Help with my milling machine collets

[GSSFC]

If I post some pics of the collects that I have with my newly acquired milling machine, can someone advise as to what I need to buy to use a drill chuck, and use endmills?

Thanks, Tim

 

[tigmusky]

I'll try. post those pics.

are your collets r-8

look in enco , msc , travers books they show everything . that should help

Daye

 

[GSSFC]

I'll be honest, I don't know much about them. I guy taht I did work for in the fall gave me the machine and whatever he had to go with it. It is a late 40's early 50's Van Norman 22LU. I'll post up the pics shortly. I only want to do drilling and some minor metal working. Probably like buying a racecar to just use to drive to get the paper, but whatever, it is cool and I always wanted one!

Tim

 

[toolchaser]

Post on the practical machinist forum, those guys have a huge knowledge base on machinery

 

[OldCarGuy]

A Van Norman mill could be fitted with a number of collets. The machines that I’m familiar with used a Brown & Sharp collects or Van Norman’s # 50. That look similar to R8's that a Bridgeport uses; but not interchangeable. Hopefully your machine came with some tooling and spare you many dollars collecting suitable tooling.

In any event,, post up some pictures. Then we can help determine the correct collets.

 

[A_Pmech]

A Van Norman #22 machine could have a B&S #13, Van Norman #50, or even #50 STD spindle taper.

Drilling on that machine will be rather difficult, as it does not have a quill. Van Norman used the letter "Q" to designate machines fitted with movable quills. So far as I'm aware, the only Van Norman machine with a movable quill was the #1RQ:

Here's a drawing of the special Van Norman #50 collet:

 

[GSSFC]

Here are the pics

 

[GSSFC]

Here is the machine...needs a good cleaning.

 

[A_Pmech]

That's National Standard Taper tooling. Looks like NST #40 to me. The etching around the rim of each holder will give the size and in the case of the two taper adapters, the size of the female taper. Lucky you! NST #40 is cheap and plentiful on Ebay.

From left to right:

End mill holder

Morse? taper holder

Morse? taper holder

For general milling, you'll want a set of endmill holders at a minimum. The taper will be the same, but each holder will be sized for a different endmill.

As I suspected, the machine does not have a movable quill. This will make drilling rather difficult, as you'll have to crank the knee, which is tedious. For large drills, cranking the knee might work, for small (under 7/16") you'll be unable to feel the drill enough to avoid breaking them without lots of practice. However, I've heard it can be done. Never tried it myself.

 

[Steve from Socal]

The tooling shown is NMTB taper, if it is a 50 taper then a Cat 50 or NMTB 50 will fit, you will need a longer draw bar and remove the pull stud if using a Cat taper.

Steve

 

[GSSFC]

Damn, I wish I knew what any of that meant!

Tim

 

[A_Pmech]

Here's where you should start:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0831111267/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Within those two volumes are all the basics of machining, including how machine tapers work.

 

[OldCarGuy]

The holders are NST, most likely #40 or # 50. Check the thread in the top. If it is 5/8”-11 it's a NST 40. If it is 1”-8 it's a NST 50. By any chance it's 1/2”-13 it's a NST 30...


The tool holder on the left is a Weldon style (uses to set screws to hold end mill) end mill holder. I cannot say what the center one in. And the right holder is a Morse taper. Used for Morse taper shank drill bits. Must be either a #3 or #4...

Like mentioned earlier, this machine may not be the best bet to just drill holes. Particularly smaller in diameter.. Purchase a drill chuck with a Morse taper adapter shank and you can hold small drills. Larger ones you would just us drill with a taper shank.

The following link may help describe Morse tapers better with pictures..

http://www.beautifuliron.com/mttaper.htm

 

[kbs2244]

For starters, you use the collets to hold the stright shaft end mill or drill bit.
A drill spindle will most often have the taper in it and not need a collet.

That looks like a nice machine, but I don't see a quill handle on it.
It may be for x and y (front to back and left to right) work only.

 

[Kevin54]

Before you start looking for collets, etc. Get the number of the machine and post it up. Then it will be a lot easier to steer you in the right direction. Although what everyone has posted is great advice, I can see where you would get pulled in 20 different directions at once. There are many collets that you can get. By that I mean not just for the machine, but for drilling and end mills. You can get straight shanked drill chucks to fit in a mill collet. You can also get a straight shanked collet holder that fits into another collet to run smaller end mills. But what you need to know is exactly what collet fits your machine, so to give you that, a number from the machine would be a huge help. Then we can have you cutting small ones out of big ones in no time.

 

[GSSFC]

It is a van norman 22LU. The table moves x,y and z, there is no quill movement.

Tim

 

[Kevin54]

A Pmech posted up a pic....here is another from a site about Van Normans that may better explain the collets http://www.jmkasunich.com/vannorman/VN_Spindle.htm Also be sure to check the "Resources and Links" at the top of that page.

BTW...it looks like you have the only model that has three different types listed.

