Old mess sub panels

[Stuntmonkey]

Gents,

Need some help with this one. Currently have a 100A service, and looking to put in a 60A sub in the garage for my new millermatic 251 and syncrowave.

Current setup:

1) 100A house panel (full) - service is 3C/#3.

2) 60A sub panel in the basement which was used to feed a hot tub that not longer exists and now feeds the range and A/C.

Loads of concern: Range, Dryer, A/C, Jetted Tub (currently on a 2 pole 15), Hot Water Heater, Dishwasher and Microwave.

House Sqft: 2300 + 900 basement.

Here's the kicker, nothing really gets used that much. It's my wife and 4 year old daughter. A/C barely gets run, and only feeds the upstairs bedrooms. Furnace is gas, range never uses the full wattage. The reality is the most commonly used item is the dryer.

What I'm hoping to do is pull the dryer breaker, put a 60A in there and run a sub panel into my shop with 3C/#6 NMD (it's like 12ft) and then run the dryer off that panel, as well as my welders.

How's that sound? I've got a quote with the service provider to see how much it is to go up to 200A and just run a dedicated 100A panel in the garage but I'm not holding my breath as we are 100% underground service. And this is Canada!

(Attached pic is current setup)

 

[mike93lx]

I ran a house with an electric range, electric dryer, 3 sump pumps, 3 portable a/c's, 2 full size fridges, a chest freezer and a bunch of a/v gear on 60a service. Upgraded to 100 when I swapped the panel.

Only major difference with your setup is the water heater. You have an electric despite having gas?

 

[Stuntmonkey]

I ran a house with an electric range, electric dryer, 3 sump pumps, 3 portable a/c's, 2 full size fridges, a chest freezer and a bunch of a/v gear on 60a service. Upgraded to 100 when I swapped the panel.

Only major difference with your setup is the water heater. You have an electric despite having gas?

Currently shopping for a slightly used wolf range that I can swap out, but yeah, I know what you are getting at.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Do a load calc first

 

[Stuntmonkey]

Do a load calc first

Already done. 98.26A. But's of course with the assumption of everything running at the same time.

 

[sberry]

If you are moving the dryer to it heavy it up a size, 90 or 100, won't hurt a thing.

 

[sberry]

A 251 isn't new, it's a fairly heavy machine, or could be. Not normally used that way in small garages though. Real load is about 40. What synch model?

 

[Stuntmonkey]

A 251 isn't new, it's a fairly heavy machine, or could be. Not normally used that way in small garages though. Real load is about 40. What synch model?

New to me, snagged it for cheap at a bankruptcy auction. Syncrowave is a 180SD. I’ll never come close to running full duty cycle in this house. But yeah, probably a smart idea to bump it up to 100A panel.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Already done. 98.26A. But's of course with the assumption of everything running at the same time.

And you're asking whether you can add an additional 60A subpanel?
I'd say no, you can't

 

[Stuntmonkey]

Like I said, that would be running the AC at full blast, the oven on with all four burners, running the dishwasher, the dryer, the washing machine, the microwave and having a hot bath with the jets going.

Never going to happen.

 

[mike93lx]

Like I said, that would be running the AC at full blast, the oven on with all four burners, running the dishwasher, the dryer, the washing machine, the microwave and having a hot bath with the jets going.

Never going to happen.

I bet if I did a load Calc on the house I mentioned earlier, I would have been well over. And yet, I never had a problem nor has anyone that has lived there after I moved out

 

[AntonLargiader]

Already done. 98.26A. But's of course with the assumption of everything running at the same time.

Not sure what you mean by that. A real load calc is formula-based and doesn't assume everything running at once.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Like I said, that would be running the AC at full blast, the oven on with all four burners, running the dishwasher, the dryer, the washing machine, the microwave and having a hot bath with the jets going.
Never going to happen.

I'm not sure how you calculate loads using the CEC, but by the square footage of the house (for lighting and general use receptacles), the required kitchen and laundry loads add up to about 54 amps by the NEC, without the AC, dryer, oven, etc. even on at all.

 

[sberry]

I have ran 2x a gob of **** past a load calc and not tripped up 100. Welding is so intermittent it seems almost irrelevent. I used to worry about it, dont anymore.

 

[alfredeneuman]

I have ran 2x a gob of **** past a load calc and not tripped up 100. Welding is so intermittent it seems almost irrelevent. I used to worry about it, dont anymore.

That doesn't make it right, does it? Do you have your personal work inspected?

 

[Stuntmonkey]

Not sure what you mean by that. A real load calc is formula-based and doesn't assume everything running at once.

It is formula based. It’s 5000w for the first 90sqM and 1000W for each additional 90sqM.

Range and AC is calculated at 100% of load, Dryer is 100% based on latest changes too.

 

[sberry]

No, doesn't make it right but I remember hooking up a temp to 100 and the inspector even commented, you might have breaker trips. It never did, ran a welding shop for a year from it, 5 hp comp, 3 hp well, 4 fridges, 250 feeder, 50A plasma, 20 people living on it.
I have never seen 100 overloaded. Seen it on 60 fuses, electric water, range and dryer, heavy microwave, 3 kid with hair dryer. Saw a 200 at a bar in hot weather, panel on south brown wall. The list of equipment was big, a lot. Friday night fish fry.

