Plumbing help - sweating

[battmain]

Need some wisdom please...

The issue. Leaky toilet valve. Easy. Replace it right? Problem. It's under the bowl and tank and not in a very accessible spot. I tried a micro torch, but all that did was annoy me and the pipe wasn't even connected to anything at the time. Just holding it with the pliers. I went to the bigger propane torch. The valve to the pipe finally went after I realized I needed at least thirty seconds to heat up everything. The valve->pipe to the female (to female) coupling went ok. Now the last part. To the existing pipe that I cut. I used bread to block the flow of water and got the top part done, but when I used the mirror to inspect the bottom, it appears it didn't get hot enough. The solder didn't get there and now it's leaking. The main valve to the house is off, but residual water has been dripping since last night or the main valve is leaking. I tried using the torch from underneath, but all that did is scare me because of how long the flame was on the pipe. Didn't want to burn the place down when the foil (protecting the wall) started glowing. The flame was not pointed at the foil but it is pretty close at less than an inch.

Can someone share some wisdom please? I really don't think I need to call a plumber. At least not yet.

 

[popbigguy]

Dump the propane tank, and get a mapp gas tank. It gets hotter and does an better job.

 

[A29]

don't forget to use flux also. Don't ask how I know.

 

[lilredex]

Are you sure the is no water in the pipe?.......'cause a regular propane torch has lots of heat to do what you are doing. Suggest you take apart that offending joint and clean it up so it sparkles. Then tin the male stub (Run an emory strip around it to bring it back to size) heat your coupling and slip it on. Add a dab of solder if needed to fill the joint. If not perfectly clean (and fluxed) you'll always have joints that look like that.

 

[battmain]

don't forget to use flux also. Don't ask how I know.

Lol. Yep, I figured that one out after a few beads of solder fell on the floor. I guess I'm going to pull this thing off, clean it up, get the old bread out and try again. I'll also go pick up one of those small yellow tanks. Maybe the pipe wasn't dry when I thought it was?

 

[battmain]

Are you sure the is no water in the pipe?

I just posted a question like that. I was wondering the same thing. I'll try again. Back to taking it apart...

Edit: Forgot to ask, when you say, tin the male end, are you saying heat it up and tin like you would a soldering iron? Then put the other fluxed piece on?

 

[walrus]

Doesn't look hot enough to me. Make sure both the pipe and inside of fitting are clean, sand paper, wire brush made for fittings , steel wool etc. Flux on fitting and on pipe, slide together and heat, solder should flow. BTW sweating pipe that has solder on it from before can be a pain or it least has been for me

 

[metal1313]

sand the **** out of it. if theres solder on the pipe already, heat it, then take emory cloth in a rag and clean it as much as possible. flux both the pipe and fitting well, and apply heat to the pipe, the colder fitting will draw in the solder.

 

[tonydanzah]

Dump the propane tank, and get a mapp gas tank. It gets hotter and does an better job.

yep yep

 

[deathbound]

Try opening up a couple exterior hose bibs & it might give any backed up water a place to go....hopefully at least one is lower than the joint you're working on.

 

[mktbully]

with the main off open up the lowest faucet in the house and open up the faucet that's highest in the house. it will drain out the system.

 

[battmain]

Thanks for the help everyone. The issue was not enough heat. It was immediately noticeable after taking the piece back off and looking at it. The cool side was directly opposite the flame (not at the bottom of the joint) and it was intriguing to see the solder inside the joint until that point where it actually went outside the joint. I cleaned everything up, got some wet towels and went at it again with the flame from the bottom. I twisted the fitting a bit and I got lucky since it would take no more solder. When everything cooled, there were no more drips. I left it for a while and it was still good. Then turned on the main line. Still no drips hours later.

I was googling too and found some other info about flux that contains silver in it. Had I known, I would have gotten that one instead. Would have saved me some time.

I'll get that other gas cylinder when this one runs out.

 

[Abodyracer]

I was googling too and found some other info about flux that contains silver in it. Had I known, I would have gotten that one instead. Would have saved me some time.

Yep. Its called tinning flux and is gray in color vs a cream type of color.
http://www.oatey.com/Plumber/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/76/No.+95+Tinning+Flux.html

It makes soldering for a novice a piece of cake. Propane gets plenty hot to do the job. Just put the flame on the fitting and hold it until the flame turns green on the opposite side then give it the solder. The tinning flux will draw the solder into the joint. Do all sides of the fitting at the same time if possible. At least this is how I was trained to solder and have lost of luck doing it this way.

And on a side note use silver solder for copper pluming pipe.
http://www.oatey.com/Plumber/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/364/Safe+Flo®+Lead+Free+Plumbing+Solder.html

 

[MrMark]

YOu are supposed to heat the pipe first, all the way around, and then the fitting all the way around. You work the heat back and forth all the way around and end with the heat at the bottom of the fitting cup. As you push the solder into the joint you keep the torch moving ahead of the solder. Of course, no one does this, but it is the right way to solder.

