Need quick Carpenter question please?

[Swampy]

I am afraid I already know the answer, but need a carpenters opinion real quick... I am having my shop framed as we speak and heres the deal:

J-bolts sticking out of the concrete stem walls use a 3"x3" square washer that gets tightened to hold down the sill plate right...then the wall is built on top. Problem is they did not notch the bottom of the wall plate and is hung up about 1/4" or the thickness of the washer.

I hope that makes sense, heres another explanation: The perimeter walls are built on the concret stem wall and only the pt 2x6 is bolted down. The wall was built on top of the pt but is gapped by the heavy square washer and not able to sit down flush. The top 2x6 or bottom wall plate is sitting on top of this washer. Any advice?

Thanks

 

[sammm]

So you're framing using a double bottom plate? I thought a single bottom plate (bottom of the framed wall) was standard.

 

[Cryptic1911]

When mine was done, they only used one 2x6 on the bottom, not two.. They should have just put the square washer / nut on the top of the 2nd board.. Well, that's how I would have done it, anyways.

 

[Swampy]

The pt sill is bolted to the stem wall. The walls were built on the floor and stood up. There are only 2 horizontal 2x6's: one pressure treated, and the other standard doug fir. When the walls were stood up they were not notched to clearance the heavy washer and now the walls are gapped 1/4" everywhere there is a j-bolt.

I am not a carpenter, but I think the j-bolts are supposed to be long enough to bolt through both 2x6's. Sound right?

 

[Keep]

I think pics would help out a bunch here.

 

[sammm]

I think you want the bottom plate bolted to the stem wall using those J-bolts. Sounds like you're framing a wall with its own bottom plate to set on top of the the bolted one.

How are you planning to fasten the 'second' plate to that PT plate?

 

[Swampy]

It has been half a@@ nailed. I hired the framing done, and am afraid there is a huge mistake here.

 

[Cuda]

I agree. If they are going to use two bottom plates the j nut needs to extend through both plates. I've only ever seen one bottom plate used before.

 

[keh1959]

Are you saying the 3"x3" washer that is on the J-bolt ( and set in the foundation ) is KEEPING the PT 2"x6" from sitting flush on the concrete? If so, now I understand what you did not want to hear -- obviously that PT will need to be notched somehow in order to sit flush. Pics would definitely clarify.

 

[Swampy]

I agree too; the j-bolts should be bolting both plates down...but they are not. Now the walls are built and even some beams set- What to do now?

 

[keh1959]

Now I understand -- yes, I would say that doug fir needs to be out of the picture all together. I know -- Ugh!

 

[Swampy]

keh1959- We are getting close! I know tough without pics but just picture two 2x6 with a 1/4" washer in between- one 2x6 is bolted to the stem wall and the other is the bottom plate for the wall. The heavy washer is keeping the doug fir from sitting flush on top of the pt. The pt was bolted first...then the wall stood up and nailed.

 

[sammm]

Is the second plate fastened down to anything yet? If not, knock it off the upright studs, unbolt the PT plate(s) and re-fasten to the upright studs.

 

[Falcon67]

The only way I've seen it done is to mate the plate to the stem wall by drilling the holes for the j-bolts and then marking the stud locations. The plate is then pulled off the wall, the wall built using that bottom plate, then the wall is stood up on the stem and bolted down. Not sure why you'd want to double plate the bottom.

 

[keh1959]

I think there are a few ways to solve the problem but ALL of them require those walls to come off. Is there ANY of the j-bolt sticking thru the doug fir plate? Still not real sure why they went the two plate method. I would expect building codes still want ~1" of j-bolt sticking above bottom plate. I think THAT will be the major show stopper.

 

[Swampy]

Any chance of it being OK and that the weight of the building will settle and close the gap...embedding the washer into the wall plate?

 

[blue dog]

I am confused here, the way it should be done, at least in california where i am, is to put the treated 2x6 plate of the wall on top of the stem wall, the anchor bolts come threw the plate and the washer and nut go on top of that. Having the washer under the plate does nothing. Are you saying there is a second plate on top of the treated plate, then the anchor bolt should go threw both plates and then the washer and nut. did they not frame the wall on the ground and stand it up, sliding the hole in the plate over the bolts? To your question regarding the 1/4 gap between , no that should not be there, they should redo that., Im sure that is what your building inspector is going to say.
What state are you in?

 

[blue dog]

Post up some pics so we can get a better idea of what you are up against. Hope it works out.

