How to get 2 meters from SoCal Edison

[Harley Monster]

I live in Southern California and would like to have a second meter for my planned garaged. SoCal Edison has a rule: One meter per residential lot unless you are commercial.

Going to Commercial causes a whole new can of worms with HOA and County.

Has anyone figured out how to do this without getting grief?

Anyone have any ideas?

 

[rsanter]

I work for SCE so I can ask a few questions
have you spoken with a service planner?
for AG customers I know they can do that but a basic residential that is a bit unusual

one question....with your zoning can you do mulit family? that way you can call the shop (with apartment inside) a second unit

bob

 

[ddawg16]

I have a couple of questions.....

Why do you want a second meter?

And, what is a "garaged"?

 

[Harley Monster]

Thanks for the quick reply Rsanter.

My zoning is RA residential/Agriculture, I have 5 acres of avocados and grapefruit. No multi-family residences allowed here, I think that is why they will not install a second meter.

My designer has spoken with a Planner in Romoland, he said one service panel per parcel, but I could apply for commercial (but I am not) and afraid it would cause problems with my HOA and the County. I live in Riverside Co.

Any ideas?

 

[Harley Monster]

Ha! Garaged is a typo, should be garage.

I want a second meter because our house is already on Tier 5 billing and the first light switch I turn on will be billed at 30-some cents a KW/hr. That makes welding and plasma cutting expensive.

My electrician first suggested it and for that reason.

There is above ground service to the house and there is a 12 KW transformer about 50' from my garage and I am the only service on the tranformer. The install for Edison would be pretty easy, we could go overhead or I could put in underground conduit.

 

[Falcon67]

I imagine they are very similar to Texas in that you really don't want a second meter. They may (do here) bill you at commercial rates. Commercial means - here anyway - that they sample your usage at like 15 minute intervals and bill you based on peak demand. On to co-op utility I now use, they don't charge commercial for the 2nd meter but the min bill is $30 per month. Been there, done that - the drop from the pole to my old shop was right across the alley - easy pie. But a few months of commercial billing made pay back on running 40' of wire and adding power taps on the house meter real quick. Better check into all of that before you commit to the second meter.

This is all in the tarriff they file with the state, so it's SOP. But in your case, it may be worth the expense. The SCE guy may be able to put a better point on it.

What - does the HOA get copies of your power bill? HTF would they know how you are billed.

 

[Harley Monster]

That's the problem IM, no second dwelling or multi-family in this area. You can have a guest house, but no cooking facilities. So many people have bootlegged in second residences they are cracking down. I think they instantly think second residence when you request a second meter.

To Falcon67, the HOA would not get the electric bills, but all the plans and permits have to be approved by the archetectural committee. The real kicker is the archetectural committee has an illegal apartment, plus a illegal trailer with illegal septic system where his own illegal lives! It is one of those do as I say not what I do things I guess. BTW...I have photos of all of that stuff if he gives me any @#%$!

One of the joys living in probably the most regulated state in the nation, but I would not trade our weather with anyone.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Sounds like you have a home based small farm business, packing and processing your fruits and whatnot, and need power, at an agricultural rate.

Charles

 

[Harley Monster]

The farm is a business and I do file a form F on my taxes, this could be a possibility after all I will be storing my tractor and trailers (not 18 wheelers) in the garage and will be doing maintenance on them. The garage and shop though is primarily for building street rods for my self equipment and RV storage.

I will ask the Edison planner that question...Thanks!

 

[rsanter]

Thanks for the quick reply Rsanter.

My zoning is RA residential/Agriculture, I have 5 acres of avocados and grapefruit. No multi-family residences allowed here, I think that is why they will not install a second meter.

My designer has spoken with a Planner in Romoland, he said one service panel per parcel, but I could apply for commercial (but I am not) and afraid it would cause problems with my HOA and the County. I live in Riverside Co.

Any ideas?

