i am replacing the hacked together wiring in my detached garage. i bought a 20 circuit 100 amp box from lowes and had a friend stop by today while i was at work and he moved the power from the old circuit box to the new box and i am going to wire in all the new outlets and lights. i thought this was going to be straight foward but turns out not. the supply to the garage is 220going into the new box. there are 6 wires in the cable going into the box from the main feed from the house. he wired the new box in a way i wasnt expecting. 4 wires go into the 100 amp double breaker (brown and red and brown and red) they are 2 and 2 into the breaker. the other 2 (blue and black) go the left side of the box and are fed into the nuetral side, like i expected. what i didnt expect and dont know if this is correct is the ground wire from the 8ft gound rod is also connected to the nuetral side. so how do i connect the 3 wire romex into the box. the black will go to a circuit breaker but what do i do with the nuetral and ground. do they both go to the nuetral bar. that doesnt seem correct but maybe it is?
need some electrical schooling
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ForceFed70
Well-known member
Definately some weird wiring going on there.
Technically you need a ground conductor going back to your main panel. Not the end of the world if you don't.
Normally, with a subpanel you do not bond (join together) the neutral and the ground. You only do this in your main panel. I'm not sure if this should still be the case when you do not have a ground going back to the main panel. I suspect that bonding the neutral and the ground is the proper course of action when you do not have a ground conductor going to the main panel, but wait for some of the others to reply before taking my word for it.
Pretty sure that code says you are not allowed to use multiple conductors to feed the subpanel, but I personally can't see why it would cause a problem so long as you are careful to have a good connection at the breakers (they are ment for 1 wire only).
Technically you need a ground conductor going back to your main panel. Not the end of the world if you don't.
Normally, with a subpanel you do not bond (join together) the neutral and the ground. You only do this in your main panel. I'm not sure if this should still be the case when you do not have a ground going back to the main panel. I suspect that bonding the neutral and the ground is the proper course of action when you do not have a ground conductor going to the main panel, but wait for some of the others to reply before taking my word for it.
Pretty sure that code says you are not allowed to use multiple conductors to feed the subpanel, but I personally can't see why it would cause a problem so long as you are careful to have a good connection at the breakers (they are ment for 1 wire only).
Alchymist
Well-known member
Sounds like you need advice from an electrician. i see several code violation possibilities already.
ddawg16
Well-known member
Wow.....so many things wrong.....
First off.....you can not use double wires to feed that load center....in other words, you can't take two #8 AWG's and think that it's good for 100A.....If you want 100A....you have to use #3 or larger.
Second......that neutral.....has to be white....yes, on the large stuff you can use white tape....but it has to be a single wire....
Grounds...do not bond your neutral bus to your ground bus....you will need to run a #10 (I believe) from your main load center to your sub panel....but you will also need to install 2 ground rods at least 6 (or 8' depending on local codes) apart and connect a #6 copper wire from them to your ground buss.
And if you tell us your doing this without permits...good lord....then why even ask us....
First off.....you can not use double wires to feed that load center....in other words, you can't take two #8 AWG's and think that it's good for 100A.....If you want 100A....you have to use #3 or larger.
Second......that neutral.....has to be white....yes, on the large stuff you can use white tape....but it has to be a single wire....
Grounds...do not bond your neutral bus to your ground bus....you will need to run a #10 (I believe) from your main load center to your sub panel....but you will also need to install 2 ground rods at least 6 (or 8' depending on local codes) apart and connect a #6 copper wire from them to your ground buss.
And if you tell us your doing this without permits...good lord....then why even ask us....
im pretty sure permits and inspections are non existant here as i just bought the house and the electrical is in poor shape. i have non gfi outlets next to sinks and in the garage. the previous owners used power strips into power strips throughout the garage and basement. the city i moved from would have had a seizure over this kind of stuff.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Wow, so much wrong here! Where to begin?!
First off, nominal utility voltage is 240v/120v. Now 6 wires with the colors you mentioned in a cable is not a standard cable I'm aware of! What type of cable is this? Do u have pics u can post? What gauge and type(Al or CU) of wire is in the cable? What size breaker is feeding this strange cable arrangement? And unless the breaker is listed as allowing multiple wires, then that's not allowed!
Blue and black are not the correct colors for a neutral conductor. A neutral conductor is required to be white or gray!
