Need help with a garage/workshop

[blue77]

Hi all, I was referred here when posting a question on garages over at Vintage Mustang's.

Here is the question:

I am about to put up a 'new' 2 car garage. I currently have a 2 car attached garage without enough room to do anything but park.

On that note I want a workshop where I can work on my mustang (including metal work, etc as well as storing the Mustang) and possibly park another car.

I'm thinking about using one of these http://www.pastoragesheds.com/double-wide-garages.asp as the base garage, but I need to figure out a good size, and i'm looking to you guys to help.

I also need to know what else to have in the garage.

Right now I want heat/eletric (ideas on how much greatly appreciated), I'm thinking concrete slab for a 2 post lift. I also want room for tools and work stations etc.

What does everyone recommend

Some additional information and thoughts:


They do modular or build on site (the build on site is required for anything higher than 8' walls).

They do a 'standard' 10' wall (with 14' roof to floor) if built onsite, or I can make them build it any size I need. The futher I go from their 'standards' the more it cost, but they are still 20-40% cheaper than anyone else i've talked to.

Ok so for ceiling, let's say 14' (some room left over), Insulation is key it looks like so let's say plastic and 2-3" of styrofoam under the slab, standard slab on top, R-19 rolled insulation walls and ceiling, ceiling eve vent

I was thinking about http://www.americasprideonline.com/universal-lift.shtml lift.

Knowing that in a perfect world bigger is ALWAYS better, what are some good 'dimensions' to work with? I'm thinking 24' wide ok, how deep? Or is 24' not wide enough?

I have 'underground' power, so I will have to do an underground run for this garage, that said, I can actually get another service installed pretty easily from the power company, so I could put in a 200 Amp (or 100 Amp) service pretty easily, without pulling from the house as a subpanel. Though I'm not sure if that would be needed.

What kind of heating should I think about? Is there any reason to consider airconditioning? (I'm in the Northeast, SEPA, it gets hot on some days, but I dont think it will enough of an issue to install A/C but I could be wrong).

Lighting is pretty easy to add at anypoint, but yeah I would really rather have way too much than not enough, I was thinking of 2-3 zones of overhead floresent (banked 4 tube lights and 2-6 per zone)

 

[ersatzs2]

I am about to put up a 'new' 2 car garage. I currently have a 2 car attached garage without enough room to do anything but park.
On that note I want a workshop where I can work on my mustang (including metal work, etc as well as storing the Mustang) and possibly park another car.

Welcome! Your questions seem to be typical and you'll find lengthy discussions on all these issues as you peruse the various threads. The way I started when I found this site was to rank threads by views and work my way down, reasoning that the most productive threads got the most attention over time. Not foolproof but a good start.

My opinion is you will want a minimum of 24x24 for what you describe. 12' is a good working minimum ceiling for a lift. I am really enjoying 400w metal halide low-bay lights so far, but there are lots of good discussions about high output florescents etc. On lift brand, my research led me to conclude that Rotary was the way to go. Something as important as the lift seems like the place to splurge and they are no more than 30-40% more than the cheapest alternatives.

Good luck. If you use the search function you will find long discussions of every aspect of the project.

 

[blue77]

I've tried reading through all of the different possible variations, and I'm going nuts

Let's start with foundation... I'm looking at poured concrete foundation, but I need to know how much 'stuff' needs to be in it (drains and the like). The garage will be 30'x34-40' (the range is if I go with metal verses stick, etc), the floor to ceiling height will be 14', I MIGHT put a loft in the back portion (in the 'shop' area). Right now the only things I can think of needing to pass through the foundation are drain pipes.

I'm going to have 2 in floor drains, and one 'stand off' pipe for other pumbing (shop sink and possible bathroom in the loft area).

The floor is going to be 4,000 PSI (for lift and cars), with radiant heat, moisture and thermal blocks (plasitc and foam).

What else? I'm starting to contact foundation guys and need to know what to have them quote.

 

[blue77]

Sorry for being such a pain in the backside... but...

