Metal halide lights don't work - why?

[Fifty]

I have four 400w metal halide lights in my new shop. They don't work. When I flip the switch the ballasts start to hum, but none of them even attempt to start. It seems odd to me that all four bulbs would be burned out. And when metal halide lights burn out, don't they still usually light for a few minutes? The bulbs are kind of a dark color, but I'm not sure what they would look like if they were burnt out.

Anybody know what's going on here? I don't want to spend a ton of money on new bulbs if they aren't going to work. It it very common for caps/ignitors to go out on these things?

 

[laser3kw]

obvious question - are they supplied with 120v or 220 v?
it sounds like these were "previously owned" / used lights? Did you see themlight in the previous location? If so, is it a possiblity that they are requiring a different suppy voltage?

 

[bbass]

Are the metal halide ballasts integral or remote? If the ballasts are remote what is the total wire distance from the socket to ballast? Depending upon the ignitor the ballast can be remote from 5' to 50' away. Can you take some pictures of the part numbers on ballast caps and igniters?

The hum you are referring to is dependant upon the type of ballast, if it is an open core and coil you will have hum, a potted core and coil and electronic ballasts produce less noise.

 

[rockwithjason]

probably the easiest method to trouble shoot this is to replace one lamp and see if it lights up. you could by lamp and ballast testing equipment but few want to lay out the cash

 

[Norcal]

Are these pulse start MH? If not if you have a clamp on ammeter you can test the output, for a M59, 400W lamp the RMS voltage should be 285-320 volts, and when the lamp leads are shorted it should read between 3.5-4.5 amperes, with a ammeter. Pulse start uses a high voltage pulse to start the lamp, & a multi-meter will not fare well.

Data taken from a Advance Transformer troubleshooting guide.


The easiest method as said by Jason is to use a new lamp, but stay with a quality name brand like Sylvania, or Phillips, & maybe GE.

Also, check the ballast input connections, if a multi-tapped ballast (120/208/240/277V) that it is connected for the correct voltage, 277 volts is the default voltage from the factory.

 

[Fifty]

They are standard high bay lights with the ballast above the bulb. I don't think they are pulse start. I think they are hooked up to 240v, though they are multi tap ballasts. I'm told they "used to work". I took them all down (That was fun, being fork lifted 20' in the air!) so I can clean them out and check the wiring inside.

Are they supposed to have a safety chain holding them up? The main hook broke off of one of them and it was hanging by the cord! That could kill somebody or total a car....

 

[Rigpig]

Yup, always a good idea to hang those with a safety chain for that reason. Check that the ballast was wired to your supplied voltage, sometimes overlooked on those fixtures.

 

[larry_g]

Are these in the building you just moved into? They were installed and working at one time in there? If so then I would assume that they were wired correctly and working as you said, at one time. Most likely they are old. I would start with checking the bulbs and ballasts, and that they are getting proper voltage supplied when the switch is on. Are these things on breakers or screw in fuses? If on fuses then one leg of a 240v could be blown.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[zilla68]

post a pic of the bulb, I have about 25 cases of bulbs that will probably fit that light, and I'll sell you a case cheap

 

[Fifty]

Well, I replaced one of the bulbs and it worked. I had to spend $30 at Home Depot though! I'm taking this bulb back and ordering them for $9 at 1000bulbs.com.

Still seems odd to me that all four would have been burned out.

post a pic of the bulb, I have about 25 cases of bulbs that will probably fit that light, and I'll sell you a case cheap

Thanks, but I need to order a bunch of other bulbs anyway. Might as well get them all in one big box.

 

[laser3kw]

Well, I replaced one of the bulbs and it worked.

great news!
always have a "plan b"

 

[rockwithjason]

I WIN!

 

[Fishplate]

Well, I replaced one of the bulbs and it worked. I had to spend $30 at Home Depot though! I'm taking this bulb back and ordering them for $9

Call me old-fashioned, but...you're returning a perfectly good bulb to the store as used because you discovered it was more than you wanted to pay? Didn't you notice it was $30 when you took it off the shelf?

 

[Fifty]

Call me old-fashioned, but...you're returning a perfectly good bulb to the store as used because you discovered it was more than you wanted to pay? Didn't you notice it was $30 when you took it off the shelf?

Let me put it this way:
I took it back because Home Depot is ****** people at $30! Would I take it back to the corner hardware store? No, because their purchase price is probably $25 if they sell it for $30. Home Depot, on the other hand, probably paid less than $10.

PS - I spend thousands of dollars per year at Home Depot, paying their high retail prices, so if I need to borrow a bulb for a day I see no problem. (That's the only reason HD can get away with charging what they do, they have a good return policy, which states, you can return anything for 30 days for any reason, they don't care why)

 

[nehog]

...
Are they supposed to have a safety chain holding them up? The main hook broke off of one of them and it was hanging by the cord! That could kill somebody or total a car....

Yes, code requires safety chains.

