Need quick Carpenter question please?

[tcianci]

If you are really that bent about this gap that is a non-issue the easy and clean way to relieve the wall on top of washers would be to go get ~4" hole saw leave the center out and drill over the top of each J-bolt.

Although myself and several other posters didn't think the washers were going to amount to much of an issue, the hole saw is a truly elegant (functionally and aesthetically) solution to your concerns over the washer gap.
Starting a hole saw without the pilot drill is an easy task if you make a scrap piece of wood into a template...put the saw through the template piece with the pilot drill in place and then position the template over the desired location and start the saw into the work without the pilot drill in the arbor. The saw will "pilot" on its outside diameter in the template and put the hole right where you need it.

Then again, you may not want to take any advice from such a "dill hole" as myself.

 

[blue dog]

Apparently i offended TCIANCI, and i would like to take this time to publicly apologize to him. I am sorry if i offended you, i just think that your rant was not in good taste in a thread where a guy who is not construction experienced is seeking help. Building can be very stressful for people that have not done it.
Sorry again, if you are in my neighborhood, i will take you for a beer or two on me.

 

[kwb]

I seem to recall reading double plates are required top and bottom here in King County, WA.

If not required, they were on drawings of everything I have done/worked on that had a wall directly on top of stemwall (as opposed to a framed floor sitting on top of PT sill).

 

[Swampy]

Come on guys- lets not turn on eachother, we are all here to help one another right? Of coarse there are always many different ideas and solutions and that is what makes this forum so valuable. I am not a framer myself so when something seemed questionable to me I looked for some advice. My first move will be to contact the inspector and find out what is required come monday morning...and move on from there.

KWB- Using a hole saw is a brilliant way to solve the problem and then epoxy bolts from there....if necessary.

Again, I am not a builder, so if this is an acceptable method then it is what it is. Seems like a mistake to me, but rough framing is sloppy to me anyway. I am more of a micrometer and calipers kind of guy due to my mechanical background.

Anyway- thanks to everybody for taking the time to lend advice, I really appreciate the feedback.

 

[walrus]

C
KWB- Using a hole saw is a brilliant way to solve the problem and then epoxy bolts from there....if necessary.
.

Once you put the sheathing on and nail into both plates, I don't see why one would need more anchor bolts.

 

[Brad1234]

As to the original question I would wonder about the quality of work from anyone that would frame your walls with gaps like that. The bottom sill plate should be bolted down. If you have a double plates the bolts need to be long enough to bolt it also or have clearence in the second one to clear the bolts so that there are no gaps. The second one can be nailed to the first making it basically a part of the wall framing. Having the gaps is just lazy shoddy work & I personally would have a talk with the framers with the concern being how to fix this as well as what else will they do wrong on the rest of the framing.

 

[blue dog]

If properly engineered, when done, the entire assembly needs to be one unit, meaning the bottom plate of the wall assembly that gets stood up, needs to have anchor bolts holding it. The anchor bolts that were installed needed to stick up 4” above the concrete to bite the bottom plate of the wall assembly since there are two plates being used. By only having anchor bolts holding the treated plate, then nailing the wall assembly to that does not form a proper connection. When done this way, you only have a row of nails from the shear panel in to the treated plate and some 16D’s nailing the two plates together. Shear does not work this way. A strong enough force can let the wall assembly walk off the treated plate with out anchor bolts. Shear works in the horizontal and vertical and must be all tied together forming one unit or assembly. Maybe in some states it is fine, but Chris stated he is in a high wind area, upwards of 1oo mph gusts, and I will be surprised if the inspector says its no problem. I can only speak from my experience and say that would never pass a framing inspection in the state of California. As far as the framing contractor doing something that left ¼ gaps at every bolt and washer is just down right poor workmanship. I can tell you that if this guy was doing a job for me, and it was done this way, he not only would have lost the job, I would have a new framer come fix the issue and deduct what ever that cost out of what I owed the original framing contractor. All in all it is nothing that can not be dealt with in a couple of days of work and then progress can continue so Chris can have the shop/garage that he has been dreaming of. I hope my explanation of a proper type 5 connection made since to you guys.

 

[timewarp]

Maybe in California you have to have the anchor bolts through both plates, in This part of Washington state it's common practice to bolt the pressure treated plate down and then drill the bottom of the upper plate for the nuts and bolts to sit up into, yes in a perfect world they would have relieved the upper plate for the square washers, but if they don't it's not the end of the world, I agree with tcianci that you guys are making a big thing out of nothing, this is standard practice in many areas, just because it's not in yours doesn't mean it won't work.