 

[keh1959]

Swampy, the BEST advice I would give you right now is if they are STILL framing this garage, tell them to STOP -- NOW! Is this an entire house or just garage? Will you need framing inspection where you are? The fact that you said they were already setting beams tells me all the walls are up -- incorrectly. Have them take lunch...

 

[Swampy]

]The second plate was at my request before concrete was even poured; my thinking being that it is so much nicer to nail trim, sheetrock, and siding with a double bottom plate. Yes this is a home/shop/barn. My previous shop was built with a double plate also and sure made it nice to finish. New shop similar to this building.

 

[blue dog]

The second plate was at my request before concrete was even poured; my thinking being that it is so much nicer to nail trim, sheetrock, and siding with a double bottom plate. Yes this is a home/shop/barn. My previous shop was built with a double plate also and sure made it nice to finish.

Are you acting as owner builder?, Do you have a contract with the framer?
Do not give out any progress payments, until this issue is resolved? Just so you know,i am a licensed building general contractor in the state of california, and have been for 20 years. Stop all progress at this point, the framing contractor is responsible to build according to code. If you have beams or trusses set all ready this can be a nightmare.
Last question, are the anchor bolts sticking out of the concrete stem wall long enough to put a washer and nut on the top of the second plate? When the washer and nut are installed, you should have a minimum of 1/2 of thread showing after the washer and nut, by code, at least here in Los angeles. But we have stricter building codes due to earthquake engineering.
Keep us informed, I hate to hear about owners having a problem with bad subs.

 

[Swampy]

Thanks Blue Dog- No, whoever set the j-bolts set them for a single sill plate...there is only enough thread to bolt one sill. This would be fine and then just nail the next to the pt sill except all they did was drill hole for the nut and thread with no consideration for the 1/4" washer. Ideally longer bolts should have been used. My thought was that it would have been ok had they routered or even used a skill saw set shallow to relief wherever there is a j-bolt. I know it is only 1/4" but it compromises a rock solid foundation.

????????

 

[keh1959]

This does sound "nightmarish" at this point, I hate to say. I'm not under the impression the J-bolts are through the 2nd plate and therein is what will make it a REAL nightmare. Swampy -- does one person on site not have a cell phone with a camera. ONE photo would move this conversation from speculation to solution very quickly.

 

[blue dog]

Thanks Blue Dog- No, whoever set the j-bolts set them for a single sill plate...there is only enough thread to bolt one sill. This would be fine and then just nail the next to the pt sill except all they did was drill hole for the nut and thread with no consideration for the 1/4" washer. Ideally longer bolts should have been used. My thought was that it would have been ok had they routered or even used a skill saw set shallow to relief wherever there is a j-bolt. I know it is only 1/4" but it compromises a rock solid foundation.

????????

It does not work that way, now you have a treated plate that is bolted correctly to the stem wall, and then your actual wall structure is just nailed to the treated plate. This will not pass your inspection.
If you pm me your number i will in private give you my best advice in private as to the best solution for you to deal with this situation.

 

[blue dog]

If you do not have beams or trusses set, possibly you can jack up the walls far enough to remove nuts and washer's, Then you can drill new holes according to an engineer's spec's and epoxy all thread in threw both plates and use washers and nuts properly. This will take a bit of work but will get the job done. You in no way should have to pay for any of there mistake.

 

[Swampy]

Thanks to everybody for all the help...what a great resource for help! I called the county inspection office and they are closed Fridays...I guess I will continue to do my research and have some decisions to make come Monday morning! Might have to stop by the liquor store...I think I need a stiff drink or two!!!

 

[rstaichi]

So they put on a teated plate then pre made the walls and stood them up on the plate?
So how did they have the wall level if its hanging up on bolts/plates every few feet?
Sounds like the framers are clueless to me.

 

[John McA]

I look around for stuff like this and, I always wonder - what's next?

Another way to link the two plates together to the foundation: use the original j-bolt is to utilize a coupler nut, rod and, sleeve - the coupler extends your j-bolt after you add the threaded rod (or you can use a bolt with a plate or, big washer) and a suitable size pipe sleeve, which transfers/compresses the upper plate - drawings might help here, for this detail - a competent engineer might too, for sizing the components. The folks at Simpson or Union may have workable solution too - they are clever devils..

