Questions about Florida Heat Pump

[BlackLead]

As the title states. There is a 3 ton water cooled Florida Heat Pump model EM036 in the local classifieds. I am trying to determine whether or not such a thing would be useful in my garage, which is currently unfinished on the inside. My anticipation is that I will be insulating and drywalling, but that's yet to come. My original plan was to use butane heat and no A/C in the garage, but the more I get into it, the more I think it might be worthwhile to invest a bit more into the heat/cool system, but I don't want to go nuts financially.
The garage in question is 22x48 (1056 sq ft), utilizes 3 bays for garage and one for workspace. I live in the southern part of Mississippi, where the humidity is probably my biggest foe, and cold temps rarely get much below freezing. I know nothing about how this unit works, or if it would be suitable, but the price seems right ($300). So what would I be up against here? Obviously not as simple as my original plan. Ductwork installation costs would be added, and I'll have to make allowance for it in the electrical. Any insights to offer? ****** it up, or run far, far away? Thanks.

 

[redsky49]

This is a water source heat pump, a device that transfers heat to an open loop water system or lake water. Unless you have access to such it would have no value whatsoever to you.

These are typically installed in large commercial, residential. or institutional systems that utilize a cooling tower, supplemental boiler, piping loop, pumps, etc. This is not a residential unit. Sorry.

You should look for a small residential split system heat pump from vendors such as Carrier, Trane or York. With a garage as large as you mention, a simple duct system would provide better air distribution, minimizing cold/hot spots. Ductless split systems, though very popular, would not be the best choice for you on a performance and/or cost basis for such a large space.

With many contractors slowing down, you should get some very competitive bids for such a system, have a warranty up to 5 years or more, and be reasonably cost efficient in operation. Also, by maintaining a lower humidity level in your garage, you will reduce rust, mold/mildew and condensation and have a much more comfortable space in which to work.

Have the Contractor perform a load calculation for you. You should likely be in the 1-1/2 to 2 ton range for cooling. Don't buy more capacity than you need. Insulate per local code requirements.

Good luck with your project.

Offered only as opinion

 

[BlackLead]

This is exactly why I like this forum so much. Keeps uninformed folk like me from making ridiculous mistakes. You just saved me, at a minimum, $300. Thank you!

 

[Rigmaster]

A 3 ton system is a residential system, unless I'm missing something.


My father in law has one of these installed in his house, they are fairly popular and becoming more popular as the search for alternative energy grows.


Having said that, I would agree that it's probably not very practical to try to use this type of system for your garage, unless you have a water source nearby, and know how to properly hook it up to this system. The system at my father in law's house uses well water and just dumps the "used" water out on the ground after it's run through the heat pump coil. He does hook the discharge up to a sprinkler in the summer and has a VERY green and lush lawn all summer.




Google "geothermal heat pump" or "ground source heat pump" for about a million hits- but that's basically what a Florida heat pump is. Florida heat pump is simply a name brand of geothermal heat pump.

 

[redsky49]

The ill informed leading the uninformed. Sigh...

A 3 ton system is a residential system, unless I'm missing something.

A 3 ton system means that the nominal total cooling capacity is about 36,000 btuh. Has nothing to do with the application. Residential, commercial or industrial - 3 tons merely is a label for the size of the unit.

My father in law has one of these installed in his house, they are fairly popular and becoming more popular as the search for alternative energy grows.

Actually, as often as I would have liked to install one of these systems, the economics of the installation make geothermal systems cost prohibitive in almost any situation unless there are outside financial considerations such as utility company rebates or requirements for LEEP certification, etc. On one project I designed a system where a parking lot, that required excavation to install, was used for a piping system. Without that fortuitous break, there never would have been funds for the ground loop.

Having said that, I would agree that it's probably not very practical to try to use this type of system for your garage, unless you have a water source nearby, and know how to properly hook it up to this system. The system at my father in law's house uses well water and just dumps the "used" water out on the ground after it's run through the heat pump coil. He does hook the discharge up to a sprinkler in the summer and has a VERY green and lush lawn all summer.

Most jurisdictions will not allow a total loss cooling system as described above as they can actually disrupt underground aquifers. Also constant wet spots on the ground lead to insect and other problems, are prohibited by code, and should be avoided in any system. Instead, they (Geothermal Heat pumps) use a closed loop "condenser water" piping system that circulates the water thru a lengthy ground loop (hundreds, sometimes thousands of feet of piping buried below ground), or a well, or series of wells, that do not "waste" the cooling water, but merely circulate the heat transfer fluid thru a heat sink or heat exchange medium to return the heat back to the ground or aquifer or lake or whatever is used by the system.




Google "geothermal heat pump" or "ground source heat pump" for about a million hits- but that's basically what a Florida heat pump is. Florida heat pump is simply a name brand of geothermal heat pump.

Florida Heat Pump is a manufacturer, as is California Heat Pump, McQuay and others. They do indeed manufacture earth coupled or geothermal units but these are different from a water cooled heat pump as the original poster described the unit.

