Help on T8HO vs T12HO (is HO necessary?)

[horizontallyopposed]

Hi all,

I've searched through a lot of threads here (and pretty much reached the end of Google), and there are a lot of people talking about "high output T8" but very few that properly reference T8HO (where I am talking about either 44W 48" bulbs or 86W 96" bulbs). I have been looking online for either tandem 48" or 96" T8HO fixtures. T12HO seems to be much cheaper and much more available, although typically in the 96" size only.

Now as background, here's what I'm trying to do - living in Southern Alberta and with an unheated garage, we see temps of -10*F (-20*C) for a lot of the winter. I still need my garage at that temp, even if it's not to work on the car, but to wax skis. So I still need a lot of light at low temperatures. Unfortunately unlike many on this board who live in warmer climes, or have heated garages, the selection at Lowes and Home Despot offers precious little (more on that later).

There are T8 fixtures available with electronic ballasts that have a minimum starting temperature of 0*F, but they aren't the T8HO, just 32W T8 48" tubes. However every reference I've seen to HO electronic ballasts (whether T8 or T12) says their starting temperature is -20*F.

The other thing I'd like to try and accomplish here is to be able to install decent lamps with 5000K temperature and a CRI in the 90s (like a Colortone 50). Like many here, I feel there's no such thing as too much light, so I really want to be able to see well, and have enough light for work like car detailing, etc.

I understand that going to T12, HO is my only real option due to the changes in regulation. 110W 96" T12HO is an available fixture, for about $120 per fixture, but bulbs are a bit of a PITA.

T8HO in tandem 48" just seems to be unobtanium anywhere online in Canada. I found some in the U.S. but prices seem to be insane - like $300 a fixture.

Now for what is available in HO......
Lithonia UNS296HO120 (2 lamp, 96" T12HO) - $130 ea
Thomas Lighting STRIP-S-286HO120 (2 lamp, 96" T8HO) - $125 ea

And that's about all that's readily available in HO.

Now, as soon as I drop HO and just look at 32W T8, there are lots of alternatives, many with electronic ballasts that start at 0*F. Even Home Despot has a Lithonia TUNS-2-32-MVOLT-GEB for $90 (4 - 48" T8 32W tubes, starting 0*F) (which annoyingly even on their website they call a "high output" fixture - grrrrr). These are $90 ea.

An interesting alternative is that HD sells high bay Efficent Lighting 4 and 6 bulb 32W T8 fixtures with reflectors, but I worry at 14' my ceilings are still a bit too low for high bay. But at $130 for the 4 bulb, is an option and have a min starting temp of -22*F.

One of my wife's clients is an electrical wholesaler, so I'm sure I can dig deeper into ordering something, but as is obvious, I'm still unsure as to what I really need. Note I have purposely excluded T5 anything due to cost.

So with apologies for the bloviating, I appeal to the collective wisdom with these questions:
1) am I over thinking this?
2) do I need HO fixtures, or should I just put one extra regular fixture in and call it even? Will 32W bulbs suffice? Do you really get that much extra by moving from the 32W bulb up to 44W T8HO? I guess in reality it's moving from about 3000 lumens at 32W to 4000 lumens at 44W. Although lumens go down as CRI goes up. But it seems the difference on 1 4 bulb fixture is about equal to having 1 extra bulb in there. So for every 4 non-HO fixtures I put in, HO would give the rough equivalent on one extra fixture?
3) can I get the combination of low temperature performance in a fixture and color correct bulbs in a 32W 48" T8?

My sincere thanks!
Keith

 

[horizontallyopposed]

Hmm, well popped into Lowes last night (they have pretty much nothing for on-line catalogue in Canada). They have Cooper Metalux lights in the following:
SSF296HO
2 bulb, 96" T12HO, -20*F start
$54.28

SSF2964WP
2 bulb, 96" T8, 0*F start
$36.74

8TSSF232
tandem 4 bulb x 48" T8, 0*F start
$59.97

Bulb selection at Lowes is a litte iffy. Best they seemed to have is 4100K 87 CRI, so I suspect I'll have to search further afield to find the bulbs I'd like. Looks like maybe availability and pricing of bulbs might be the kicker.

 

[horizontallyopposed]

I have 2 existing T12 HO fixtures that have never performed well - one I had to stick in the basement utility room because it would not fire at even 32*F. Popped them open and discovered they are old Advance RS-2S110-2-TP magnetic ballasts. So I think I'll upgrade them to electronic ballasts - but the stupid replacement ballasts appear to be more expensive than new fixtures! So I'll have to have a look around.