Well, I replaced one of the bulbs and it worked. I had to spend $30 at Home Depot though! I'm taking this bulb back and ordering them for $9 at 1000bulbs.com.

Still seems odd to me that all four would have been burned out.


Thanks, but I need to order a bunch of other bulbs anyway. Might as well get them all in one big box.

They were not 'burned out'. What happened was that you tried to use pulse start bulbs in a probe start fixture. Probe start bulbs are not often sold anymore (less efficient) as the fixtures are now out of date.

If someone else can't get you bulbs, I too have a bunch sitting on the shelf that I'll sell.

 

[Fifty]

They were not 'burned out'. What happened was that you tried to use pulse start bulbs in a probe start fixture.

Huh? The old bulbs were supposedly installed and working in this building in the past. They used to work and now they don't.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The catch with MH bulbs is to make sure and use the same designator bulb for starters. My probe start bulbs are M59, this is the ANSI designation. This is the designation for a 400 watt series MH probe start bulb. If it says this, it will screw in and light, IF the data tag says to use M59 bulbs. However, there are variations in these bulbs. Mine say BU-HORZ on them, which means Base up, or Horizontal, meaning they cannot be installed in other positions, such as base down. The bulbs are position sensitive. I'm not familiar with all of the codes, but THIS LINK does a pretty good job of explaining it, and THIS MAY HELP also. My bulbs are energy saver 360 watt bulbs, that work in a 400 watt fixture. They are white finish, rather than clear. Some bulbs are required to have a lower shield on the fixture, some do not. Its not an absolute, but if you don't have the lower shield and a bulb that requires it breaks, it will continue to burn but you will not have any protection from UV and can get a bad sunburn in a very short time.

My fixtures are open bottomed. I have several used, spare bulbs, and I found some at the Habitat ReStore new but the are clear and require the lower shield. I could use them, they would work, but the ReStore, due to their stupid manager put such a high price on them $25 each, that I will let them sit awhile. They seem to finally be discounting stuff however, so they may have changed managers. (she finds the absolute highest retail price she can come up with, and puts half of that on the product, claiming its a "deal").

Know your bulbs!!!!!!!!!!

Charles

 

[Fifty]

Yeah...I noticed that 1000bulbs.com has horizontal burn, vertical burn, and universal burn bulbs. The universal bulbs are the cheapest for some reason?

I found a guy selling some used lights like mine with bulbs for $20 each. That will be my plan B if the bulbs I ordered don't work right...I still could probably use 2 or 3 more.

 

[nehog]

Huh? The old bulbs were supposedly installed and working in this building in the past. They used to work and now they don't.

Sorry, I though you'd put new bulbs in the fixtures.

Q: have you checked the voltage at the fixture to make sure you really have 240 volts (or near about?) I do know that new bulbs will strike an arc at a lower voltage than older ones.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Are these in the building you just moved into? They were installed and working at one time in there? If so then I would assume that they were wired correctly and working as you said, at one time. Most likely they are old. I would start with checking the bulbs and ballasts, and that they are getting proper voltage supplied when the switch is on. Are these things on breakers or screw in fuses? If on fuses then one leg of a 240v could be blown.

lg
no neat sig line

If one leg of a 240v circuit is open, then the circuit wouldnt be complete and the ballast wouldnt even buzz.

 

[Fifty]

Are these things on breakers or screw in fuses? If on fuses then one leg of a 240v could be blown.

I missed this before...they are on a modern 30A double pole breaker.

Where exactly am I supposed to hook the safety chain on these? Maybe the little hole in that tab about half way down the ballast?


As you can see, the hooks readily break right off...

 

[rockwithjason]

see the little loop on the bottom of the ballast case shown in the pic? that looks like a good place for an s hook and some jack chain.

 

[ishiboo]

Well, I replaced one of the bulbs and it worked. I had to spend $30 at Home Depot though! I'm taking this bulb back and ordering them for $9 at 1000bulbs.com.

Still seems odd to me that all four would have been burned out.


Thanks, but I need to order a bunch of other bulbs anyway. Might as well get them all in one big box.

Keep the bulb you bought, c'mon.

As you said, they are 20' in the air... having them all burned out is not really that surprising.

 

[BillK]

I'm taking this bulb back and ordering them for $9

Sorry, that's no different than stealing

 

[2ManyProjects]

I'm taking this bulb back and ordering them for $9 at 1000bulbs.com.

Sorry, that's no different than stealing

That's going a little far.

While I agree that returning the bulb to H.D. after it has been used simply because someone else is offering it for less money is ethically marginal, the fact remains that this IS expressly permittted by their return policy. And because of that policy, you, or I, or anyone else who shops there, either knows or should know that whatever they pick up off the shelf MAY indeed be someone else's cast-off.

