I have good aim

[ddawg16]

Had the rough inspection on my garage the other day....I expected to get dinged on the framing and nothing on the electrical....it was the other way around....

1. No more than 6 breakers in the sub panel in my garage without a main breaker in the panel....(it's feed from the main panel at my house). The basic reasoning is that about 6 breakers is the most you can flip in case of an "Oh ****".

2. NO Romex in conduit. Has to be un-seathed wire such as THHN.

3. I need a ground rod at the garage (even though I'm tied to the house ground).

Ok...not a big deal.....

So yesterday I set about to pound in that ground rod near the service entrance...my power comes from my house in a 3/4" PVC conduit with 3 #6 wires and a bare ground....

I have realy good aim.....I could not have hit that PVC more square on top....drove that rod right through the PVC...almost severed the neutral wire...nicked one of the 120V lines...shorted out the line...triped the breaker.....the first clue was when I looked up and wondered why my garge lights were not on.....

I guess this explains why it's so easy to get my wife pregnant.....

 

[walrus]

Had the rough inspection on my garage the other day....I expected to get dinged on the framing and nothing on the electrical....it was the other way around....

1. No more than 6 breakers in the sub panel in my garage without a main breaker in the panel....(it's feed from the main panel at my house). The basic reasoning is that about 6 breakers is the most you can flip in case of an "Oh ****".

2. NO Romex in conduit. Has to be un-seathed wire such as THHN.

3. I need a ground rod at the garage (even though I'm tied to the house ground).

Ok...not a big deal.....

So yesterday I set about to pound in that ground rod near the service entrance...my power comes from my house in a 3/4" PVC conduit with 3 #6 wires and a bare ground....

I have realy good aim.....I could not have hit that PVC more square on top....drove that rod right through the PVC...almost severed the neutral wire...nicked one of the 120V lines...shorted out the line...triped the breaker.....the first clue was when I looked up and wondered why my garge lights were not on.....

I guess this explains why it's so easy to get my wife pregnant.....

Wow, nice aim ya got there, seriously that *****.

No romex in conduit or no romex in the wrong size conduit? I'd like to hear the code section for that rejection.

 

[skeletonizer]

So it's true. Their are others like me.



Also, the no romex in conduit rule is dumb. I put a 1 1/4" inch peice of empty conduit from my box up into my attic for "future consideration". The inspector never mentioned it. I am pretty sure it will be jammed full of romex one day.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The "no romex in conduit" rule must be local. There is nothing forbidding it in the NEC. In fact, Chapter 9 of the code, Table I, Note (9) discusses how to calculate area or cross section of "multi-conductor cables" and flexible cords which is needed for calculating fill of conduits. It also states that a multi-conductor cable is to be treated as a single conductor for calculating percentage of fill of conduit. They would not tell you how to do it, if it were not OK. Romex in conduit in the ground, or in a slab is probably NOT ok, as usually the wire in Romex is not rated for wet locations, and conduit in concrete slab or underground is considered a wet location.

Also, the no romex in conduit rule is dumb. I put a 1 1/4" inch peice of empty conduit from my box up into my attic for "future consideration". The inspector never mentioned it. I am pretty sure it will be jammed full of romex one day.

The problem you will run into, code wise, is that, when you run multiple conductors thru the same conduit, you have to de-rate the amp capacity of those conductors. Anything over three current carrying wires becomes cause for derating. Its not usually an issue until you exceed nine current carrying conductors (thats five runs of romex) at which point the derating will usually take a #12 wire and limit it to 15 amps. You also have fill requirements to consider.

Charles

 

[skeletonizer]

The "no romex in conduit" rule must be local. There is nothing forbidding it in the NEC. In fact, Chapter 9 of the code, Table I, Note (9) discusses how to calculate area or cross section of "multi-conductor cables" and flexible cords which is needed for calculating fill of conduits. It also states that a multi-conductor cable is to be treated as a single conductor for calculating percentage of fill of conduit. They would not tell you how to do it, if it were not OK. Romex in conduit in the ground, or in a slab is probably NOT ok, as usually the wire in Romex is not rated for wet locations, and conduit in concrete slab or underground is considered a wet location.



The problem you will run into, code wise, is that, when you run multiple conductors thru the same conduit, you have to de-rate the amp capacity of those conductors. Anything over three current carrying wires becomes cause for derating. Its not usually an issue until you exceed nine current carrying conductors (thats five runs of romex) at which point the derating will usually take a #12 wire and limit it to 15 amps. You also have fill requirements to consider.

Charles

Even on a run of 2', just to get to the attic?

 

[ddawg16]

No romex in conduit or no romex in the wrong size conduit? I'd like to hear the code section for that rejection.

Considering some of the other things the 'could' have dinged me for.....that is not the hill I want to die on.....

Overall, the inspector is being very fair.....actually, they guy is good about answering questions and offering advice....I have no complaints......

 

[skeletonizer]

Considering some of the other things the 'could' have dinged me for.....that is not the hill I want to die on.....

Overall, the inspector is being very fair.....actually, they guy is good about answering questions and offering advice....I have no complaints......

That is nice. The guys in my area are not very helpful. Thay have the "it's not my job" syndrome.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Note 4 of chapter 9 tells us to disregard the adjustment factors for number of conductors in a ******, which is defined as 24" or less. ******* still have fill requirements, but with a higher percentage, 60%. The catch to all of this, is that the tables, fill requirements, etc. only apply to "complete conduit systems" where the conduit is properly ended in a box, panelboard, device, etc on each end.