I just got a quote for a steel building (order cancelled) 30x40 14 high, delivered to the house (drawings, siding, trim, all hardware except ancor bolts, blah blah blah) for $11,427 they say that they are sure it will sell pretty quickly no matter what, and if it does sell the same thing would run $14-15k, but I haven't done enough research to figure out (material wise) how much a stick building would be with the same size.

Anyone have any idea if $11,427 is a good price for the building (steel) with those dimensions. It will NOT include doors, windows, insulation... but they will work out a 'good deal' with me (or I can get them myself) for those pieces.

 

[mikeyr]

Seems to me that the steel building companies regularly have "cancelled order deals", a little too often for me to believe them.

Having said that, I would prefer the steel building although you live in a slightly cooler part of the country than I do (just got back from a nice sunny day motorcycle ride and actually had to unzip the leather jacket it was too warm), in your part of the country the wood building might be cheaper to heat and that may be a consideration. For me, steel over wood anytime.

I am guessing you are on the E. Coast since the place you are looking at buildings from is on the E.Coast.

 

[blue77]

Yeah I'm in the North East, a balmy 24 degrees right now (supposed to get 'warm' next week and be ~52).

Well it looks like a no go anyway, as my wife took one look at the buildings they had and said 'ewww it looks industrial'. So without adding some facia stuff (and the extra money for no real benifit), I might as well go stick anyway.

With that I called a few archetects in the area, only got in touch with one, left messages for 2 others to call me. To have a garage designed for what I want, and to match my house (and placement on my lot), would run ~$3-3.5k which sounds about right to me (cost wise).

I've been looking for plans online (the free and the ones you have to buy) it seems the size I want isn't very popular... fun fun fun

 

[RonBou]

To have a garage designed for what I want, and to match my house (and placement on my lot), would run ~$3-3.5k which sounds about right to me (cost wise).

My contractor came up with a design drawing on a plot plan that the town required me to have anyway. It was a simple drawing from my specs and cost me around $300 that he courtesied me when I gave him the go ahead to build.

 

[ersatzs2]

Yeah I'm in the North East, a balmy 24 degrees right now (supposed to get 'warm' next week and be ~52).

Where are you? Yeah its been cold in NJ this week but really can't complain about this fall, and it is supposed to be 50F again this Sun...

Well it looks like a no go anyway, as my wife took one look at the buildings they had and said 'ewww it looks industrial'.

Oh this sounds painfully familiar. Next thing I know I'm spending a fortune on cosmetics that don't contribute one iota to fixing/building stuff.

With that I called a few archetects in the area, only got in touch with one, left messages for 2 others to call me.

Definitely check out the ready made plans, there is really a lot out there once you get into it. I found some from Behm that eventually got translated by a local architect. Basically my whole project is a compromise between local zoning, construction office, historic district commission, my neighbors and spouse.

Oh and on your floor? You've gotta start ranking what you want/can afford to figure out what goes in. Options include: roughing in plumbing, radiant heat, drains (check zoning regs, this may necessitate a drywell) etc etc. I put in floor pots just because I liked the idea of some solid anchors in the floor. Others have installed lights in the floor. check out bmwpowers thread for info on the ultimate vapor barrier to use. Check out the flooring section for comments on optimal surface prep for expoxy etc.

 

[blue77]

I'm in SEPA (montgomery county PA if that helps), and yeah weather is ever so much fun

I've been looking at the predesigned plans on the net and in some books, and I can't seem to find anything wide enough and tall enough. If it IS wide enough they are dressing it for a 3 car garage (I want a VERY wide 2 car), or not tall enough (like they put on a second story).

That said I was thinking that I might just add some height on the footers and get my 14' tall ceilings that way (10' walls and then ~3 1/2 on the footers, plus all the other sills and the like) so I might be able to cheat the height issue.

All I want is a decent looking 30'x34-40' 2 car garage with 14' ceilings, you would think I could find something

Oh well I'll keep looking, and keep calling builders and archetects. I was hoping to get this done (me doing all the 'little stuff' like wiring, insulation, pumbing etc; contactor doing framing and concrete) in the $25-30/ sqft range, but that isn't looking good Looking closer to $45/sqft

 

[PAToyota]

Just west of Philly? I'm an architect up in Harrisburg...