The GEC (aka. ground wire from the ground rod) is suppose to connect to a ground bar NOT the neutral bar! The EGC from the service main will also connect to the ground bar! It sounds like the panel u got did not come with a ground bar which means u will have to buy one and add it into the panel! And as others have said, you need to have a 4 conductor feeder coming from your service main(hot, hot, neutral and ground). You need to make sure that the neutrals and the neutral bar are insulated from the panel enclosure and isolated from the ground bar! After adding a ground bar and isolating the neutral bar, hooking up a Romex wire is easy- black to breaker lug, white to neutral bar and bare/green to new ground bar!
I'm sure pattenp will be on this thread shortly to post his handy dandy subpanel diagram!
First off, nominal utility voltage is 240v/120v. Now 6 wires with the colors you mentioned in a cable is not a standard cable I'm aware of! What type of cable is this? Do u have pics u can post? What gauge and type(Al or CU) of wire is in the cable? What size breaker is feeding this strange cable arrangement? And unless the breaker is listed as allowing multiple wires, then that's not allowed!
Blue and black are not the correct colors for a neutral conductor. A neutral conductor is required to be white or gray!
The GEC (aka. ground wire from the ground rod) is suppose to connect to a ground bar NOT the neutral bar! The EGC from the service main will also connect to the ground bar! It sounds like the panel u got did not come with a ground bar which means u will have to buy one and add it into the panel! And as others have said, you need to have a 4 conductor feeder coming from your service main(hot, hot, neutral and ground). You need to make sure that the neutrals and the neutral bar are insulated from the panel enclosure and isolated from the ground bar! After adding a ground bar and isolating the neutral bar, hooking up a Romex wire is easy- black to breaker lug, white to neutral bar and bare/green to new ground bar!
I'm sure pattenp will be on this thread shortly to post his handy dandy subpanel diagram!
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Alchymist
Well-known member
If it's fed from a breaker in the house panel, it's a sub-panel. Either way it's still not right....
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
EDIT: Regardless of what type of panel it is, it needs to be wired like a subpanel if its fed from the house subpanel or even if its fed from the service main on the house! And regardless, 4-wire feeders are now required when going to a detached structure, which would mean isolating neutral from ground! If instead the house and garage are both fed from a meter main mounted on a pole, then that's a different story! Either way, u should get someone that knows what they're doing otherwise things could get
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nwav8tor
Well-known member
OP never said it was fed from a breaker in the house panel. He mentioned there were 6 wires in the cable from the 220V main feed from the house into the new panel in the garage.
Could the power to the garage be coming right off the meter base and going to the garage panel? If that was the case, then he'd essentially have two "main" panels, 1 at the house and 1 in the garage. Probably not legal, but if the wiring is as hacked together and in poor shape as he says, anything is possible!
Me thinks we need more info and/or photos to have a better idea...
Paul
Could the power to the garage be coming right off the meter base and going to the garage panel? If that was the case, then he'd essentially have two "main" panels, 1 at the house and 1 in the garage. Probably not legal, but if the wiring is as hacked together and in poor shape as he says, anything is possible!
Me thinks we need more info and/or photos to have a better idea...
Paul
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Good point. However, people who aren't familiar with electrical tend to mix up their terminology so I agree that we need more info and pics!
Zeke
Well-known member
I'm just a casual observer here on the L & E forum. I have seen plenty of houses with multiple breaker panels, all fed from the meter. But multiple wires to the sub panel breaker? That's a new one.
But, as I have seen before in the multiple panel situations, not all panels are sub panels. So therefore, the neutral and ground do not have to be isolated. Right or wrong?
Edit: I think I found the answer in that all panels other than the main are sub panels.
However, even I know a neutral is not blue or black w/o white tape all the way to the panel entrance. And a ground is not anything but green or bare.
This sounds ugly. I like to see pics of where this all comes from and how it's hooked up there.
But, as I have seen before in the multiple panel situations, not all panels are sub panels. So therefore, the neutral and ground do not have to be isolated. Right or wrong?
Edit: I think I found the answer in that all panels other than the main are sub panels.
However, even I know a neutral is not blue or black w/o white tape all the way to the panel entrance. And a ground is not anything but green or bare.
This sounds ugly. I like to see pics of where this all comes from and how it's hooked up there.
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ShadowLeopardis
New member
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U need to get someone that knows what they're doing otherwise things could get
If in doubt, hire an electrician than get
Zeke
Well-known member
You guys that preach on end about hiring an electrician crack me up. I have hired licensed electricians that were worthless. Unless there is an inspection as part of the process, not everything is always going to be Kosher.