Swampy,
Did you discuss this with your framer, if you are the general and he's working for you what does he say about it, he should be able to explain to you how it needs to be. Also here's something you could do this weekend, take a drive through some new developements in your area and see houses under construction and see if this is the way they are being done in your area.
I agree with you that rough framing isn't micrometer and caliper work but it shouldn't be sloppy, if everything else is correct the 1/4" gaps around the washers won't make a bit of difference.(actually if the washers are 1/4" thick they should be compressed into the plate below a little and a little into the upper plate so there is probably only 1/8"of gap or so, you could beat on the upper plate around each square washer with a sledge hammer and get the plate to indent on the washer and get most of the gap to go away if it really is bothering you)

 

[kwb]

If properly engineered, when done, the entire assembly needs to be one unit, meaning the bottom plate of the wall assembly that gets stood up, needs to have anchor bolts holding it. The anchor bolts that were installed needed to stick up 4” above the concrete to bite the bottom plate of the wall assembly since there are two plates being used. By only having anchor bolts holding the treated plate, then nailing the wall assembly to that does not form a proper connection. When done this way, you only have a row of nails from the shear panel in to the treated plate and some 16D’s nailing the two plates together. Shear does not work this way. A strong enough force can let the wall assembly walk off the treated plate with out anchor bolts. Shear works in the horizontal and vertical and must be all tied together forming one unit or assembly. Maybe in some states it is fine, but Chris stated he is in a high wind area, upwards of 1oo mph gusts, and I will be surprised if the inspector says its no problem. I can only speak from my experience and say that would never pass a framing inspection in the state of California. As far as the framing contractor doing something that left ¼ gaps at every bolt and washer is just down right poor workmanship.....

Even if the bolt goes through both plates your loads are only going to hold the second plate to the PT plate. Uplift is restrained by sheeting being nailed into the PT plate that is anchored. The uplift forces would lift the studs from the plate and is why the nailing schedule has you nailing into both plates.

The right answer is - it depends on what your inspector wants to see.

 

[pattenp]

Around here (central Virginia) when my detached garage was built the plate was bolted to the block wall and then the framed wall was nailed to the plate.

 

[garagebug]

There is nothing at all wrong with having a single treated plated bolted to the foundation and another doug fir on top of it. When the sheathing goes on and is nailed to the wall and then along the bottom plate I sorta doubt the wall is going to uplift. Not notching the second plate for the washers was a hack, however it's not the end of the world. Have them shim between the two plates every 8" or so, and if there are any bearing points make sure they are shimmed also. Don't freak out about this, it's not that big of a deal.

 

[garagebug]

One more thing, make sure that the nails that they use to nail the sheathing and the plate to the treated shoe are ACQ approved, if they use plain commons they will turn to rust in no time.

 

[walrus]

Any news from the Code Enforcement officer?

 

[walrus]

Any news from the Code Enforcement officer?

I hate when a thread ends without a conclusion

 

[kbs2244]

I think pattenp may have the answer in his PIC.

Is he putting a 2 x 4 wall on a 2 x 6 sill plate?

If the treated lower plate is wider than the bottom plate on the wall I can see bolting it down and then nailing the wall to it.

(Although I would like to see the whole wall bolted. At this point I would lag screw instead of just nailing.)

 

[blue dog]

Any one know the outcome of this situation.
i spoke to my engineer this week about this situation, he recommended drilling and epoxy all thread and be done with it, and also said you could teco the plates together on a schedule recommended by an engineer. I was wondering how the inspector would be able to see the existing bolts if they were covered by the second plate. But like it was stated before, the codes are different all over and maybe it was passed as it was. Maybe we will never know what happened.

 

[aabirdman]

I've never heard of nailing a dbl bottom plate to the bolted pt. Now you are relying on the nails to hold down the wall. The fastest and easiest solution would be to conventional frame the wall ( single bottom plate and come back after inspection and block the bays with blocks relieved for the 3x3 plates/ bolts. No need for an engineer and will pass inspection. If all you have done is the walls stood this is more than likely the best way to get what you want.

 

[aabirdman]

All you need to do is drop the walls, exchange plates and block later. If you cut the studs for wall height then add a third top plate to regain it. Should do the job.

