Portland garage wiring project

[Chumble]

Our house is in Portland, Oregon. I've done some very small woodworking projects in my garage, but the lack of power, heat, light, etc. have made them summer only and less than comfortable. I've been planning on wiring my detached garage to be used as a small woodshop, and I'm at the point where I could use some help.

The house has a 200 amp panel installed in 2004:

I would like to install a sub panel in the garage. I would like the sub panel to be very capable, with plenty of space for expansion and ample amperage to accommodate any crazy hobby I might wander into later.

I plan on burying the electrical wire in conduit, and also running cat 5 network wires in the same conduit if possible, or in a parallel conduit if necessary. While I don't want overkill on the number of wires, type, or gauge, I definitely don't want to scrimp. I want any house inspector or future homeowner who looks at this work to be at least very satisfied, and hopefully very pleased. Advice on this is appreciated, although this is not where I need immediate help.

I'm getting stuck at the moment visualizing how exactly to dig the trench for the conduit. I know I'll need to rent a trencher, but there is a lot of concrete in the way and I'm unsure how to get around it.

The concrete at the side of the house is the most troublesome to me. (Reference the shot with the hose reel above.) I don't want (for example) a conduit laid on top of the concrete. Should I cut out a section of the sidewalk beside the house, trench, and then repave the section? If so, what tools do I need to buy/rent (pavement saw, etc.)? Is it possible / a good idea to tunnel in the soil beneath the sidewalk, then fill it back in with dirt once I am done?

Can I drill a horizontal circular hole into my house foundation to install the conduit, once I've dug down on the outside of my foundation? If so, what tool does this? Should I NOT do that, and do something else? Same question goes for the garage - can I drill a vertical hole in the pad? Should I?

Even ignoring the sidewalk around the house, there is no straight shot to the garage. There are other 3-4 foot sections where I have to deal with concrete, no matter how convoluted a route I might try to take.

I would prefer not to have exposed conduit anywhere outside the house, and this includes the garage. The garage floor was re-laid in 2007, and was reinforced with re-bar. (Tree roots had buckled and cracked the original pad. We removed these tree roots when we re-laid the floor, and talked the neighboring landlord into cutting down the offending tree, but it might happen again in a decade or two.)

I apologize if any or all of these are well-understood or common topics. I've done a fair amount of lurking and surfing and haven't seen clear answers to these sorts of things.

If more explanation is needed please say so and I'll try to clarify. Same goes for pictures.

 

[Aceman]

Since you have an overhead service to the house call your power co. and ask if they'll drop another at the garage and what extra meter fees they may charge. Otherwise it looks like you'll need a concrete saw and jackhammer to do it the way you're proposing.

 

[Chumble]

Aceman:

Thanks for your response.

I realize going overhead would be easier - probably far easier. At the moment I'm convinced I do not wish to do this. Remember, I also want to run network cable from the house.

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

Our house is in Portland, Oregon. I've done some very small woodworking projects in my garage, but the lack of power, heat, light, etc. have made them summer only and less than comfortable. I've been planning on wiring my detached garage to be used as a small woodshop, and I'm at the point where I could use some help.

The house has a 200 amp panel installed in 2004:

I would like to install a sub panel in the garage. I would like the sub panel to be very capable, with plenty of space for expansion and ample amperage to accommodate any crazy hobby I might wander into later.

I plan on burying the electrical wire in conduit, and also running cat 5 network wires in the same conduit if possible, or in a parallel conduit if necessary. While I don't want overkill on the number of wires, type, or gauge, I definitely don't want to scrimp. I want any house inspector or future homeowner who looks at this work to be at least very satisfied, and hopefully very pleased. Advice on this is appreciated, although this is not where I need immediate help.

I'm getting stuck at the moment visualizing how exactly to dig the trench for the conduit. I know I'll need to rent a trencher, but there is a lot of concrete in the way and I'm unsure how to get around it.

The concrete at the side of the house is the most troublesome to me. (Reference the shot with the hose reel above.) I don't want (for example) a conduit laid on top of the concrete. Should I cut out a section of the sidewalk beside the house, trench, and then repave the section? If so, what tools do I need to buy/rent (pavement saw, etc.)? Is it possible / a good idea to tunnel in the soil beneath the sidewalk, then fill it back in with dirt once I am done?

Can I drill a horizontal circular hole into my house foundation to install the conduit, once I've dug down on the outside of my foundation? If so, what tool does this? Should I NOT do that, and do something else? Same question goes for the garage - can I drill a vertical hole in the pad? Should I?

Even ignoring the sidewalk around the house, there is no straight shot to the garage. There are other 3-4 foot sections where I have to deal with concrete, no matter how convoluted a route I might try to take.

I would prefer not to have exposed conduit anywhere outside the house, and this includes the garage. The garage floor was re-laid in 2007, and was reinforced with re-bar. (Tree roots had buckled and cracked the original pad. We removed these tree roots when we re-laid the floor, and talked the neighboring landlord into cutting down the offending tree, but it might happen again in a decade or two.)