Here in CA, all employees working for an electrical contractor and doing residential work have to carry a cert. That helps a lot. But there are a lot of fly-by-nights out there that portray themselves as journeymen electricians.
So, it does help to have forums like this to check facts. It doesn't help one bit to preach. I might suggest either input some practical info, ask questions, or just listen.
Here in CA, all employees working for an electrical contractor and doing residential work have to carry a cert. That helps a lot. But there are a lot of fly-by-nights out there that portray themselves as journeymen electricians.
So, it does help to have forums like this to check facts. It doesn't help one bit to preach. I might suggest either input some practical info, ask questions, or just listen.
Alchymist
Well-known member
Unless the OP puts up enough info (& pictures), it's difficult to help - so the next best solution is to suggest an electrician. Hopefully they consult a qualified one. If it's a fly-by-night they consult, that's a different forum!
MrMark
Well-known member
That's only for c-10 licensed electrical contractors, correct?
There is still a gaping loophole where a general contractor (who is allowed to do electrical himself under some multiple trade exception) can just hire anyone to do electrical, also correct?
But, I agree 100 percent about your main point. Although I disagree that inspection matters much on the quality of the job. There is a tremendous range of licensed electricians out there, from ones who are utterly incompetent, to the best. Pretty much like anything else. The vast majority in the middle are probably somewhat OK.
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Feeders are paralleled all the time in commercial work
Zeke
Well-known member
I'm a general and I don't think I personally can perform residential electrical work even though my license provides that I can do multiple trades. I have no cert for elec. And I'm almost certain I cannot hire an electrician/employee that does not carry a cert.
I'll have to check. I've had a license since '81 and I haven't kept up with some of the regs. A lot of them are just a nuisance anyway. I mostly installed windows and doors with some remodeling along the way. Both commercial and residential. A few room adds, but no real building.
Just a hell of a lot of doors and windows. I moved my share of branch circuits to accommodate a new opening. Not sure if I can do that anymore.
Legally. And that and the fact that everyone is law suit happy is sending me quickly into retirement.
But, that wasn't the point of the thread. I digress.
Still like to see some pics of this panel and the power source.
ddawg16
Well-known member
That is comercial work.....when I have a 3000A MCC.....no, your not going to be running a single conductor for each phase....
I still don't think this is the main load center....who as seen a service drop using mulitiple wires?
Hopefully someone will correct me...but it was my understanding that below a certain amperage, you could not use mulitiple conductors....
MrMark? I'm sure you know for sure....
Many times
you are correct, i dont know if it is fed through the has main panel or off the meter base. i will get some pictures sunday if i have time.
Delta74
Well-known member
just adding in here, yes we use Multiple feeders in commercial and Industrial, but NOT under breaker lugs, not allowed, second you cant double up anything less then #1 wire, and there are a host of other rules to parallel runs of wires, anyway regardless, I would call and ask about a permit ( dont admit to anything just ask if its needed and cover your *** ) second Hire a real electrician to get that sorted out, when if a fire starts for any reason and they see that, no payout sorry hack job, not our fault.
none of your post sounded right or even safe to me, but what do I know, anyway back to work I go, need to wire two, 5000 HP motors, got 8 1000 mcm to tie in per phase.
none of your post sounded right or even safe to me, but what do I know, anyway back to work I go, need to wire two, 5000 HP motors, got 8 1000 mcm to tie in per phase.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Just the reason why I said the OP should get someone that knows what they're doing. I've seen plenty of 'licensed' electricians screw things up and do hack work!
Yes, the employee electrical certification only applies to employees working for a licensed C-10 electrical contractor.
I have mixed feelings about this 'new' certification requirement. Maybe it has prevented some customers from getting hacked or messed up wiring, but to me it mainly just seems to be more bureaucratic red tape! The test is a rip- several people told me its $400!
And this certification requirement was pushed by the IBEW unions. After it passed, the state required EVERYONE to take the certification test including union contractor employees. But the unions complained, trying to say they should be exempt! The state said a big NO!
I thought the whole point of working for a 'licensed' contractor was that if an employee screwed up, it was on the contractor's *** to fix it. And thus most 'licensed' contractors would be/should be proactive in making sure the work done by their employees is kosher! So maybe the state should be going after the 'licensed' contractors who do hack work instead of more bureaucratic BS laws that obviously don't prevent hack work and just make the cost of doing business go up! (*END RANT*)
5000HP??? O_O Is that a TYPO???