 

[blue dog]

I've never heard of nailing a dbl bottom plate to the bolted pt. Now you are relying on the nails to hold down the wall. The fastest and easiest solution would be to conventional frame the wall ( single bottom plate and come back after inspection and block the bays with blocks relieved for the 3x3 plates/ bolts. No need for an engineer and will pass inspection. If all you have done is the walls stood this is more than likely the best way to get what you want.

I agree with you, but it seems in other parts of the country, the way this was done is standard practice. I believe all the walls were stood up before this became an issue. it would not pass code here in Ca. in this fashion. I sure would like to know what happened.
WHAT HAPPENED?

 

[walrus]

I've never heard of nailing a dbl bottom plate to the bolted pt. Now you are relying on the nails to hold down the wall. .

Its what holds any wall, if I nail the studs into a single plate, its nails holding it down. Once the sheathing is on and its nailed into both plates, it isn't going anywhere

 

[Swampy]

Sorry folks, I have just been so swamped and not been able to get online. Well the inspector said it would be just fine after sheeting. He did say the thickness of these washers was way overkill at 1/4 to 5/16 and definately exagerated the prob. Usually it is not an issue at all.

Anyway, I really appreciate all the help and feedback from the forum. I still am a bit bummed because whether right or wrong it still could be better. There is no doubt it would be much cleaner if routered or relieved out. We drove the wall down hard all around with a sledge before sheeting and it actually helped alot.

Thanks again!

 

[jwillis]

You should not have used the washers to begin with. Or the double sill. But, Oh well. When I had my other house built in 1975, the builder put down roofing tarpaper between the foundation and the sill. (He also put it between the subflooring and the floor) Boy!! Was he ever way ahead of the times. Now I see them do it all the time on the "This Old House" type programs. In fact, they even make a rubber seal to go under the sill to keep insects out and control air drafts. You could have just drilled down through the upper sill with a forstner type bit and just bolted down the bottom sill. To seal the gap that you now have, just get some Quickcrete concrete repair that comes in a tube and put it around the bottom of the sill (on both sides) to keep out the air and insects. One tube will do about twenty feet. Take your finger and shove it under the sill. I used it around the bottom of my new metal garage to keep the rain out and it works great..........p.s. Since you are at the early stage of the game, you might want to think about putting a metal termite shield around the bottom of the house that connects to the sill. When termites go up the wall they will hit the meltal shield and go back down and leave.....................jwillis

 

[WalkThru Guy]

Seeing as there is little framing/weight on the walls yet....beams aside.....here is a suggestion to rectify the issue.

.....get some 1/2" PT plywood and rip strips 5 1/2" wide.....by lag bolting a temporary 2x4 or alike to a series of studs about 14-16 inches off the floor, with a couple of bottle jacks positioned on the floor up to this 2x4, lift the new wall to create a larger gap, cut the plywood to lengths between the problematic washers and slide them into that gap, release the pressure on the jacks and repeat all around the structure. until you have lifted and filled all around the structure.

Once set up, this will take but an hour or two.

Then be sure to properly secure the upper plate to the lower one. You may also want to consider starting your wall sheathing with a layer 1/2" plywood x 2 3/4" high as a baseboard of sorts....then your 1/2 drywall can sit on top. The plywood will further allow you to connect the two plates together....same goes for the exterior sheathing....be sure to connect the two plates together there as well.

I think you will be good to go.

Keep in mind that perhaps your door heights may need to be tweaked by a 1/2" if you've already set heights.

Good luck!

Germain

 

[z28toz06]

No, they did it right. Mine is one sill plate of PT 2x6 and the 2x4 walls on top of that.

I just took a speed bore and drilled out for the nut and j bolt and raised the wall on top of that. Just the weight of the wall and nailing it compressed the doug fir right in to the square washer. They did the same thing when I built my house.

here you can see the sill plate bolted down as we are putting the walls up.

Heres another shot: you can see the pt plate bolted down.

 

[Motown 454]

These pictures are from my engineered plans for my garage. They are for a wind rated 110mph.

They show the 2x6 pt bolted and the 2x4 nailed on top of it. In this case because it has to be wind rated it has extra bolts in the corners of the wall. The sheeting all has to be nailed into both top and bottom plates.
I just thought of something can you drill 4 holes one in wach corner of the washer and cut out the piece which will let the 2x4 rest on the pt board? If your afraid it will compramise the streignth nail and glue a 2x4 on top of it in that bay and nail the sheeting to it like in my plan.