Multiple 220V outlets on 50A breaker

[s14kev]

I've never had to mess with 220V so am much less familiar compared to 110V. I'm finally wiring up 220V for my TIG. Electrical panel is in the basement and the basement is comprised of a large 4 car garage area together with a separate sheetrock finished room which I use as workshop space. Panel is in this finished room and I have the sheetrock off of the wall with the panel. Welder uses a 50A NEMA 6-50R outlet. I have a 50A breaker wired with 6-2 NM cable to my first NEMA 6-50R outlet in the finished room. I would like to run 6-2 NM cable from this outlet to another outlet in the garage area so that I can weld in either area. I have limited space in my panel so would prefer not to have two homeruns since both outlets will not be used at the same time.

Questions are:
1. I'm unclear if NEC allows more than one 50A outlet per breaker in a residential setting.
2. 6-2 NM cable has black and white conductors. I'm marking the white conductor with red tape. What is a better way of doing this? I'd prefer not to run THHN in conduit.
3. Should I make my runs in 6-3 NM wire for future proofing? I'd prefer not to with the extra cost and bulk of 6-3 NM wire.

 

[Matt Matt]

You want to make a branch curcit from a 50a 240v? This is very special. Not usually permitted.

 

[alfredeneuman]

.
Questions are:
1. I'm unclear if NEC allows more than one 50A outlet per breaker in a residential setting.
2. 6-2 NM cable has black and white conductors. I'm marking the white conductor with red tape.
3. Should I make my runs in 6-3 NM wire for future proofing? I'd prefer not to with the extra cost and bulk of 6-3 NM wire.

There is no NEC prohibition against multiple outlets of any size. The IEC prohibits multiple 240 Volt outlets on circuits larger than 20 Amps.

The tape will work the best.

You must use #6 for the entire run if you don't want to run the circuit in conduit. Otherwise #8 Cu is acceptable in conduit. You don't need to run 6-3 if you're not using the neutral

 

[pattenp]

NEC is silent on 50A multioutlet circuits. But the International Residential Building Code does not allow multioutlet circuits to be more than 20 amps. Don't know your location, but Virginia follows the IRC.

 

[rpcraft]

IF you have some back woods wiring (we've all seen it) and have more than one per circuit be sure not to run them both at once is all I can say. Personally I would not even plug something into two of them on the same circuit just in case.

 

[s14kev]

Thanks all for the input. Both outlets would not be used at the same time however I'm still hesitant to go against the IRC. How do others handle this when they have a large workshop and want to run a welder in different areas?

 

[bczygan]

Thanks all for the input. Both outlets would not be used at the same time however I'm still hesitant to go against the IRC. How do others handle this when they have a large workshop and want to run a welder in different areas?

Small sub-panel?

Bill

 

[ard]

How do others handle this when they have a large workshop and want to run a welder in different areas?

One circuit to each location.

I also have a very heavy 100' extension that allows me to run a welder outside.

While I tend not to violate NEC, there are times when your judgement might determine it is fine for your situation. Nobody has ever had an insurance claim denied due to non-code work. Only issue is at sale. Home inspectors are generally such morons, Id be shocked if one realized this.

 

[JamesW84]

I'd second ard. You can make or buy a heavy extension cord to plug into your outlet and string it wherever you want without having to pass code.

I did a similar thing:

I don't have a 240v plug in my garage for my welder (building a shop, so don't want to permanently add one to the garage), so I bought a plug to fit my 30amp dryer outlet and ran 50' of 6-3 thru the attic to the garage. I store it in the attic; plug it in when I need it and drop the Welder plug down from the attic stairs.

This may not work for you, but it might get your brain turning.

 

[Bert_]

I have zero issues putting multiple 50A receptacles on a 50A circuit. The extra receptacles are just for convenience, not to run multiple machines at the same time. There are no safety issues with that. No reason to run multiple 50A circuits if you can only use one at a time.

 

[Matt Matt]

I’ll step back one. A stove is on a 40-50A breaker. If my in laws moved into the basement, is it ok legal to branch this circuit to a seccond stove? We are never home at the same time, sooo... it should be cool, right? In residential?

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

Apples and oranges. If you only owned one stove and you took it up and down the stairs whenever you needed it there could never be a problem. If you buy a second stove then you run into trouble. To the op, if you run your second outlet on the surface in conduit you could easily remove it when it's time to sell. It's not a production shop. It's a convenience thing. That is better than having a big cord all over the floor causing a tripping hazard.