Yes, please post some pics AND some more details like:
1)wire type(al or cu), insulation grade and gauge
2)breaker size that's feeding this branch circuit
3)what panel this circuit is being fed from
Etc.
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MrMark
Well-known member
I'm pretty sure you are correct on this. I have seen this posted many times that below certain gauge you cannot double the wires up. Commercial using much higher current levels and bigger wire is different.
Posting above lays down the rules, as you thought.
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MrMark
Well-known member
Check on this. I'm virtually certain that you can do electrical under the multiple trades exception and that you could hire a day laborer to do it too. I've seen this done MANY times around these parts. The requirement of hiring only cert electricians applies only to C10's. It is a crazy rule.
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Aceman
Well-known member
You can't parallel anything smaller than 1/0.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
, I thought it was #1. U happen to have a code cite so I can read up on it?ddawg16
Well-known member
Good solid info to know....
Delta? that is a lot of HP in a 480Vac motor.....sounds like they should have been going medium voltage on those.....(4160Vac).....but then again, that is a whole new setup.....walk in cabinets....special training...etc.
I've done up to 1000 HP (1400A)....cost of the copper alone was more than some peoples houses....
Delta74
Well-known member
just checking in, they are 600 volt motors, the old worn out ones were a pair of 3,000 HP, 600 volt DC, the new units are a pair of 5,000 HP, 600 Volt 3 Phase, amp rating around 4900 AMPS, and if you think the copper for 8 runs of 1,000 MCM ( per phase ) is expensive, think on this, the feeds are about 450 feet long, AND are tied in to a pair of massive VFD's ( one per motor ). the two motors are coupled to a large drum, the drum is the spool for the Potash Skip ( big *** bucket ) that lifts almost 50 tons of potash almost a Mile in 90 seconds from the mine.
as a side note, 277/480 is almost a dead voltage here, most of our stuff for commerical / industrial is 347/600 Volt ( nominal voltage 575) in ten years only seen 480 once, and even then it was slowly being phased out and all new gear was 600v, actually installed a transformer to kick it down to 480 for the old side of the plant, while all the new was 600
as a side note, 277/480 is almost a dead voltage here, most of our stuff for commerical / industrial is 347/600 Volt ( nominal voltage 575) in ten years only seen 480 once, and even then it was slowly being phased out and all new gear was 600v, actually installed a transformer to kick it down to 480 for the old side of the plant, while all the new was 600
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Wow O_O! The transformer(s) feeding those motors must be HUGE! U got any pics to share of the motors, cable or transformers?
ddawg16
Well-known member
Well....this is a pic of a 1000 HP motor.....weights about 8,000 lbs
That motor turns one of these....that wheel is about 6' in dia...weights about 1500 lbs..
Oh course it is not supposed to look like that....(bad weld....the carnaige was not pretty)
But compared to what Delta is doing....this is just a toy.....
His beast is going to have it's own sub-station.....do you know how hard it is to pull that wire? Well....you don't use string....you use big ropes and some motors to turn a wheel....
That motor turns one of these....that wheel is about 6' in dia...weights about 1500 lbs..
Oh course it is not supposed to look like that....(bad weld....the carnaige was not pretty)
But compared to what Delta is doing....this is just a toy.....
His beast is going to have it's own sub-station.....do you know how hard it is to pull that wire? Well....you don't use string....you use big ropes and some motors to turn a wheel....
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
WoW! Yeah, I just did the math for the transformer- the amps per KVA constant for 600v is just shy of a 1:1 ratio! So, I see what you're saying about the need for a substation for that size! Now is the 4900 amps for one motor or both, Delta?
ddawg16
Well-known member
I'm willing to bet that it's 'per' motor...
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Wow! So, a 10,000 KVA trany! Dang!
Yeah I'm also surprised they're not running those on medium voltage like 4KV!Delta74
Well-known member
ok, hope this works, rather then hi-jack this thread anymore, I started one over in free parking , Pictures from work. hope the links work.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2616420#post2616420
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2616420#post2616420
Update. i do not need a permit and there are no inspections in the city i live in. Ironicly city council is currently debating adding inspections and permit requirements to building codes. I have another issue with the wiring and I am going to give my buddy a chance to correct it before I find someone else. I am limiting the use of electricity in the garage to the one circuit that powers the garage door opener until all wiring issues are resolved. until then all circuit breakers are off but the one i need most.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Yeah, I'd say inspections and permits are the last of your worries and a possible fire is the first! What exactly is wrong with the wiring other than the obvious and what we already know?