The Cooper Organization Handbook lays this out. It is essential study material.

BTW, that aluminum foil is not remotely safe. You should use a special fire mat available at Home Depot or two layers of galvanized steel.

I've never heard of or used tinning flux, and I've never seen a plumber use it either.

The best flux is Everflux from the UK. http://www.plumbersurplus.com/Prod/Everflux-Soldering-Paste-250-ml/6839/Cat/114

The best solder is Lenox Silver Solder.

Home Depot carries the Lenox, and you can get the Everflux from a plumbing store. The quality flux makes a difference. You should have been on that fitting about 15 seconds (no more) with a good torch.

 

[Sterff]

FYI, you should really only clean copper tubing with grit cloth or emery cloth. Steel wool is bad to use due to the oil in it. It also is good practice to use fitting brushes and clean the fittings. The cleaner the joint the easier it is to solder. I have some 50/50 lead solder which is the easiest solder to use. These days you can't buy it because of the lead. Solder has to have less than .2% lead now.

 

[gabeancounter]

Take the valve off and go buy a compression stop. I would imagine you have already burnt the washers in the stop anyway. If you have water in the line and can not get it to completly turn off then you will never get the pipe hot enough to take solider. You will hear the water popping and blowing the flux and solider back out. Good luck.

 

[metal1313]

one of the items i keep in my plumbing box is a burn mat, but i also have some small squares of drywall. sometimes its easier to use the scrap to protect the wall rather than the mats. and its cheap, and i just throw it out after im done.

as for flux some are better than others, but i wouldnt worry much about it, if you have things really clean you wont really have problems. i also like to either buy cheap fitting brushes and cut them off and use them in a drill, or buy ones meant for a drill in bulk. http://www.plumbingsupply.com/solder.html

 

[Sterff]

There also is a spray on material that you can use to prevent wood, etc. from burning. We use it when soldering water lines in new homes.

 

[User_Name]

Yep. Its called tinning flux and is gray in color vs a cream type of color.
http://www.oatey.com/Plumber/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/76/No.+95+Tinning+Flux.html

It makes soldering for a novice a piece of cake. Propane gets plenty hot to do the job. Just put the flame on the fitting and hold it until the flame turns green on the opposite side then give it the solder. The tinning flux will draw the solder into the joint.

I tried that stuff recently and hated it. Totally, completely despised it. I donut(heh) know if I used it incorrectly but damned, I found it made for real ugly joints. It also just "felt wrong" while using it - things seemed to go slower. Went back to the regular Oatey flux immediately.

 

[IONH]

First flux I ever bought was a couple years ago from Home Depot. Was "water based". I fought with that for over an hour and destroyed a ball shutoff in the process.

Bought another shutoff and some regular flux and it soldered moments later.

I agree with everyone who's saying to ditch the Propane and get a MAPP gas torch.

 

[Sterff]

I have always used "Nokorode" Paste Flux. It works good for me.

 

[nmk_61802]

I've been getting rid of all of the sweat on valves in my house. I have been changing them to a copper/ mnpt fitting to accept a standard threaded valve. This is much easier to change in the future event of a valve failure, it is open during the sweating so the steam escapes out it instead of the joint, and does not require as much heat to sweat as the thicker walled valves do.

 

[IONH]

How many of you here actually buy new flux yearly? Isn't that the rule?

 

[lilredex]

How many of you here actually buy new flux yearly? Isn't that the rule?

Hardly, here are my supplies from around 1968 (?) and still going strong.

 

[e-tek]

Hardly, here are my supplies from around 1968 (?) and still going strong.

You can't be doing much soldering!

 

[IONH]

You can't be doing much soldering!

I would think that a lot of us non-plumbers who haven't completely reworked the plumbing in a house probably never go through a full can/container of flux.

 

[alexb2000]

+1 to just get a compression valve and be done with it.
This is not the repair to start soldering on.

 

[lilredex]

You can't be doing much soldering!

Funny.......Actually have a few of those much older, that one was the most photogenic, just trying to make a point. The paste shown is not that old as the contents are shown in gms.

 

[speed bump]

I must be a weirdo unless I am joining two different metals I almost never use anything other than sil-fos 15 expensive but worth it.

As far as fluxes go just go into a real plumbing supply shop ask them what they recommend and be done with it.

 

[kbs2244]

I know the purists will yell…
But jobs like this is when I use epoxy.
No fire danger and stronger than solder.

Just be sure you do it right because it is a PIA to undo.

 

[Bulldog13]

Those fittings and the pipe didn't look too clean...you need to clean the pieces then apply th e flux and then heat a dry run.I've replaced a ton of copper in my house and I remember my first attempt went as bad as this one..it gets easier with practice.