For proper operation in a commercial application, the individual water source heat pump units are supplied with a nominal 85 degree entering water temperature. Correction factors are utilized for differing entering water conditions, but as a rule don't go below 65 or so. At a minimum, an elaborate piping system including expansion tank, pump(s), control devices, etc. is employed. If the heat pumps are used for more than a minimal amount of heating, a boiler is required to supply heat into the system. All this is way over the top for a garage application.

For an actual GT or ground loop system, the indoor unit is configured to handle water temperatures as low as 40 degrees. The condenser water coil is configured differently and the controls are designed accordingly. Oftentimes this will make a heat pump usable in Minnesota in the winter time when an air-cooled unit would long before have gone into emergency heat mode.

I have left out or simplified a lot in this response (my apologies to the fellow engineers), but the point remains that trying to force a square peg into a round hole doesn't even come close to describing how you make this unit function for a garage HVAC system. Additionally, unless any HVAC equipment is virtually brand new, I always advise to replace with new. No contractor will warranty a relocated unit and the headaches involved are not worth the effort compared to the minimal savings involved.

Please re-read the original response posted to the questioner. That is the best advice.

My apologies for any hurt feelings, but we are all big boys here I think.

Offered only as opinion

 

[redsky49]

I really screwed up the format on the response above. Some of my answer is in the body of the quote, some appears below.
I'll do better next time.

 

[Rigmaster]

The ill informed leading the uninformed. Sigh...



Florida Heat Pump is a manufacturer, as is California Heat Pump, McQuay and others. They do indeed manufacture earth coupled or geothermal units but these are different from a water cooled heat pump as the original poster described the unit.

For proper operation in a commercial application, the individual water source heat pump units are supplied with a nominal 85 degree entering water temperature. Correction factors are utilized for differing entering water conditions, but as a rule don't go below 65 or so. At a minimum, an elaborate piping system including expansion tank, pump(s), control devices, etc. is employed. If the heat pumps are used for more than a minimal amount of heating, a boiler is required to supply heat into the system. All this is way over the top for a garage application.

For an actual GT or ground loop system, the indoor unit is configured to handle water temperatures as low as 40 degrees. The condenser water coil is configured differently and the controls are designed accordingly. Oftentimes this will make a heat pump usable in Minnesota in the winter time when an air-cooled unit would long before have gone into emergency heat mode.

I have left out or simplified a lot in this response (my apologies to the fellow engineers), but the point remains that trying to force a square peg into a round hole doesn't even come close to describing how you make this unit function for a garage HVAC system. Additionally, unless any HVAC equipment is virtually brand new, I always advise to replace with new. No contractor will warranty a relocated unit and the headaches involved are not worth the effort compared to the minimal savings involved.

Please re-read the original response posted to the questioner. That is the best advice.

My apologies for any hurt feelings, but we are all big boys here I think.

Offered only as opinion

OK, I may be ill informed, but I'm not uninformed.

You don't hurt my feelings, but I think you either didn't read/understand what I wrote, or you're trying to put words in my mouth (err, keyboard...).

Notice I never claimed he should buy it for garage use, in fact, I said I don't know how he could make it work without much PITA.

I know that Florida Heat pump is a manufacturer name, I tried (however poorly) to state that. Some people also have taken to use this a a catch-all name for residential geothermal heat pump systems.


Not trying to pick a fight, you seem to really know about these systems and I'd really like to know. Thanks!



BTW, I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of residential geothermal systems, at least the closed-loop type. We recently built a new house and I REALLY wanted to use such a system but in the end could not justify the cost premium- the time it took to pay for itself was just too long compared to the high efficiency electric heat pump we ended up using.

 

[redsky49]

Okay. Sounds good to me.

FYI, typically, any "enhanced" HVAC system has to provide a cost savings or other benefit, comensurate with the increased cost of installation. The rule of thumb is that if payback is not achieved by the 7th year, the system is not cost effective. There is a lot of economics involved in this, not just capitol costs versus operating costs.

Same with solar systems. When Colorado had a tax credit of up to $7,000, it was just possible to make a case for these systems. When the tax credit went away, so did new solar installations.

It will be interesting to see what tack the new administration takes regarding "energy independence". If tax credits are used to spur alternative HVAC systems, (as well as other electric household appliances), we may see a variety of new systems suitable for residential use. Items such as heat recovery on dishwashers and clothes dryers, natural gas powered air conditioning, low voltage energy storage systems for photovoltaics, thermal flywheels and other cutting edge devices.

In the meantime, geothermal will remain a viable alternative in those specific situations only where all the stars align properly. Or if you happen to own a bulldozer and like to push dirt around on the weekends (actual case of a doctor who owned a farm and liked play with construction equipment!)

Regards

Offered only as opinion

 

[sparky1562]

Actually, that unit can also be used in a geothermal application if it had that option. Nevertheless, where you are, I would go with dual fuel split system or package system. Will never pay back to go geothermal if the shop is the only thing on it. A conventional heat pump should work well for you, and you might not even need the gas if your winters are mild.