 

[blue77]

Just west of Philly? I'm an architect up in Harrisburg...

See you should never have said that

What do YOU think it should cost to have a garage designed to match the 'look/feel' of my house with those dimensions?

My house is actually in Lower Pottsgrove Township (not that you know where that is ) in Montgomery county PA (Closest 'town' is pottstown, but i'm about 2/3rds the way from Philly to Reading).

Also what kind of work does you/your firm, do? If you do this kind of work, I would be interested in finding out MUCH more about your fees and time frame

Thanks!!

 

[PAToyota]

We do a pretty eclectic mix of things. Quite a bit of school work, but we also have a couple people doing historic preservation and there have been a mix of municipal, commercial, multi-family housing, and residential projects as well. Ballpark generic estimate for architectural fees usually runs 5~7% of construction cost - then as low as 3% if you just need basic drawings and up substantially from that for extensive project management situations where you are doing detailed remodeling or other special circumstances.

 

[blue77]

Thanks for the information

I dont think this would qualify as special in any strech (but then maybe it is) and I would be doing my own work/general contracting (depending on what parts we were talking about) so it would be drawings and not much else.

That said, until you have a design how do you estimate construction cost?

 

[PAToyota]

That is the big question, isn't it? People are always asking for square footage costs and such. Well, until you have at least some idea of size, materials, and level of detail there just isn't any way to begin to give an estimate. Even with a full set of plans, estimating can really be an art - how busy are the contractors, what are material costs, is time of year of construction going to affect labor rates and additional charges...

 

[Will67]

I am in the process of building my first garage, and step one for me was to see what the county/city would allow. One major bummer I found was that a detached garage (which I wanted originaly) where I live could only be 50% the sq/ft of my house. My house is 1207 sq/ft, so detached garage could be 603.5 sq/ft...too small. So now its gonna be a attached garage.

Second thing I did was get the building drawn up, so I could submit my "plans" to the County. I first cold called a bunch of architects. Most were to busy to deal with a garage that would be 24'x40'. I found one who would do it for a flat fee of $8K. This included the plot and elevations, plumbing, electrical, structual engineering, title 24 (energy). I thought that was too high, so I kept looking. I finaly found a guy who does drafting and works at an architectual firm. He does small stuff like my garage on the side. He charged me $2.5K for the same thing. I am waiting now for my county to approve my plans or ask for changes/revisions. So I hope to post some pictures of my build in ?February 2007?

 

[blue77]

LOL, yeah it seems that the price of the 'drawings' are more or less a function of the cost of the garage, and that the cost of the garage is a function of the drawings, contractor, materials, and time. Hard to get an estimate of even the design of the garage before the garage design is done (oh no the space-time rift is approaching).

I just talked to a designer (not can't stamp) who uses civil engineers (who can stamp) for some work, his 'guestiamte' was $3250 for the design. (~50 hours of his time). At least it looks like he had some basis for his estimate. But even he stressed he works on an hourly rate, but would put together a proposial for his work prior to that.

That might be the way I go.

I told the steel company that my wife didn't like the look of steel, and they basically told me I was whipped (um is that REALLY the best sales pitch?), they didn't offer to work with me on the look of the building or matching it to my house (a better sales pitch IMHO), but hey they will be there if I decide to go steel anyway (not like they will turn down my business, that said; I'm not going out of MY way to give them any now).

The designer said I need to call the township, because the newer buildings (my house is only ~2 years old) tend to have VERY strict zoning restrictions, and he is more worried about a township 'gotcha' then the design or construction (gotta love local government )

 

[PAToyota]

Why is zoning and codes your responsibility to research? Considering that he is designing to them, it is his responsibility to research them to make sure that his design complies... If there turns out to be a compliance issue and you researched the codes for him, now you are in the middle and he can say that he didn't know about it because you didn't tell him. I'd be careful about getting into that situation.