I apologize if any or all of these are well-understood or common topics. I've done a fair amount of lurking and surfing and haven't seen clear answers to these sorts of things.

If more explanation is needed please say so and I'll try to clarify. Same goes for pictures.

Whats going on in the pics with the dirt against the window? If that is what I think, you need to do something about that real quick. Also - you need some serious scraping and painting work.

 

[Falcon67]

Since you have an overhead service to the house call your power co. and ask if they'll drop another at the garage and what extra meter fees they may charge. Otherwise it looks like you'll need a concrete saw and jackhammer to do it the way you're proposing.

I would not - or you better ask about the details first. I did that here because there is a pole only about 40' from the back of the shop. I found out after wiring the shop and getting the power hooked up (plus buying a meter box, disconnect, conduit, weather head, etc, etc, etc) that second meters get charged at a commercial rate for the second meter. I complained to the Texas PUC and was told that is typical, only one meter per residence and anything more is considered "commercial". So I eventually went to taking off the house meter and running a separate service to the garage. By the time I got that done, we had paid about 10 times in service charges what it would have cost to pull cable from the house to the shop in the first place.

How far is the garage from the house? if it's not real far, consider wireless. I use wireless here - Cat 5 is old school LOL (said the network admin). My bench is about 50' from the wireless node in the house. Works fine. If you do pull Cat, do it in a separate conduit. And don't think it's safe down there. Wireless will be cheaper and less hassle in the long run IMHO.

Since you have breaker space in the house panel, I'd come off with a 60A breaker and #6, then come out of the house, down, turn and follow the driveway by the fence to the short wall next to the overhead door and come up and turn right into the wall there. Paint to match the garage wall and you'll never see or, or plant a small bush. I would not drill the slab or punch out below grade on the house. Not worth the hassle IMHO.

 

[Chumble]

"Whats going on in the pics with the dirt against the window? If that is what I think, you need to do something about that real quick. Also - you need some serious scraping and painting work."

The "dirt" is dried grass clippings. You're right, I need to clean them up.

And yes the house needs to be re-shingled, repainted, possibly re-sided. Agreed, but that's another project.

 

[Chumble]

"How far is the garage from the house? if it's not real far, consider wireless. I use wireless here - Cat 5 is old school LOL (said the network admin). My bench is about 50' from the wireless node in the house. Works fine. If you do pull Cat, do it in a separate conduit. And don't think it's safe down there. Wireless will be cheaper and less hassle in the long run IMHO."

Yes, wireless would work. I don't like wireless much, although I have it and use it. I've gone to the trouble to completely wire my house for gigabit wired ethernet - every room (besides hallways and bathrooms) has multiple jacks on at least one wall. Some rooms have multiple jacks on every wall in the room. I have a full 19" rack in the server room. In short: I prefer copper cat5 wiring and efforts to talk me out of it will frustrate both of us. (I do acknowledge you're correct, I just don't want to do it.) Separate conduit makes sense and I will do that.

 

[dodgeram2500]

You could do overhead from the house to garage I guess...If it was me I'd hand dig a trench and lift the concrete sections with a 5' or 6' bar. You could also drill a hole through the concrete big enough for your conduit, then dig under the concrete.

...just a few suggestions...

 

[royalton10]

I would give strong consideration to running the required size cable as a NM cable (probably a #6 if doing 60 amps) from your main panel, go thru the floor joists by drilling holes at the easiest spot closest to the wall. Drill another set of holes and not use holes already there. (hey, you already have wires going thru the joists anyway) Go to the back corner of the house so the exit point will be behind the fence. Punch thru to the outside either above or below grade, your choice. Run the inside NM cable to a junction box that you can use conduit into. Use 4 correctly sized THWN wires from junction box, thru all of the conduit to your entry point in garage. Use conduit all the way from inside junction box to garage subpanel. This will require 2 different kinds of wire. You can get junction boxes of about any size at Lowes of HD, use the hole saw to correct size to enter conduit into. Run conduit from corner of house to garage. You could then hand dig the trench from house to garage. This would have a shorter trench and avoid all of the concrete issues in front of the house.

Just an idea.

Doug

Lancaster, Ohio

 

[Falcon67]

I think Doug has a handle on it. That sounds easier than most other methods.

>full 19" rack in the server room
A guy with a relay rack in the house can pick whatever cable he likes!
>(I do acknowledge you're correct, I just don't want to do it.)
No problem - if I already had a wiring plant like that, I'd likely pull Cat to the shop too.

I hear you - wireless works for me and appeals to my lazy side. Helps that I also take care of wireless at work (university - 50 nodes and climbing). I'd have a rack in the house too, but there is no real good place to put one. I take that back - there might be in the new *****. I'll have to measure the little alcove in there, I might just squeeze a wall rack in there...