I am not an expert on rates or service plans, but this is what I know or think I know.
if you are on ag property and are farming the land then as long as the shop is to support the ag then you should be able to get a meter on that with an ag rate. I think you need to talk with a commercial service rep. I will call one I know over here and ask a few quastions to see what I can come up with

bob

 

[lametec]

I have a separate meter on my gararage. My property is divided into two lots; house one one, garage on other.

It was like that when I bought it. Garage bill is about $25+/month.

 

[Harley Monster]

RSanter, please check for PM.

 

[Falcon67]

The farm is a business and I do file a form F on my taxes, this could be a possibility after all I will be storing my tractor and trailers (not 18 wheelers) in the garage and will be doing maintenance on them. The garage and shop though is primarily for building street rods for my self equipment and RV storage.

I will ask the Edison planner that question...Thanks!

That's a good idea - around here, anything over about 5 acres (I think - not sure) qualifies as farm and there's all kinds of breaks on power, taxes, etc, etc. A farm needs a barn and billing that power separately actually may help your tax filing and farm expense tracking. I would think you could write all that off and depreciate the barn too boot.

 

[Harley Monster]

That's a good idea - around here, anything over about 5 acres (I think - not sure) qualifies as farm and there's all kinds of breaks on power, taxes, etc, etc. A farm needs a barn and billing that power separately actually may help your tax filing and farm expense tracking. I would think you could write all that off and depreciate the barn too boot.

Falcon, my accountant already has told me, "You are building an implement shed, aren't you!" (wink, wink) The only problem there is my income from the farm is down since NAFTA opened up the Western States to imported avocados where before we were protected and the last 3 years we have been on water rationing plus they took our Ag discount away on our water.

 

[ishiboo]

Exact opposite situation for me... I have a house and barn with 2 meters on the house and a separate for the barn. This costs me $21/month just in power meters

 

[Harley Monster]

Ishiboo, this is certainly something to consider too.

I am in a Tier system where the more power you use the more you pay. My house alone is in Tier 5 and I pay over 30 cents for each Kw hour. For your $21 I could pay for over 60 kw hours.

I would be interested in hearing any other reports such as Ishiboo's.

 

[Falcon67]

The only problem there is my income from the farm is down since NAFT opened up the Western States to imported avocados where before we were protected and the last 3 years we have been on water rationing plus they took our Ag discount away on our water.

Ouch - I really hate to hear that.

 

[Grumpy365]

That's a good idea - around here, anything over about 5 acres (I think - not sure) qualifies as farm and there's all kinds of breaks on power, taxes, etc, etc. A farm needs a barn and billing that power separately actually may help your tax filing and farm expense tracking. I would think you could write all that off and depreciate the barn too boot.

Not to get to far off topic, but
In brazoria county, you have to have 9 acres of improved pasture or 15 acres un-improved pasture, to ag exempt a piece of property.

 

[Harley Monster]

Thanks Grumpy, because of you and Ishiboo we are looking into whether we can get an Ag exemption and get a second meter.

It may take a while, but when we get it figured out I will post the results which might be able to help someone else.

 

[mrb]

SCE's service manual says for agricultural services they provide it as 240 3ph delta or 277/480. So i dont know if you can get a second 120/240 1ph service and call it agricultural.

here is the number for your service planning office (951) 928-8290 call them and ask to speak to a service planner. ask what your options are for an AG service. do not make any mention of your tier issue on the house meter, garage, shop, etc. you need the service for an ag building.

if you end up with 240D 3ph service, you will need a transformer to get 120v circuits from it. dont expect to be able to do this with a $100 panel from home depot. you will be between $500 and $1000 for your meter/main, and another couple hundred for a 3ph panelboard

 

[Harley Monster]

Thank you very much mrb, you sound very knowledgable on this.

Question for you: I live in a rural environment on the end of a cul de sac and my Edison service comes overhead about 1/4 mile from the road. On the next to last pole there is what I was told a 12.5 KW transformer that serves only my house. This transformer is about 50' from where my buildiing pad will be. Would there be 3 phase power to that transformer or is that something you only find in industrial areas?