That said, the "I spend lots of money at Home Depot, so I'm OK with ripping them off" rationalization is both irrelevant and illogical. It's NOT H.D. he's stiffing; it's the poor schmuck who happens to get stuck with that used bulb after it finds its way back onto the store shelf. Even in the context of that first "experimental" bulb, "Fifty" had the option of ordering it from 1000bulbs.com; so he chose to spend the extra money at H.D. (presumably due to the convenience factor).

Hence, were I in "Fifty"'s position, I'd either chalk that extra $21 up to the cost of troubleshooting the problem (cheap at twice the price, as compared to calling in a pro to do the troubleshooting for me), or bring in my receipt and a print-out of the 1000bulbs.com webpage, and ask them to price match. But either way, I'd keep that first bulb.

 

[BillK]

That's going a little far.

I don't think it is If you can do it and sleep at night, so be it, I know I couldn't.

 

[plow]

Stupid question, But, did you check the Halide fluid?

 

[Fifty]

Oh good lord. I agreed to pay Home Depot's retail pricing because they agreed I could bring the item back for absolutely any reason. If it wasn't for that agreement I wouldn't buy anything from them and neither would anybody else. That is the only reason they get to charge the prices they do. They are taking advantage of me by charging the high prices, I can take advantage of them by taking them up on their offer. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Would it be different if I decided it was too high of wattage and took it back to get a different one?

Stealing? Get a ****ing grip!

It's NOT H.D. he's stiffing; it's the poor schmuck who happens to get stuck with that used bulb after it finds its way back onto the store shelf.

That is NOT how big box stores work. Returns are taken to the garbage compactor out back and destroyed. That is company policy at Home Depot. They could save probably 95% of it, but they don't.

 

[2ManyProjects]

It's NOT H.D. he's stiffing; it's the poor schmuck who happens to get stuck with that used bulb after it finds its way back onto the store shelf.

That is NOT how big box stores work. Returns are taken to the garbage compactor out back and destroyed. That is company policy at Home Depot. They could save probably 95% of it, but they don't.

I seriously doubt that, as I've seen the (often crudely) re-wrapped return items on the shelf on MANY occasions. Even if such a policy exists at the corporate level, in the field it is honored more in the breach than in the observance.

 

[ishiboo]

I seriously doubt that, as I've seen the (often crudely) re-wrapped return items on the shelf on MANY occasions. Even if such a policy exists at the corporate level, in the field it is honored more in the breach than in the observance.

It depends on the vendor/item, and the reason stated for return. A new returned bulb would go back on the shelf, if a customer said he/she wasn't satisfied, for a disposable light bulb it's likely a "destroy in field" situation.

LEDs on the other hand are probably resold.

 

[mds5951]

That is NOT how big box stores work. Returns are taken to the garbage compactor out back and destroyed. That is company policy at Home Depot. They could save probably 95% of it, but they don't.

Doesn't that make it worse then? Effectively they make no money, and have no product either... The same as stealing lol.

^^^THIS is why hd has to charge higher prices, because they have to account for personnel, a brick and mortar store, and lost/damaged/returned goods and abused policies.

If you feel morally fine doing that great---but don't try to sit there all high and mighty and act like you're in the "right"

 

[walrus]

Can't put Metal Halide bulbs in the trash in Maine, they are classified as universal Hazardous waste and have to be recycled, costs me 3.00 dollars a bulb

 

[BFBOB]

HD's return policy does sometimes surpass understanding. I bought a Milwaukee hammer drill, used it once and took it back the next day. No box, no manual. I explained there was nothing wrong with it; it was just too fast and powerful for me to handle doing what I do mostly with a corded drill- drilling big holes with hole saws. I asked if they could perhaps give me a partial credit towards a more suitable drill, figuring they could resell it as a scratch and dent. Instead, they gave me a full refund.
So, I guess they really don't care what the reason is.

 

[dslabuda]

Home Depot is high priced? I need to start shipping around.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk 4

 

[Hornman]

Judging from your photo of your light fixture, you should be shopping for new light fixtures not just bulbs.

 

[Norcal]

Home Depot is high priced? I need to start shipping around.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk 4

They are not a low priced seller/retailer. On some things they are really expensive.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Oh good lord. I agreed to pay Home Depot's retail pricing because they agreed I could bring the item back for absolutely any reason. If it wasn't for that agreement I wouldn't buy anything from them and neither would anybody else. That is the only reason they get to charge the prices they do. They are taking advantage of me by charging the high prices, I can take advantage of them by taking them up on their offer. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Would it be different if I decided it was too high of wattage and took it back to get a different one?

Stealing? Get a ****ing grip!



That is NOT how big box stores work. Returns are taken to the garbage compactor out back and destroyed. That is company policy at Home Depot. They could save probably 95% of it, but they don't.

I dont know where u heard this but its not true. All working ad sellable returns are reutrned to the shelf. The returns that arent sellable are returned to the manufacturer when possible(most of the time) for a credit or new item. Very, very few items make it in the dumpster. I have a friend who works in the shipping and receiving department as well as the night stock crew. He says its VERY rare that something will go in the dumpster. VARY RARE!!