Not sure what the ramifications of using an open ended conduit are, except that the code does require separation of conductors (no tight bundling) and requires derating of the conductors if they are "bundled" or not separated over a distance exceeding 24".

Charles

 

[skeletonizer]

Note 4 of chapter 9 tells us to disregard the adjustment factors for number of conductors in a ******, which is defined as 24" or less. ******* still have fill requirements, but with a higher percentage, 60%. The catch to all of this, is that the tables, fill requirements, etc. only apply to "complete conduit systems" where the conduit is properly ended in a box, panelboard, device, etc on each end.

Not sure what the ramifications of using an open ended conduit are, except that the code does require separation of conductors (no tight bundling) and requires derating of the conductors if they are "bundled" or not separated over a distance exceeding 24".

Charles

Thanks.

 

[walrus]

Considering some of the other things the 'could' have dinged me for.....that is not the hill I want to die on.....

Overall, the inspector is being very fair.....actually, they guy is good about answering questions and offering advice....I have no complaints......

I don't blame you but his take on romex in conduit is wrong, its done all the time, physical protection would be one example.

 

[LoneGunman]

I don't blame you but his take on romex in conduit is wrong, its done all the time, physical protection would be one example.

I got nailed for it by our %^%$^&^ inspector, one is cool the other is an azz. Of course if I asked for an article number he's referring to he'd be a PITA on every job in the future. I usually don't run romex with the inuslation down a conduit but it was late and I didn't have a romex to 1/2" EMT connector so I just sleeved it with the insulation.

As I said, I like using the connector, if you are not familiar with them (you probably are) it's pretty much the same thing as an EMT connector, an RMC threaded coupling and a romex connector put together.

 

[ironroad 9c1]

Worst thing I got nailed for was not having 2 ******** ground rods..out at the meter, I only had one.Really never figured that out.

 

[walrus]

.Really never figured that out.

You have to have 2 unless you can show one is at 25ohms or less. Most guys just drive 2 and be done with it. Although now you have to use a a piece of rebar from the footer if its available. In alot of locals you best use it or you 'll be chipping concrete to hook to it

 

[ironroad 9c1]

Never till I did mine did I ever see a house with 2 ground rods.

 

[ddawg16]

Here is a pic of the temp repair (electrical tape around the wires)....

I wish I had thought of taking a pic of the ground rod through the middle of the conduit.....it was such a pretty sight....

Not the best photo (from my phone)...but that white stuff is the concrete of the foundation.....I need to chip some of it out so I can get the new conduit on....

 

[mrb]

are you going to re pull that with new wire? Or are you going to try to repair the wires?

 

[ddawg16]

are you going to re pull that with new wire? Or are you going to try to repair the wires?

Pulling new wire....some things are not worth taking short cuts on.....One of them is untouched so it's just one #6 blk and #6 wht....

I have to pull the wires out anyway in order to get the new section of PVC on...that is going to be the hard part....

 

[mrb]

Pulling new wire....some things are not worth taking short cuts on.....One of them is untouched so it's just one #6 blk and #6 wht....

I have to pull the wires out anyway in order to get the new section of PVC on...that is going to be the hard part....

good to hear you are pulling new wire. many people would have just taped it up, which in an underground conduit water will eventually get in it and it will start arcing and burn up.

 

[walrus]

Pulling new wire....some things are not worth taking short cuts on.....One of them is untouched so it's just one #6 blk and #6 wht....

I have to pull the wires out anyway in order to get the new section of PVC on...that is going to be the hard part....

They make a clam shell fitting for repairing just such a thing. Not sure if they make it for that size?. I've never used one but I've seen them, looked pretty slick

 

[mrb]

They make a clam shell fitting for repairing just such a thing. Not sure if they make it for that size?. I've never used one but I've seen them, looked pretty slick

the carlon split kits? http://www.carlon.com/Brochures/7F81-Split Kits-Low.pdf start at 2in

From the look of the pic, shouldnt be too hard to fix with normal conduit and coupling. Might have to dig the left side back a little more to be able to lift it enough. Glue a coupling and piece to the right side and let it cure, then cut to length leaving about 1/2in gap between the new pipe and left side pipe (once left side pipe is cut clean). glue coupling to new pipe, then heavily coat left pipe with glue, heavy coat to get more working time, and inside of coupling. Lift both pipes up, align the left pipe into the coupler and push back down -hard and dont hesitate or it will end up stuck halfway. Ive done this several times, and only had trouble the first time

 

[ddawg16]

Got it fixed on Sunday....had to chip away some of the concrete....easy with an air chissel.....the conduit repair was the easy part....pulling the wire all the way from the main panel is a *****....there is only 2 90's.....but 3 #6 wires in a 3/4" pvc conduit really is at the limit....I wish I had bumped it up to 1" before the foundation was poured.....

Note to self....when in doubt, go one size bigger....

Anyway....I drove the ground rod into the ground BEFORE I covered up the conduit....not making that mistake again.....

As soon as they buy off the electrical I'll drive the ground rod the rest of the way into the ground so as to keep the stub from becoming a trip hazard.

 

[thdewey]

Boy, I'm glad that the inspector told me before I ran the cable that I'd need a ground rod. Because I probably would have done the same thing. It's only 10 feet from the house ground rod (the garge is detached) but still required.

Thanks again Charles and Ddawg for all your electrical help during my build.