 

[OccupantRJ]

I have my 240 outlets with two on each circuit, two 20 amp circuits with two outlets each, and a 50 amp circuit with two outlets on it. I feel absolutely comfortable from a safety standpoint with having it like this. I find it hard to run a bandsaw and a blasting cabinet at the same time, a Bridgeport and lathe at the same time, or even two welders at the same time. Common sense is not so common anymore, but when it is present it should prevail.

 

[koditten]

Same here. No issues at all, but great convenience.

 

[sberry]

You may actually be able to run 2 at the same time, depends on how big they are. 2 stoves is a no no no matter what.
My bud has 2 to 1, he removed the outlet which had heavy wire and wired 2 number 10 to it for 2 outlets.

 

[s14kev]

So how about this. The aim is to be somewhat NEC/IEC compliant for future inspection. The most important outlet for me is the longest run to the garage which will be daisy chained from the outlet in the finished room. If my outlet is in a typical metal/plastic electrical box in the finished room, could I just remove this outlet and splice the wires when we leave and put a blanking cover plate over the box. I don't necessarily like the idea of splicing #6 cable but it will be enclosed in a standard electrical box. Since this would result in just one outlet on the circuit when we leave, would this be a good option and maintain code compliance?

 

[bad_idea]

IIRC there are allowances for undersized conductors for circuits SPECIFICALLY labeled for welding machine use. Are there not also allowances for multiple outlets for convenience of use for welding machines? I will be in the same boat soon after I build the garage. Are the allowances for welding circuits for commercial/industrial settings only?

 

[bczygan]

To me, it comes down to what the goal is.

Doing it for yourself, for present use, or for future owners.

Regular 120V circuits have multiple "convenience" outlets. It is easy to overload these circuits by plugging too many things in to them.

The same would go for a 240V circuit with multiple outlets.

I would just do it.

But then I have a small shop space and plenty of panel space.



Bill

 

[pattenp]

I can only say from my personal experience that when submitting my electrical plans for my shop I had a multioutlet 240V 30A circuit shown and the Building Inspection Dept plans review inspector said no. He said outlet circuits over 20A were to be dedicated single outlet only. I commented about the NEC, welders, etc. and that's when he said for residential use they follow the Virginia Uniform Statewide Building Code which is based on the IRC. You better check with the local yokels if you are worried about following code.

 

[930dreamer]

I'm in the same situation, 50 amp plug in the shop is on the opposite end of the large overhead door. Is a large gauge extension cord ok?

 

[finn]

Wouldn’t it be just as easy to run a line to a new sub panel close to where you want the two outlets. Add two circuits, properly sized and labeled, and everything is neat, clean, and to code.

My shop has separate circuits and outlets for two welders, one near the front of the shop, and one near the rear. It was like that when I bought it, and knowing the po didn’t Mickey Mouse the wiring helped my decision to buy the building.

 

[ard]

I’ll step back one. A stove is on a 40-50A breaker. If my in laws moved into the basement, is it ok legal to branch this circuit to a seccond stove? We are never home at the same time, sooo... it should be cool, right? In residential?

Sure. But only as long as you only have ONE stove to share

So how about this. The aim is to be somewhat NEC/IEC compliant for future inspection. The most important outlet for me is the longest run to the garage which will be daisy chained from the outlet in the finished room. If my outlet is in a typical metal/plastic electrical box in the finished room, could I just remove this outlet and splice the wires when we leave and put a blanking cover plate over the box. I don't necessarily like the idea of splicing #6 cable but it will be enclosed in a standard electrical box. Since this would result in just one outlet on the circuit when we leave, would this be a good option and maintain code compliance?

Yes, IMO

 

[PoorOwner]

Does your welder really need to be 50A breaker? The welders have the 50A plug on there just because to be compatible what welding shops are outfitted with. Alot of times you can get away with 30A-40A breaker on a smaller sized wire.

I have a dedicated 50A on one end of the garage but I will also be running a 50A subpanel (off a separate breaker) to the other side.

I could run a 30A breaker off the new subpanel for a second welder receptacle. I know that my welder will run off the 30A (it doesn't even need to be as big as 10AWG wire)

 

[s14kev]

Wouldn’t it be just as easy to run a line to a new sub panel close to where you want the two outlets. Add two circuits, properly sized and labeled, and everything is neat, clean, and to code.

