 

[csp]

I'll have to take one tonight and post it either tonight or in the morning.

 

[GarageEnvy]

Sounds like you've got it resolved but I used to think the same as others have posted here. If it was on the plan then follow it. However, in my garage build I learned that in many cases a designed will spec out something that is overkill to avoid doing a calculation. My designer spec'd 4x12 purlins for one section. They wouldn't fit and I found out from the county that a 4x6 was more than adequate for the span. Also, the designer spec'd 2 $800 Simpson Strongwalls and when there were problems with that the engineer said double shearing the wall and using a little heavier anchor for a total of $30 was suffiicient. I definitely wouldn't have second guessed these designs on my own but in some cases there might be other solutions that work. I can only say that the beam spec'd for my 18' opening was 5 1/4x 13 1/2 glue lam.

 

[GOehm]

In addition to what others have said, remember that inspection essentially enforces the minimums. Your garage would pass with a gravel floor, but is that what you want?

That said, it should be fine, just ask the framer what warranty he provides given that he deviated from the engineered plans. If he is confident, then he should be able to give a lifetime warranty vs. sagging.

 

[markvfr]

Sounds like you've got it resolved but I used to think the same as others have posted here. If it was on the plan then follow it. However, in my garage build I learned that in many cases a designed will spec out something that is overkill to avoid doing a calculation. My designer spec'd 4x12 purlins for one section. They wouldn't fit and I found out from the county that a 4x6 was more than adequate for the span. Also, the designer spec'd 2 $800 Simpson Strongwalls and when there were problems with that the engineer said double shearing the wall and using a little heavier anchor for a total of $30 was suffiicient. I definitely wouldn't have second guessed these designs on my own but in some cases there might be other solutions that work. I can only say that the beam spec'd for my 18' opening was 5 1/4x 13 1/2 glue lam.

Good post Envy. Thats what I was eluding to with the overkill comment. But, when the manufacturer specifies three instead of two like "robertlynk" put in his post, then I think I should listen to that spec. I'm 90% sure the two-ply is sufficient but lets say one year we get a massive snowdump of wet snow, the header bows and deflects, and my door won't work anymore. Its easy and cheap to put it in right now. I talked to the framer and he'll come back and put the extra header in, but we were scratching our heads on how to do it. Since I already have 2x4 cripples in for the other two headers, there is no room for the third, so we're going to strap in 2x6s to the existing 2x4 cripples, place it on concrete directly since there is no room on the 2x4 sill plate and rest the header on those. Its not perfect or ideal but the easiest way to add it and when nailed and screwed it should be strong enough.
Thoughts or suggestions on that?

It shouldn't look too bad, especially if I do the CSP suggestion and just **** up the drywall to the 2x6s and just paint them.

Lesson learned.

 

[Rockey]

Good post Envy. Thats what I was eluding to with the overkill comment. But, when the manufacturer specifies three instead of two like "robertlynk" put in his post, then I think I should listen to that spec. I'm 90% sure the two-ply is sufficient but lets say one year we get a massive snowdump of wet snow, the header bows and deflects, and my door won't work anymore. Its easy and cheap to put it in right now. I talked to the framer and he'll come back and put the extra header in, but we were scratching our heads on how to do it. Since I already have 2x4 cripples in for the other two headers, there is no room for the third, so we're going to strap in 2x6s to the existing 2x4 cripples, place it on concrete directly since there is no room on the 2x4 sill plate and rest the header on those. Its not perfect or ideal but the easiest way to add it and when nailed and screwed it should be strong enough.
Thoughts or suggestions on that?

It shouldn't look too bad, especially if I do the CSP suggestion and just **** up the drywall to the 2x6s and just paint them.

Lesson learned.

If your going through the trouble of doing it that way then use treated 2X6's

 

[csp]

What can't your contractor put the existing headers on a temporary support with a house jack under it and remove the existing cripples?

Existing supports are removed/replaced with this method all the time.

 

[WNYflyer]

Why did you have it engineered if you are not going to follow the design?
If the door way starts to sag who you going to call?
Was the job bid for 3 timber strand and now the builder is thinking oops I bid this thinking 2 ts's and now he is double talking his way out of suppling them?

http://www.ilevel.com/literature/TJ-9000.pdf
look at page 9 it calls out 5 1/4 x 11 1/2 (3x1-3/4) for 16-3 rough opening

x 10 the link should have most of the information you need. Even has the nailing pattern for ganging 3 together. Sounds good adding the 2x material to the cripples to pick up the third LSL and having the new material bearing on the concrete. Even if the additional material didn't bear on the concrete I don't think you would have any problem if you have enough nails tying it all together.

I would take a look at you door mounting installation details and look at what you need to do at the top also. Don't want to crash with the nailing pattern if you can help it.

 

[Torque1st]

To change the approved plans the inspector should have a PE stamp. That way any problem falls on his E&O insurance. Most municipalities will not allow their employees to do that since the ultimate responsibility falls back on the city. All design changes to the stamped plans must be made by the original PE. There could be other reasons for the original design spec besides a simple span/load.

 

[GarageEnvy]

To change the approved plans the inspector should have a PE stamp. That way any problem falls on his E&O insurance. Most municipalities will not allow their employees to do that since the ultimate responsibility falls back on the city. All design changes to the stamped plans must be made by the original PE. There could be other reasons for the original design spec besides a simple span/load.

Sound advice from my experience. My post was simply to convey that sometimes the spec's are excessive but you shouldn't deviate from the plans unless you're sure they're excessive and have that from good authority. To use my example, the change from 4x12 to 4x6 was spec'd by the inspector from the code book that had the table of appropriate spans and beam sizes. The change from the strongwall to double shear was approved by the engineer and then submitted to the county. Without the engineer, even though it was solid, the county would not have approved it because it was not built the way the plans were drawn. Sounds to me like you're already doubting that remaining 10% enough to want to beef it up.

 

[csp]

Here are the pictures. You can see the 2x4s nailed perpendicular to the 2x6 cripples that the garage door bracketry is attached to. Drywall will be installed between these 2x4s.

If you attach your new cripple to the existing 2x4s you'll have pretty much the same situation. Just **** the drywall up to the edge of the 2 by.

 

[markvfr]

Sound advice from my experience. My post was simply to convey that sometimes the spec's are excessive but you shouldn't deviate from the plans unless you're sure they're excessive and have that from good authority. To use my example, the change from 4x12 to 4x6 was spec'd by the inspector from the code book that had the table of appropriate spans and beam sizes. The change from the strongwall to double shear was approved by the engineer and then submitted to the county. Without the engineer, even though it was solid, the county would not have approved it because it was not built the way the plans were drawn. Sounds to me like you're already doubting that remaining 10% enough to want to beef it up.

Exactly. I've decided to get rid off the existing 2x4 cripples all together and replace with 2x6. It'll be easy to just support the headers right now, slide the old 2x4s out and replace with 2x6s. Done and done.

Cheers,
M

 

[markvfr]

Here are the pictures. You can see the 2x4s nailed perpendicular to the 2x6 cripples that the garage door bracketry is attached to. Drywall will be installed between these 2x4s.

If you attach your new cripple to the existing 2x4s you'll have pretty much the same situation. Just **** the drywall up to the edge of the 2 by.

Awesome. Thanks csp! Thats exactly what I have and now that I will be replacing the 2x4 cripples, I'll just **** the drywall to the 2x6s and either flash or trim the 2x6s.