As for cost of design - I wasn't attempting to be evasive, just that typically a scope of work has to be discussed before an estimate can be given. You mentioned wanting it to fit in with the house - so what does the house look like? That will determine the level of detailing and design involved. Do you need everything detailed so that you can see how each and every thing gets built? Or do you just need basic plans for the township and you can work out the details? These are the sort of questions that affect the cost so much.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not getting defensive or giving you grief - just attempting to explain.

 

[thefairlaneman]

forsed hot air is the safest, I use a small vented floor mounted oil heater with an attached 5 gallon tank..the 5 gallons will last me 2 days in colder weather but only one day if its in the 20s or below.

 

[blue77]

PAToyota, I wasn't taking offense far from it

You are giving me the same kind of answers I'm getting else where. Yeah I guess it should be his issue to figure out the codes, but he is also one of the few designers that actually gave me the time of day

My house is a white colonial with black shutters, pretty simple; but it certainly doesn't look like a pole barn (my wife's issue), the design shouldn't be a big deal; but it will be custom (simply because the size I want doesn't seem to have a 'standard design').

The drawings can be as simple as required to build it (I can follow some pretty simple drawings, and I can have contractors bid to pretty simple drawings), again that shouldn't be TOO much of a cost driver.

thefairlaneman, Forced air heat is an option, though frankly on the bottom of my list right now. I would go radiated heat before forced air. IF I added aircondtioning then I would use forced air for both, otherwise not really intersted in ducting.

 

[PAToyota]

Just didn't want to be coming across wrong...

Truthfully, if I were you I'd start here: http://sketchup.google.com/

The free, Google version of SketchUp. I use the pro version, but it is pretty easy to learn and you can have some fun "building" your garage on the computer. Take some measurements of your house so that you can get things in proportion and then have at it. Get something the size, shape, and details that you think you want to start at. You can download cars, tools, windows, whatever from the SketchUp "warehouse" and put them in your model.

Once you figure out what it is that you're looking for, approach the designer or an architect with it and see how much he'd charge to "make it work" from there - truss sizes, codes, etc.

 

[blue77]

Great software thanks!!

At work I use Pro-E and AutoCAD (well and some other tools like matlab and the like) and Unless you know what you want, they are hard to design with (though they are PERFECT for detail design, I can render and 'blow apart' assemblies)

 

[wrigh003]

LOL @

I told the steel company that my wife didn't like the look of steel, and they basically told me I was whipped ...

PAToyota- so most architects will be cool with working off a sketchup plan as an idea of what we're looking for? I guess I figured that might be akin to taking your car in to the mechanic and saying "I think the problem is _________" instead of just keeping quiet on it and letting them diagnose the issue? I've always had better luck with the latter, even if my diagnosis is usually right, people's attitude often seems to be better when you're not "trying to tell them how to do their job."

Maybe I have just run across a bunch of cranky mechanics in my time. Who knows...

Thanks for the link on sketchup, too- that will help a lot to get a rough idea of what the plan is down in my basement-finishing garage project, as well as help me show wife what I am planning on doing.

 

[PAToyota]

You know what they say about being able to divide everything into two categories...

Well, my experience is that the two categories of architects are the ones that think they know the best of anyone and the ones that feel that they are there to achieve the best possible solution for you. I'd like to think I'm in the second category.

Basically, I want input. What styles do you like? Colors? How are you going to be using the space? Show me pictures of the jukebox you want in the corner, the old metal sign collection you have, what sort of space you envision it to be when you are finished. Then I start asking questions. Did you think about doing _____? Here is something that I saw that seems like what you're talking about? That sort of thing. My job is to use my expertise to make the space work for you.

So a SketchUp model that showed the layout of what a client wanted with the tools, vehicles, and such that he is trying to fit in and the basic style that he is looking for would be an excellent starting point for me.

The other year friends were having an open house. They had just had an interior decorator "redesign" their first floor - with no input from them! The decorator picked colors, fabrics, styles of furniture based entirely on what they thought would be the way to do the room. I smiled politely as they showed it all to me, but I was totally amazed at the whole idea. I mean, I want my home (and my shop) to represent who I am - not what some prissy designer tells me "everybody" is doing... All these decorator shows on TV where the people leave and the decorators "work their magic" and then the people come back fall into the same category.

