Replacing New Construction Windows Behind Brick

[RamMan4x4]

This is only partially related to my garage, but I'm sure some of you have gone through this before. Most of the details are below, but you can bypass the long winded version and skip straight to the question if you want.

I have a relatively new house (built in 2003) and this past week I discovered the windows on the 2nd floor above my bay window are allowing water to leak into the frame of the house. Luckily, the water is coming in between the brick front and the house wrap and hasn't from what I can tell come into contact with the OSB board. Unluckily, the leak was directly above my bay window as previously mentioned, so it destroyed all of the sheetrock and insulation on the bay ceiling. Picture below:

Through some tests, I figured out that the water is leaking through the window frame. The window has weep holes that allow water that runs down the window to go into the frame and is then supposed to exit via two lower weep holes...except the water just disappears and doesn't come out the weep holes.

The windows are MIWD brand 3500 series which actually just went through a class action settlement for this same problem. I can post links to this settlement if anyone is interested. I suspect the review process is going to take too long so I want to replace the windows before it does anymore damage and then worry about being reimbursed later.

Question:
The windows are new construction type which have a mounting fin so the nails/screws are installed from the outside directly to the wood framing of the window. This area is now covered up by brick so I'm guessing I have to cut the windows out from the inside?

Once I get the window out, what type should I get for the reinstall? New construction or replacement? The new construction would obviously require the nail fin to be removed, but that's easy with a utility knife and some flexing of the vinyl. There also appears to be some vinyl trim work between the window and the brick...

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Window from the inside...trim work removed. Size 36x60, frame opening 36.5x60.5

Lower portion of window exterior mated to brick:

Upper portion of window exterior mated to brick:

 

[RamMan4x4]

My current plan is to use an oscillating tool to cut the vinyl fin off the windows that need to be removed. If possible, I would like to leave the trim work where the window mates to the brick in place to help me re-position the new windows...but that may not be possible.

I also think a new construction type window might go in easier after I remove the nail fin, but then I'll have to secure the window by screwing through the vertical portion of the window frame into the wood jamb.

As far as the window goes, I don't want another weep type window frame. There seem to be plenty of options for vinyl windows with a built in window sill.

How far off am I? Even in the ballpark?

 

[fury9]

That trimwork is part of the window, it's not brick mould. Once you have the proper windows on hand, Score the caulk around the outside good, make sure you get the corners good. Now yo can go two ways from here (probably more). If it were me I would take the sashes out and cut the frame at the mid point being careful to not gouge the brick with the sawzall. Then I would rip the window out prying off the framing towards the inside. The nailing fin will break, or take the nails with it.

You could also sawzall the fin from the inside with a milwaukee torch blade, lwt the blade do the work and don't full bore with the speed, nice and smooth. the window should pull inwards but remember you'll be fighting the caulk so it might be tough.

 

[volleyball]

Either the windows got installed with the flange and the brick got laid over the top or you have fasteners going from the window frame into the bucks. I think I'd have someone with a hose outside wet the house and see where it is leaking. Maybe the windows, maybe not.
Have you found a new construction stock window that fits perfectly.

 

[RamMan4x4]

Thanks for the replies!

Fury9, I already considered the cutting an breaking removal process...I just didn't know how difficult it would be with the nail fin. Either way, removing the sashes is probably a good idea because I may have to do a bit of prying and sawing in several locations.

Volleyball, the windows were definitely installed with the nailing fin and then the brick was laid over top. I already did the hose test with my wife watching the exposed section in the bay window. The hose generated a leak in the ceiling of the bay window so I scaled the test down and used a jug to slowly pour water into the window sill. The water disappeared into the window sill and only a little came out the lower weep holes...but then it all disappeared with none overflowing onto the brick. This also resulted in a leak in the bay ceiling.

Concerning the replacement windows, I can get a replacement frame for about $180 which seems high relative to the cost of other complete windows and it would be the same weep type design which I would like to avoid. The replacement frame is also has a nail fin that would need to be removed...hence the need to screw into the surrounding window jamb. I guess that's not really an issue, but the window wasn't designed for that type of install.

I've never installed a replacement window. From what I can tell they are designed to be installed over existing window frames and appear to be primarily for updating older homes. I could probably make it work in this application, but I don't know if they are designed to be installed into the opening of what will be like new construction once I remove the original window.

 

[volleyball]

You can take a new construction window and remove the nailing flange. a lot of times they just fit into a slot. You then install them like you would a door with shims on the sides, top and bottom.
I would be looking at windows that cost more than $180. That seems cheap. Caulking and flashing the new window is critical.

 

[pstnbly]

That trimwork is part of the window, it's not brick mould. Once you have the proper windows on hand, Score the caulk around the outside good, make sure you get the corners good. Now yo can go two ways from here (probably more). If it were me I would take the sashes out and cut the frame at the mid point being careful to not gouge the brick with the sawzall. Then I would rip the window out prying off the framing towards the inside. The nailing fin will break, or take the nails with it.