 

[tfi racing]

If you get a chance,swing by your local Canadian Tire to have a look(don't bother asking anyone there anything,they don't know and the fixtures can't be bought there) many in western Canada have switched to the F48T8VHO fixtures in the garden center a couple of years ago.I know there has been an issue with the lamps and ballasts,I believe it is due to the sealed,weatherproof fixture that is overheating the ballast and causing them to fail,especially here on the west coast where it can be warmer.They are also very expensive and difficult to source,if you can find them at all,I would stay away from them.

 

[Norcal]

If you get a chance,swing by your local Canadian Tire to have a look(don't bother asking anyone there anything,they don't know and the fixtures can't be bought there) many in western Canada have switched to the F48T8VHO fixtures in the garden center a couple of years ago.I know there has been an issue with the lamps and ballasts,I believe it is due to the sealed,weatherproof fixture that is overheating the ballast and causing them to fail,especially here on the west coast where it can be warmer.They are also very expensive and difficult to source,if you can find them at all,I would stay away from them.

Anything VHO is expensive, if having issues w/ HO lamps starting try new lamps I don't know about Canada but here in the states the formerly "standard" 110W T12 HO lamps is 95 watts & they do not start as well as former ones. 110W T12 HO lamps are avail. as special purpose lamps marked "For low temperature use" but will cost more & will have to sourced at a electrical or lighting distributer. VHO lamps are 1500ma lamps & are hot enough at the ends to burn your fingers they were popular for gas station island canopies until they pulled them in favor of metal halide.

 

[trythis]

Home Depot in the states, at least in St Louis carries a $40 GE electronic T12HO ballast that works very well in my unheated garage. They carry the bulbs as well

 

[horizontallyopposed]

if having issues w/ HO lamps starting try new lamps I don't know about Canada but here in the states the formerly "standard" 110W T12 HO lamps is 95 watts & they do not start as well as former ones. 110W T12 HO lamps are avail. as special purpose lamps marked "For low temperature use" but will cost more & will have to sourced at a electrical or lighting distributer.

Haven't had a problem finding 110W T12HO lamps to date. However, I am trying to track down some Litetronics bulbs as they have a high CRI 5000K T12 110W lamp.

My one T12HO fixture, I took it out of the garage and installed it in my basement storage room and have had no problems with it at room temps, but it just sort of half started and flickered in the garage at the cooler temps.

I'm not convinced on replacing the ballasts in my existing fixtures, due to the high cost of ballasts vs. new fixtures. New bulbs may be the first priority!

 

[62thunderbird]

I'd check suppliers for printers or the graphic arts in general. 5000K lights are the standard lighting on all printing press consoles and anyplace critical color decisions are made. In fact, printers replace the 5000K lamps in their viewing booths after so many hours of use. You may be able to get them cheap from them if not free.

 

[tfi racing]

Time to step up to the pros!In Calgary,check out either Litemor or Commercial Lighting,they should have what you need,all they do is supply professional commercial lighting products,and will know what is best for your part of the frozen tundra.

 

[horizontallyopposed]

One of the threads I was talking about where the use of "HO" by Home Depot may be misleading
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86254&highlight=design&showall=1

 

[CADPoint]

I think you should talk to your supply house friend take them to lunch explain usage, and enviroment and pick up the tab.

If you need ballasts that need to work in those tempertures run from the
big boxes and let your friend present a pitch! They can supply plenty of pointers and possibly even some fliers to match all the verbage that you've already covered...

You don't have to purchase anything at the supply house but they will qualify a lot for you to "surf" with...

Or what TFI said

 

[horizontallyopposed]

Having done some lighting calculations to figure out lumnes / sq ft and all that, the number of fixtures I would need is quite reasonable. Based on the "readily" availability of bulbs (ordering bulbs on-line and getting them delivered to Canada is completely cost prohibitive), tandem T8s are the way to go. Stepping down from HO to regular T8s only necessitates maybe 1 or 2 extra fixtures, but allows for better distribution of the fixtures.

But man, trying to get really high CRI bulbs suddenly becomes expensive. The jump from "good enough" to ideal is a significant jump in price and may not be noticeable in the end. From a local electrical supplier, for bulbs all around 5000K, it goes:
85 CRI $2.15 ea
89 CRI $3.95 ea
92 CRI $8.95 ea (5700K full spectrum)
98 CRI $9.95 ea
Multiply that by 30 or so bulbs and yowza.