I don't know anything about electric utilities, I could easily wire the place, but have no knowledge of how the power gets here, it sounds like you do. Do you know the answer to this?

Thanks in advance.

 

[oleguy]

look at the wires on poles.if 3 wires you have 3ph.if 2 wires single phase.

 

[mrb]

a lack of 3ph distribution could be a good thing as they might give you a 120/240 AG service based on available facilities. this is pure speculation -call the service planner

 

[Harley Monster]

Only 2 wires mrb, I thought that might be the case after I sent the last message.

We have talked to the planner, but when we did we were just asking if we could have a second meter, we did not tie it to being Ag property, but we will.

I appreciate your help, I will let you know how it turns out.

 

[cachevelle66]

HM have you started the process of permits with county yet? The planning dept. is a whole lot of fun and $$$$, I just finished a garage last year in Riverside county. The county was a PIA, the HOA maybe the least of worries. I live in unincorp area also.

Good luck.

 

[Harley Monster]

CaChevelle, Thanks for the good luck wish.

My designer/contractor and the engineer have just completed a project in my neighborhood and they seem very up to date on the process.

My neighbor gave this team a raving review and recommended them highly; his project is complete and they are all still friends. Now how often does that happen?

You are right it is not cheap, but if you want to dance in Riverside Co. you have to pay the band.

I have enjoyed this forum and have learned so much, so I intend to do a building thread and perhaps my posts will help someone like I have been helped.

 

[ptschram]

Good luck. I run a for-profit business from my barn and my wife and accountant would prefer that I have a separate meter and service... But, if I do that, then all the barn has to come up to current code.

The lowest estimate to improve the electrical service to meet current code alone was $17K. The County building dept (who has been very helpful with neighbor complaints-surprisingly enough) has indicated that if I wish to open the shop up completely to commercial use, I'll need to be ADA compliant, add a restroom, additional septic, hot water, and on and on.

Having more than ample power on a separate meter isn't attractive enough to me to justify the expense that I'd have a difficult time re-couping in the seven years I'd depreciate it over.

 

[Harley Monster]

Ptschram, I sure don't blame you there.

This is a personal use only, some legit maintance and storage of farm equipment with the rest being RV and car storage plus a workshop. We are permitting the septic and rest room. All of this is OK with the county, what they don't want is it to become a second residence on the property and a second meter to them is one of the things that indicates a second residence

 

[mrb]

Good luck. I run a for-profit business from my barn and my wife and accountant would prefer that I have a separate meter and service... But, if I do that, then all the barn has to come up to current code.

The lowest estimate to improve the electrical service to meet current code alone was $17K. The County building dept (who has been very helpful with neighbor complaints-surprisingly enough) has indicated that if I wish to open the shop up completely to commercial use, I'll need to be ADA compliant, add a restroom, additional septic, hot water, and on and on.

Having more than ample power on a separate meter isn't attractive enough to me to justify the expense that I'd have a difficult time re-couping in the seven years I'd depreciate it over.

all you need to do is put a submeter on the feeder to the barn and you'll have your energy costs for tax and accounting purposes. see here http://www.emon.com/index.html few hundred bucks and youll be all set

 

[NUTTSGT]

Wow, this thread is kinda interesting. I have a second meter on my garage because it used to be a business. Luckily, I get charged at the residential rant, even more luckier that I don't live in Ca.

 

[Slowboat]

Harley, why do you use some much power for your first meter? Perhaps it's worth looking at efficiency gains to lower your rate. CFLs, different heating sources, insulation and air sealing, etc, compressed air, pumps, etc - sound like they would be a decent investment (depending on what is using all that power) that would lower your usage and your rate at the same time, which could negate the whole issue in the first place.

Sometimes the answer isn't more power, but using what you have more efficiently.