Yes I could do this however the "finished" room was originally a basement bedroom. The basement is ~1300 sqft with ~300sqft comprised of a finished bedroom. I wanted 1300sqft of garage space so I converted the room into shop space where I can have the lathe/mill, drill press, blast cabinet and grinders in. Obviously, most people would rather have a neat finished room so I'm reluctant to add another subpanel to the wall just for another welder outlet. I'd also rather not run cable to a subpanel somewhere else in the basement.

 

[mm08822]

As already stated by Alfred and PP, NEC has no constraints to the # permitted.

If the IRC is not applicable to your area, then it is just background noise. If it is applicable, just deal with it when you sell – just wirenut the leads at the end recept and blank off the box. I doubt anyone would every figure out there are 2 recepts on a single ckt anyway during a home inspection.

From a current-use safety perspective, if the entire circuit is wired with #6 on a 50A cb, then the devices and conductors are properly protected. If by chance, 2 “50A” loads happened to be plugged in and operated simultaneously, the cb would trip if the combined load exceeded 50A. If it didn’t exceed 50A then there is no issue. (No different than multiple 15a recepts on a 15/20a ckt.)

To be NEC code compliant, your first box needs to be sized big enough to account for the conductor count of incoming, outgoing conductors, ground wire and device. Pig-tailing would also be required as the device has no provisions for multiple conductors per pole.

 

[Matt Matt]

As already stated by Alfred and PP, NEC has no constraints to the # permitted.

If the IRC is not applicable to your area, then it is just background noise. If it is applicable, just deal with it when you sell – just wirenut the leads at the end recept and blank off the box. I doubt anyone would every figure out there are 2 recepts on a single ckt anyway during a home inspection.

From a current-use safety perspective, if the entire circuit is wired with #6 on a 50A cb, then the devices and conductors are properly protected. If by chance, 2 “50A” loads happened to be plugged in and operated simultaneously, the cb would trip if the combined load exceeded 50A. If it didn’t exceed 50A then there is no issue. (No different than multiple 15a recepts on a 15/20a ckt.)

To be NEC code compliant, your first box needs to be sized big enough to account for the conductor count of incoming, outgoing conductors, ground wire and device. Pig-tailing would also be required as the device has no provisions for multiple conductors per pole.

This is a perfect post. But this is for welder situation IMO. But if ever 455.6 with variable fixed loads can or possibly take place, what size does article 455 suggest total phase loads by??? Or Why do I have to play by these codes?

 

[sberry]

I'm in the same situation, 50 amp plug in the shop is on the opposite end of the large overhead door. Is a large gauge extension cord ok?

A smaller gage cord may work. Depending on the machine may call for a 12, some a 10 and the only ones need 8 are 250 feeders.
The small machines actually allow 14 but the breaker is limited to 30 with them and the devices, recpts are not really listed for small wire.

 

[Matt Matt]

I personally have a 50 foot extension cord for my 40A welder. It has 6-3 SOOW with a 6-50 on either end. 40 amp circuit powering.

Is it possible to plug-in to these 2=> 50 amp branch circuit’s A 5 hp air compressor and a plasma cutter? Safely? Should these be on separate circuits? Could they be on the same circuit?

 

[alfredeneuman]

But if ever 455.6 with variable fixed loads can or possibly take place, what size does article 455 suggest total phase loads by??? Or Why do I have to play by these codes?

Article 455 is Phase Converters, not Welders (630)
455.6 deals with Conductors used with Phase Converters

You are in Canada, and fortunately US Codes have no bearing on you.

 

[Matt Matt]

Article 455 is Phase Converters, not Welders (630)
455.6 deals with Conductors used with Phase Converters

You are in Canada, and fortunately US Codes have no bearing on you.

I have a place in Port Charlotte, Florida. 99% of the codes are exactly the same (worded a little bit differently) . Some of the grounding Applications are more severe in Canada due to freezing depths. A CSA/UL Will put me back about $150.

Residential is not to exceed 150 V to ground circuit on either side of the border, distributed...

I only gave this situation as a RPC could be put onto this circuit... on the second outlet (and open a whole new can of worms). Or… Now this branch circuit is available, let’s plug-in a 5 hp air compressor without rated plug.

I deal with a lot of RPCs, air compressors and VFD’s on both sides of the border. I gently just build robotic parts for industry.

I personally feel, instead of having two outlets (on the same circuit) having a good extension cord would be a better option IMO.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Why do I have to play by these codes?

It should be obvious
If you do work in the US, or produce parts for the US market, you have to follow the US rules.