 

[Cobra6]

Will you even be able to get T12 bulbs in Canada in the near future? they are on their way out in the U.S.

 

[Norcal]

Will you even be able to get T12 bulbs in Canada in the near future? they are on their way out in the U.S.

The only thing off the market is T12 electromagnetic ballasts, which ceased being manufactured or imported in July 2010.The electronic ones are still avail.

 

[V-10 Killer]

I have 11 T12HO's I got from Lowes in my toybox, ten new ones and one old one I moved from my old garage. The old one makes a little noise when cold (~10 years old, but never put new bulbs in it yet...), but the ten that I bought 3 years ago are dead silent. Some people are hesitant about transporting the bulbs. I guess to each their own, but if you can't get light bulbs home without pannicing, kinda makes me wonder about ones other abilities.

*edit*
I guess I should have mentioned, those are the same 96"ers you were looking at at Lowes. I have one in my attached garage (unheated and it fires fine down to ~0F but hums a little (this is the second of the two I bought 10 years ago, I just moved one of them to the new garage). Haven't tried it colder than that.

 

[horizontallyopposed]

The big strike against T12s just seems to be the availability of bulbs - T8's seem to be that "good enough" can be found at Home Despot and whatnot, but all of the common places will *maybe* carry one type of T12 HO bulb, vs. a selection of T8s. I still have one specialty lighting place I have to make a visit to.

 

[Traditional hotrodder]

I have 18 t-12ho 96" fixtures in my 36'x36' garage and not a problem at all during startup from the cold. They've all started up as low as 0 degrees farenheigth when I forgot to turn on the furnace.

 

[horizontallyopposed]

My thought process is that the availability of lamps will dictate what fixtures I should go with, however some cost optimization does need to factor in.

In looking at what the local Home Depot and Lowes carry, there is precious little in the way of high CRI bulbs. The only ones I've found - PERIOD - have been Philips F32T8/Natural Sunshine. This is a consumer packaged F32T8/TL850/PLUS/ALTO at 32W 5000K 85 CRI 2850 intial lumens. They are $10 for a 2 pack at Home Depot.

I have had some limited success in tracking down some prices from local suppliers. Asking them about high CRI bulbs usually results in vacant blinking. One supplier gave me the catalogue for a Canadian company called Standard Products who have no F96T12HO bulbs, but a range of F32T8. The range in price from $2.15 ea for 5000K 85 CRI, $4.95 ea for 4100K 89 CRI to $9.95 ea for 5000K 98 CRI.

The most widely available option seems to be to stick with Philips lamps. The T12HO options become somewhat limited as I inquired about two that are no longer available:
F96T12/CWX/HO
F96T12/850/HO/ALTO
However the very nicely spec'ed F96T12/C50/HO is available at $9.50 ea.
(orders of 15)
For Philips T8 bulbs
F32T8/TL950 are $6.95 ea
F32T8/ADV841/ALTO are $4.75 ea
(orders of 25)

So looking at the lighting calculations for my garage, I need about 155,000 initial lumens to get 150 foot candles at 3 ft height. For the optimization, this works out to:
F96T12/C50/HO - 12 fixtures
F32T8/TL950 - 19 fixtures
F32T8/ADV841 - 12 fixtures

The price difference between T12HO and T8 fixtures here is pretty much a wash - about $57 vs $60. When I factor in lamps and fixtures, the T12HO wins by about $70 over the cheapest T8 option. However, the cheapest T8 option is a CRI of 85 vs. the 92 of the T12HO. The other benefit of T12HO is the lower starting temperature (-20*F vs. 0*F).

So maybe I've just justified what I wanted to do from the outset. I can appreciate that the 4' T8s are easier to deal with and better to change when a lamp dies. So to a certain extent I am ignoring some practicalities. However when the lamps are special order regardless, I'll have some on hand.
---
-Keith
Calgary

 

[Delta74]

Sorry for dragging this off the third page, but a quick idea for you, talk to your local Sign shops, most signs are either neon or Fluorescent and they light in -40, and most of the larger sign shops will have tons of spare ballast's from old signs either out back, or on there shelves, and those are usually of a HO design cold start, you may be able to pick them up cheap, or work a deal to buy at a reduced cost compared to retail, then you can put the ballasts in the cheap home depot shells, or look at job sites doing reno work, last job I was on we threw a few hundred perfectly good fixtures into the scrap metal bin, 12 found there way to my garage with ballasts from our neighbours sign shop and they alway lit even on those frigid saskatchewan mornings