 

[Norcal]

Harley, why do you use some much power for your first meter? Perhaps it's worth looking at efficiency gains to lower your rate. CFLs, different heating sources, insulation and air sealing, etc, compressed air, pumps, etc - sound like they would be a decent investment (depending on what is using all that power) that would lower your usage and your rate at the same time, which could negate the whole issue in the first place.

Sometimes the answer isn't more power, but using what you have more efficiently.

I am in PG&E territory & the base line rates are crazy here too, this is a copy & paste from my bill:

Electric Charges $47.34
Baseline Quantity 114.30000 Kwh
Baseline Usage 114.30000 Kwh @ $0.11877
101-130% of Baseline 34.29000 Kwh @ $0.13502
131-200% of Baseline 80.01000 Kwh @ $0.29062
201-300% of Baseline 14.70000 Kwh @ $0.40029


More.

Charges
01/01/2011 - 01/21/2011
Electric Charges $109.42
Baseline Quantity 266.70000 Kwh
Baseline Usage 266.70000 Kwh @ $0.12233
101-130% of Baseline 80.01000 Kwh @ $0.13907
131-200% of Baseline 186.69000 Kwh @ $0.28011
201-300% of Baseline 34.30000 Kwh @ $0.38978
Net Charges $109.42


Kinda hard to read but a 2nd meter may be the only way for the OP, but depends on the rate schedule that will be used.....

 

[ptschram]

all you need to do is put a submeter on the feeder to the barn and you'll have your energy costs for tax and accounting purposes. see here http://www.emon.com/index.html few hundred bucks and youll be all set

That would satisfy them, but with only a 60 amp service, if the compressor and plasma cutter are running when someone wants to raise the lift, less than good things happen!

 

[ptschram]

My power costs us about $0.05/kw-hr on a rural membership. When I worked for AEP, I paid the lowest commercial rate which wasn't much better than the nickel we pay now.

Go nuke! most of our power is generated by the D. C. Cook nuke plant. At least that's what the tariff is based upon, but then again, it was touted as "too cheap to meter".

 

[tjw2021]

I work for SCE so I can ask a few questions
have you spoken with a service planner?
for AG customers I know they can do that but a basic residential that is a bit unusual

one question....with your zoning can you do mulit family? that way you can call the shop (with apartment inside) a second unit

bob

@rsanter I was wondering if could help on the situation I have described below.

We have a client ( a large Oil and Gas company) that uses about 30,000,000 kWhs a year. They have 1 meter that reads all the usage from their operations . The oil and gas company has about 6 miles of power lines that make up their behind the meter infrastructure which spans across 3 different parcels.

We are trying to separate the load into 3 meters, 1 meter on each parcel. I was wondering if this possible and where would we start! Any response would be appreciated.

 

[rsanter]

@rsanter I was wondering if could help on the situation I have described below.

We have a client ( a large Oil and Gas company) that uses about 30,000,000 kWhs a year. They have 1 meter that reads all the usage from their operations . The oil and gas company has about 6 miles of power lines that make up their behind the meter infrastructure which spans across 3 different parcels.

We are trying to separate the load into 3 meters, 1 meter on each parcel. I was wondering if this possible and where would we start! Any response would be r

If you have a large customer I would recommend they have a meeting with their account manager
I am hesitant to say anything I am not an expert in. I can say that they account managers are very good at their job and can advise the best course.
I am on the education and automation/controls side of the house.

If you have an issue getting a hold of the account manager, just send me a personal message and I’ll get some i formation to get to the right person

 

[nadogail]

Can you inform your utility that you want to have a 3 Phase Pump on your Water Well?

If I didn’t have the Electrical Power I wanted for an occasional use I would consider running a Generator.

My 13 horse generator will run my Arc Welder, Saw and Compressor for remote jobs. The generator and other tools roll into my van.

 

[Zeke]

This thread is 12.5 years old and brought to life by a one-post poster.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

Move!

North Carolina isn't so bad after all; we have three separate services. One for the shop, house and horse barn!

I can see why people are leaving California...

 

[Norcal]

OLD THREAD ALERT!!!!!