 

[OldCarGuy]

Hey Kevin,

If this was going to be the only mill in your garage. Might you seriously consider mounting a standard Bridgeport head on it. It will then have a sensitive quill movement and make the mill far more usable. And the R8 collets are much cheaper and easier to find. Though the head will not be as rigid. Plus you'll be running a big motor just for the table feeds..

 

[GSSFC]

Hey Kevin,

If this was going to be the only mill in your garage. Might you seriously consider mounting a standard Bridgeport head on it. It will then have a sensitive quill movement and make the mill far more usable. And the 5C collets are much cheaper and easier to find. Though the head will not be as rigid. Plus you'll be running a big motor just for the table feeds..

Sounds like that might be a great option to negate the need for a dedicated drill press. Where might I find such head and is it "bolt-on"?

Tim

 

[OldCarGuy]

Sounds like that might be a great option to negate the need for a dedicated drill press. Where might I find such head and is it "bolt-on"?

Tim

A Bridgeport head won't simply bolt onto a Van Norman mill. You're going to have to make up an adapter plate of sort. I have fitted a Bridgeport head to an old Kemp and Kearney Trecker horizontal mills years ago.

Keep looking on ebay. Here’s one, not in good shape,, that may take some work. The starting bid is $75.00. It didn’t receive any bids last time it was listed. I know that it’s located in Canada. It’s just to show what can be around.

http://cgi.ebay.com/BRIDGEPORT-MILL...5|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:0|293:1|294:50

Other places to look are newspapers, Craig’s List, and used machinery dealers in your area. Below is one located in Ohio. Though they had several a few weeks ago, none are listed today. But they have a complete older round ram Bridgeport for only $1,000.00. They do negotiate some... This machine and some work would be a great garage mill. There’s a good market for a machine like this for years to come. And you’ll be able get your money back out of it..

http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com...SC=&pageSize=50&currentPageIndex=0&searchNAP=

 

[toadjammer]

If this was going to be the only mill in your garage. Might you seriously consider mounting a standard Bridgeport head on it. It will then have a sensitive quill movement and make the mill far more usable. And the 5C collets are much cheaper and easier to find.

OCG,
I am sure you just made a typo, because most bridgeports use and R8 collet or tool holder. I would definatley stay away from the "M" head Bridgeport and go with a 2J or J head.

Kevin54,
A tool holder is a solid piece, a collet is slotted or has reliefs so that when pulled it closes on the tool or part. There are tool holders that use collets, but that is a whole nother ball game.

First off GSSFC need to figure out what he is going to use the machine for and what "tool holders" it uses. At that point he can determine which sizes he will need to buy. And if he decides to mount a Bridgeport head he probably won't need the smaller holders.


GSSFC please post a relative location and some of us may be able to let you know of a local machinery dealer to help with tooling or a BP head.

 

[OldCarGuy]

OCG,
I am sure you just made a typo, because most bridgeports use and R8 collet or tool holder. I would definatley stay away from the "M" head Bridgeport and go with a 2J or J head.

Good call,, my bad! I was thinking R8 and typed 5C... The collect that many lathes and fixtures use.

Like you say,, Definitely pass on a Bridgeport "M" head. And go with either a "J" head.

 

[GSSFC]

I live in Wolfeboro NH, I thought that was in my info...it will be shortly!

I have no need or use for the machine right now...I was mostly interested in drilling capability and some machining. I thought that the table up and down would be fine for infrequent drilling, but I can see how that would be cumbersome. Perhaps this isn't the best machine for my needs?

OCG posted up a Bridgeport that looks more like what I would need...should I consider something else?

Tim

 

[Kevin54]

Kevin54,
A tool holder is a solid piece, a collet is slotted or has reliefs so that when pulled it closes on the tool or part. There are tool holders that use collets, but that is a whole nother ball game.

I know the difference between the toolholder and collet holder but maybe I mentioned toolholder somewhere. I was talking about a smaller collet holder that fits into a larger collet

You can also get a straight shanked collet holder that fits into another collet to run smaller end mills. But what you need to know is exactly what collet fits your machine, so to give you that, a number from the machine would be a huge help. Then we can have you cutting small ones out of big ones in no time.

We use both toolholders and collets in the Toolroom.

 

[toadjammer]

The machine will be a workhorse in your shop with the power feeds that are built into it. The Bridgeport head is a great idea for that mill and should not be discounted because the Bridgeport turret style mill seems more popular or more universal. The rigidity of the horizantal/vertical mills is great especially when hogging alot of metal or larger facing cuts. It wouldn't be out of hand to drill some holes without a quill but would be handy to have one. I have seen heads in good shape for under $500 and with a little work you can make it work.
Here is a place in MA that works on bridgeports and may have an extra head:
http://www.j-lscraping.com/

 

[applescotty]

If you decide to keep it, join the Van Norman Yahoo group:
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/vannorman/

Lots of good information and helpful members.

Scott

 

[GSSFC]

Ha, I forgot about this thread. Already sold it. The lack of quill, lack of tooling, lack of three phase, and lack of space sent it on to someone else!

Tim