You could also sawzall the fin from the inside with a milwaukee torch blade, lwt the blade do the work and don't full bore with the speed, nice and smooth. the window should pull inwards but remember you'll be fighting the caulk so it might be tough.

This

 

[dodgejunkie]

We bought a newly constructed house in 2002 and had this exact problem! I made the builder take the windows out completely and replace them as new construction! Brick and hardy plank was all removed to do this right! You couldn't imagine how ****** the work was once everything was exposed! After all this it still didn't work! After another attempt with no luck I finally made the builder buy the damn house back!

 

[DC73]

That trimwork is part of the window, it's not brick mould. Once you have the proper windows on hand, Score the caulk around the outside good, make sure you get the corners good. Now yo can go two ways from here (probably more). If it were me I would take the sashes out and cut the frame at the mid point being careful to not gouge the brick with the sawzall. Then I would rip the window out prying off the framing towards the inside. The nailing fin will break, or take the nails with it.

I had the windows replaced in the brick house I moved to last year. This is how the installer removed the old windows.

You then install them like you would a door with shims on the sides, top and bottom.

And this is how he installed the new vinyl windows (Simonton).

Good luck.

DC

 

[RamMan4x4]

Thanks guys! I think I'll go with fury9's cut in the middle and pry method of removing the old window.

I spent an hour or so with the windows guy at Lowes today...I don't usually talk to anyone with much experience there, but this guy had a lot of knowledge. I ended up ordering replacement type windows instead of new construction type in a 30x60 size. Once I get the window positioned, I'll have to come back with brick mold or vinyl trim to fit the window to the brick frame, but that should be easy enough.

The only downside is the lead time for the windows is 35days...so I've got some time to finish removing the trim and jamb extension off the second window. For now, I used some silicone to fill in the weep hole inlets in the leaking window. It's worked for several heavy rains, so it should be OK for the next 35 days or so...

I'll post some pictures of the removal and install once I get it complete.

 

[65cayne]

This is only partially related to my garage, but I'm sure some of you have gone through this before. Most of the details are below, but you can bypass the long winded version and skip straight to the question if you want...

RamMan,
I feel your frustration here. My wife and I had a house built in 2009 and the builder really trimmed the budget using inferior windows. Ours are also nailed to the OSB under a brick veneer so I am interested to see how this goes for you. Best of luck.

-Kevin

 

[Falcon67]

The way we took out out windows from behind the brick was to cut the caulk perimeter, remove the two large panes using a heat gun, then cut the lower sash down to the brick. Then you pry up one side of the lower frame, latch on to the frame with big locking pliers and just rip it out of the house. The nailing flange either tears or it brings a bit of the 1x4 backer with it. You should not go back with a modified builder window - you will need a window speced specifically for the hole in the brick. They should fit with maybe 1/8" clearance. Measure ACCURATELY or THEY WONT FIT. Using your existing window size will NOT WORK. Replacements also come with a top trim that is adjustable to seal the upper section to the brick. I have photos but not sure were they may be right now. Replacements are thicker than builder windows, they are then secured to the inner house framing through the window frame with long screws and caulked inside and out. They will fill the gap between the inside and the exterior brick, so you caulk outside to the brick. Depending on the inside trim, the new window should sit flush to the sheet rock and possibly the sill. I had to build/ modify two of the sills in this house, both on very large - double - windows.

 

[Falcon67]

T
I spent an hour or so with the windows guy at Lowes today...I don't usually talk to anyone with much experience there, but this guy had a lot of knowledge. I ended up ordering replacement type windows instead of new construction type in a 30x60 size. Once I get the window positioned, I'll have to come back with brick mold or vinyl trim to fit the window to the brick frame, but that should be easy enough.

IMMO your Lowes guy is an idiot if he let you order replacement windows without having them measured. The windows FIT to the brick, you don't trim them.

 

[RamMan4x4]

IMMO your Lowes guy is an idiot if he let you order replacement windows without having them measured. The windows FIT to the brick, you don't trim them.

I should have included my measurements in the original post...

The wood frame for the window opening measures 30.5in wide x 60.5in tall. The opening of the brick is 31.25in wide x 61.5in tall. The problem with fitting the window to the brick is that it would no longer fit inside the wood frame. I probably could have ordered a window that was an extra 0.25in wide and tall, but I still need room to get the window level in the frame.

What I have ordered should work...but due to the brick having a larger opening than the wood frame, I'm going to have to install some exterior vinyl trim to close up the gaps. As you said earlier, the window comes with upper section of trim and it also comes with a small clip on section for the bottom. I'm not sure if I will use either or just make my own out of vinyl...I'll figure that out once I get the existing window removed.