So, move the 3x3 plate (enlarge its hole to slip over the coupler nut) to the top of the 'sandwich' and utilize an extension solution for clamping the whole assembly down. Run this detail by your inspector - maybe you won't have to pull everything apart and epoxy.. or, combine both solutions - nothing wrong with exceeding the minimum code requirements. Have your builder reflect this in the record docs.

In California exceeding the minimum code can cause a bit of trouble but, that's story for another time...

It's Friday so consider stepping back a bit, to think it all over. Have a good weekend..

Good luck,
John McA

 

[walrus]

I agree too; the j-bolts should be bolting both plates down...but they are not. Now the walls are built and even some beams set- What to do now?

Either that or the doug fir should have been relived to allow it sit down completely on the PT plate. Thats the way mine was done, the PT was bolted down, the wall was built on the slab with holes cut in the bottom plate to allow for the stud and nut so the bottom plate sits flush on the PT.

 

[rockchucker]

It does not work that way, now you have a treated plate that is bolted correctly to the stem wall, and then your actual wall structure is just nailed to the treated plate. This will not pas your inspection.
If you pm me your number i will in private give you my best advice in private as to the best solution for you to deal with this situation.

1 billion % agreed.


The only way I know of fixing this is to Drill 5/8 holes through the 2 Bottom Plates then RotoHammer into the Concrete at least 2 1/2" I think. It says on the box when you purchase them. You can get them at Home Depot or wherever. I use them to fix Framers screw-ups and to Ledger into Concrete for Decks, Shed Roofs etc. They work FANTASTIC!!! They are up to code in Washington State. I am sure they can fix the screw up.


Here...


http://www.itwredhead.com/trubolt.asp


It sounds as if the Framers don't know what the hell they are doing though. That is not acceptable with the washers between the Plates. When the walls are built and Trusses set the wall will sag between the Washers and you will see it in the Roof Line of the Trusses. When whole purpose of the J-Bolts is to hold VERY SECURE the Bottom Plate of the Wall. When another Plate is set on top of it just Nailed to the Bottom Bottom Plate The J-Bolts are not doing their job at all.


I would see if you can't get another Contractor out there just to give a once over on the Framing of the building. Offer him a beer and a $50 bucks to drive out fro his time if you don't know anyone. Someone who KNOWS what they are doing would be well worth the extra 50 bucks.

Just my .o2

 

[6768rogues]

If you are in a high wind area, you need to have the two plates adequately fastened together. I would not accept what you described, because over time the top plate will sag to meet the bottom plate where no washers are present.

 

[tcianci]

Welcome to rookie/alarmist city.
Lets start a poll: how many of you who have commented expressing their alarm and engineering expertise are actually builder/contractors and/or licensed construction supervisors?
The sill plate is a 2x6 pt held to the concrete by j bolts. The frame wall is then drilled with clearance holes and the bottom plate of the frame wall is dropped over the exposed stub of the j bolt and the nut and washer. The bottom plate of the frame wall is then nailed into the PT sill. And the sheathing of the frame wall is nailed into the PT sill for the entire length of the wall resulting in MUCH more uplift resistance than you could accomplish with a few bolts through both pieces of wood. If you're worried about the spaces caused by the washers...put a building on top of that sill and see what happens.

What the OP has describes is pretty typical framing practice. The reaction that the OP had was to get all upset about something he didn't quite understand and then he comes here and all hell breaks loose over nothing.

I would strongly advise the OP to consult the local building official. Of course he may say that I'm the one full of s--t here but up here in MA we have been building just as the OP described for decades. There are always new seismic and wind load regulations coming into play, most of which are sponsored by insurance companies to minimize their exposure in the event of a disaster. I'm not saying that stronger buildings are not a good idea, it's just that the insurance companies want to be able to look at your structure in the event of a loss and tell you why they can't cover the loss.

If the local building official is not happy with the attachment detail (which I doubt) there are metal ties that can be added that will make him happy or you could do as others have said and open up the bottom plate of the wall and use rod couplers to get the allthread above the bottom plate.

Now a short rant... There is a prevailing attitude on this site that unless you do a job yourself (even the tasks for which you have absolutely qualifications or prior experience), you are immediately subjected to the wrath of unscrupulous, equally unqualified professional contractors who got out of bed this morning with no other thought in mind outside of how they're going to screw you. So, you do what you have to do... **** heads with the contractor until the relationship and ultimately the project winds up in the toilet. Lo and behold, another "I got stiffed by a jackass contractor story" to post on GJ
Rant over.