Back to your analogy of the mechanic - it is more like saying what the symptoms are when you take it in. Would you take the car in, drop it off, and not say anything about what was wrong? You go back in and find that they rebuilt the transmission when you just wanted the burnt out headlights replaced?

I'm still going to do my "mechanic-ing" with the design - figure out the nuts and bolts and all the details. But we'll arrive at something that you are happy with a heck of a lot sooner and easier and both of us will enjoy the process.

 

[SCOOTER]

Ok, I would check the local code to see if your dream shop can be built in your town...Then I would keep looking to see if a "off the shelf plan " will fit your needs, some of the plan slingers offer modifications for a small fee...if this is not an option then find a guy like PA who is gonna look out for you and not just his pocket....AND last but not least...know up front that it is gonna cost more than you think so be ready..


I didn't do the metal building cause this thing is like 15' off the back of my house and it would have looked like doo doo if it was....



What I'm doing as stated before is building the shop ....Then I will redo the house to match.....

 

[blue77]

Yeah I talked to my township inspector; we basically follow the 'R1' codes. Setback is 20' rear and side, coverage is 15% total, height is 15' (for detached buildings) front of the garage can't be past the 'rear' of the house line. All of these can be changed with a 'zoning review' as long as there is a reason beyond 'because I want it' (such as geography, or irregular lot shape, etc). Basically a $500 charge anytime you want to go over it again (you can review a LOT of things at once, but each 'time' you do it, it is $500).

I'm trying to keep an open mind about cost, but right now I simply have no clue how much it will be

I've also been looking at building plans and right now I haven't found any that match what I want, so I will keep looking while also getting estimates for design

 

[SCOOTER]

Ouch.. on the height and the set backs, My town was 7' and 7' from property lines (Walls) and min 5' at the eaves....my coverage was 10% max, that's why it is two story..my height is 30' max from average grade.....well good luck and keep us posted...

 

[blue77]

Actually I think the setbacks are ok, it is the height that is going to hurt.


Disregard everything in green, I'm just an idiot I was thinking wheel base = width (because of a messed up picture on Chevy's website, stupid Chevy website )

ACK.. someone tell me i'm doing something wrong!!

I'm looking at 2 post lifts to 'totally' decide one way or the other, so I can build around it a bit, and i'm getting 'drive through' dimensions of 90-95" (ish).

Looking at Chevy's website the Wheelbase on the Tahoe I have is 116", it seems odd that NO 10,000 LBS 2 post lift can handle a Tahoe, doesn't it?

Now I have to go home and check my manuals to find out the wheel base of my mustang ('73 Mach 1), that guy is wide is as well (ok not tahoe wide) but i'm wondering if I have drive through on it even...

I MUST be doing something wrong, help obi-won kenobi

 

[PAToyota]

Best to not mess with the variances - most times you end up paying the money and you're back to doing what the zoning said in the first place.

On the height limitation - if the garage is close enough to the house consider a breezeway of some sort. Then it isn't "detached" anymore...

 

[blue77]

You know it will be close enough to consider a breezeway, but it will be at the corner of the house, so it wouldn't actually be from a door to a door, it would simply be a roof that touched the two buildings.

 

[PAToyota]

Remember that if they are attached you also lose the restriction that it must be set back behind the rear of the house. So you could pull it slightly forward and have it door to door (would have to actually see the corner of the house that you are touching) or possibly something that goes across the front of the garage as an overhang.

 

[SWA Guy]

I purchased a set of plans from www.cadnw.com last year. I spoke to the owner and he's willing to modify a stock set of plans to suit your needs. Seemed very helpful.

 

[blue77]

Thanks for the information all!!

I went out and 'marked off' the size for my wife, she wasn't happy with how large I wanted it

Gosh marriage is fun (10 years later )

 

[cdrewferd]

Good luck with your build. I hope that the wife understands that if you build it smaller now, you'll just want another one later.

 

[blue77]

Yeah I told her that, and she said good luck with that

We'll work it out, it is a while before spring anyway