 

[sberry]

I got 400 but if I was doing it again would do 2 to make aux easier. Poco put 15k ****** on it, dont notice a blink and I got a gob of stuff but gas water heat and cooking. I understand the calc but I done this before, the concern about true overload is over rated. When his welder is off the garage isn't even a factor.

 

[sberry]

I got 400 but if I was doing it again would do 2 to make aux easier. Poco put 15k ****** on it, dont notice a blink and I got a gob of stuff but gas water heat and cooking. I understand the calc but I done this before, the concern about true overload is over rated. When his welder is off the garage isn't even a factor.
My first mentor was a compulsive v drop worrier, this at the expense of a lot of other stuff. I fussed over it a lot for stuff never came or mattered. Be different if this was a new install. I think he should up the feed to 90, if he has to heavy up to 200 will be ready.

 

[alfredeneuman]

No, doesn't make it right but I remember hooking up a temp to 100 and the inspector even commented, you might have breaker trips.

So if Stuntmonkey had his job inspected do you think it would pass?
(Remember this isn't about your experiences. You're supposed to be advising him)
Did you have your job inspected after you added all that ****?

 

[sberry]

Is there a law against him adding a sub to his existi g service? I did "advise", put a wire in heavier than 6, if he has to upgrade the sub will be ready for it. Leave a little curl of extra wire along the way so it would reach in the event of an upgrade.
I will agree a lot of people's personal experiences are not very accurate and I tend to use some here where it might apply. Some of mine are "accumulative" generalizations. Most of the time, this being a little accepting while we added a lot of equipment much is energy saver or rather smaller peak.
Shops,, garages main additions are adding air conditioning and 5 hp comps that were not as common.
But,, the cases I quote are usually from long time, from work I or friends own a long time and not talking about stuff I installed, hopped back in the truck and never see again but a best bud I was at the shop couple times a week for 25 years after I put a 60 in to feed it. 5 hp 28A comp, 15 run air conditioning and occasional welder, didn't use it while the air ran which is easy to do in a small shop if a guy isnt deaf. 25 years, 2 men fixing cars every day, not a single main trip.
The 100 temp I mention was installed in existing, all the equipment already installed, as I mention the inspector said something about the potential for a trip but it never happened and we add wayyyy more load than a homebody type ever could. .
The thought that it wouldn't work was total speculation and maybe even a swag but it didn't happen was a fact.
Be different if this was a new service install, I would be the first to say 200, and I might have said 20 yrs ago he absolutely needs an upgrade now but today am more inclined to see what the actual is and if it matters provided the existing equipment is in good shape. That is a big factor also, adding to an old corroded service that is going to need replacement under the when not if clause would certainly be an influence.

 

[sberry]

Here is why I dont get as excited. Back when it was a revelation to me I thought everytime someone plugged in a welder it would brownout. I hae some buds that rather ignored my wisdom and simply added an outlet with a 10 cable and went on their way.
Other than the fact we got subpanel worded in here this is mostly simply adding a 50 outlet. I have seen hot tubs on 100 didn't cause any problem or burn the place to the ground. Welding is generally less if a guy isnt making a living on it. Got another bud run welding shop decades from a **** ole service, it worked.
I have replaced a lot of **** service, done some upgrades cause the service wasn't gonna get it but guys been adding welder outlets to 60 for decades, then to 100. Have replaced most due to age and most due to age of meter bases and related wire by far, not one I can recall because a bud couldn't weld,,,,, a hundred worn damaged old, obsolete . Most really didn't use 50 more watts than before.
Services I seen overloaded been that way a long time, seen them age and burn never seen a peak of 40,
My bud had a 60, it was old when he got it but it had electric range, water heater, dryer, and a heavy micro. Had gas furnace but old lamps, 3 maniac kids. Shower stove laundry running g constant. He was on it 10 years before I put new in it, one day it all came together, o reheated a connection.

 

[sberry]

Sounds like the op has considered this to some extent, he could have got a more modern machine but zhit,, 15A difference really, intermit, nothing. Be different with a busy family with a 250$ electric bill.
This is the kind of thing that I might upgrade as much due to equity or remodel as a true demand for more power. I got nothing against it, might be part of a future project if it was adequate now.

 

[AntonLargiader]

It is formula based. It’s 5000w for the first 90sqM and 1000W for each additional 90sqM.

Range and AC is calculated at 100% of load, Dryer is 100% based on latest changes too.

Thanks for the details. CEC sure handles it differently. How would it calculate the load under your proposed setup?

 

[Diesel Dan]

The 100 temp I mention was installed in existing, all the equipment already installed, as I mention the inspector said something about the potential for a trip but it never happened and we add wayyyy more load than a homebody type ever could. .
The thought that it wouldn't work was total speculation and maybe even a swag but it didn't happen was a fact.

Have you considered the main breaker was faulty and you were in fact pulling more than 100A?

 

[sberry]

It was a brand new SQD main. It certainly could have been fully loaded at times but it's not continious. It ran thru a couple seasons, one winter we ran a weld shop from 60 but the air comp was on another circuit. We mostly ran 1 major machine at a time and had about 1000 watts of lights.
We were cautious to start with but soon got over it.

 

[Stuntmonkey]

Well the POCO finally got back to me and I’m good for up to 150A on my current underground conductors. So I’ll clean up the panels, change out the main and move some things around, put a 100A panel in the garage and feed it from a 60A.

 

[sberry]

If you are going to all that effort put 90 to the garage.