 

[walrus]

Welcome to rookie/alarmist city.
Lets start a poll: how many of you who have commented expressing their alarm and engineering expertise are actually builder/contractors and/or licensed construction supervisors?
The sill plate is a 2x6 pt held to the concrete by j bolts. The frame wall is then drilled with clearance holes and the bottom plate of the frame wall is dropped over the exposed stub of the j bolt and the nut and washer. The bottom plate of the frame wall is then nailed into the PT sill. And the sheathing of the frame wall is nailed into the PT sill for the entire length of the wall resulting in MUCH more uplift resistance than you could accomplish with a few bolts through both pieces of wood. If you're worried about the spaces caused by the washers...put a building on top of that sill and see what happens.

What the OP has describes is pretty typical framing practice. The reaction that the OP had was to get all upset about something he didn't quite understand and then he comes here and all hell breaks loose over nothing.

I would strongly advise the OP to consult the local building official. Of course he may say that I'm the one full of s--t here but up here in MA we have been building just as the OP described for decades. There are always new seismic and wind load regulations coming into play, most of which are sponsored by insurance companies to minimize their exposure in the event of a disaster. I'm not saying that stronger buildings are not a good idea, it's just that the insurance companies want to be able to look at your structure in the event of a loss and tell you why they can't cover the loss.

If the local building official is not happy with the attachment detail (which I doubt) there are metal ties that can be added that will make him happy or you could do as others have said and open up the bottom plate of the wall and use rod couplers to get the allthread above the bottom plate.

Now a short rant... There is a prevailing attitude on this site that unless you do a job yourself (even the tasks for which you have absolutely qualifications or prior experience), you are immediately subjected to the wrath of unscrupulous, equally unqualified professional contractors who got out of bed this morning with no other thought in mind outside of how they're going to screw you. So, you do what you have to do... **** heads with the contractor until the relationship and ultimately the project winds up in the toilet. Lo and behold, another "I got stiffed by a jackass contractor story" to post on GJ
Rant over.

Tell us how you really feel

 

[rcayot]

Basically agree ^^^ about significant of 1/4" of washer.

Could drill new holes and put in hold down bolts with epoxy through the two plates if necessary. For 140mph wind load code in Florida, every other stud would have to be strapped down to the bottom plate, and a strap over the two top plates.

Roger

 

[rcayot]

Basically agree ^^^ about significant of 1/4" of washer.

Could drill new holes and put in hold down bolts with epoxy through the two plates if necessary. For 140mph wind load code in Florida, every other stud would have to be strapped down to the bottom plate, and a strap over the two top plates.

Roger

 

[blue dog]

Tell us how you really feel

Here we have a guy that was looking for help and you [ mr tcianci ]thought it would be a good idea to come in here and post up your rant, are you kidding me, you sir not only have a improperly built garage, but you are a grade A number one dill hole. From the guy that is a general contractor/developer/builder of 20 years.
Now go in your garage in your cheetah print speedo that you love so much and stair at the improperly installed sill plates that you think are installed correctly. Again, i called you a dill hole, and i am pretty sure that the people reading this post agree with me, at least most of them.

Good luck Chris, i hope i was of help to you when we talked.
what ever you do, don't have tcianci help you out,

 

[kwb]

The details on both my shop and house addition, my brothers shop all show detail exactly as the OP described.

Nailing schedule has nails going into both the PT and Fir Bottom plate to prevent uplift along with some 3' straps embedded into concrete in a few locations along side doors that need a bazilion nails that has to turn framing behind it to toothpicks.

The gap is non issue and will settle out.

 

[TMorrow]

Have the walls been sheathed yet?

If it were me I'd cut out the upper plate over each offending washer. This will allow the walls to come down that quarter inch where needed. Anyway it's the sheathing that holds the wall together not the nails in the end of each stud. Just make sure they nail the pt plate as the nailing schedule requires and it should be fine. Just me 2 cents.

 

[kwb]

If you are really that bent about this gap that is a non-issue the easy and clean way to relieve the wall on top of washers would be to go get ~4" hole saw leave the center out and drill over the top of each J-bolt.

 

[slghmmr88]

If I may interject without getting banned, standard practice of sill plate attachment varies with different localities and regions of the country and without knowing the location it is hard to judge what would be an acceptable solution.
Also not wanting to hijack but am just inquiring as to how the sill/bottom plates are attached to the wall studs in various areas of the country.