Rust-Oleum epoxy disappointing

[cylidge]

I am hoping for some advice on my situation. I applied Rust-Oleum epoxy shield professional (solvent base) to my shop floor with unsatisfactory results.
Some history;
I am in So California. The concrete was poured 2/07. It has had nothing on it other than people during construction. It is a 12 x 20 work shop and I felt acid washing was going to be a problem rinsing it clean since the only door exits into another room. Instead I used a diamond grinder to “scuff the surface” then thoroughly vacuumed and mopped all the dust.
I followed the directions exactly on mixing and the 1 hour wait time on the epoxy. The epoxy was applied from a pan with a 9”, ¼” nap adhesive roller. The floor temp was 63 degrees when applied but dropped after application to 52 since I had to remove the heater (sitting on floor) from the room. It took 1 hour to apply the epoxy. After 12 hours I took a peek and the floor looked like I had just rolled it, the epoxy never flowed out, it had the same roller texture and lap marks from when I finished. There were no air bubbles just a very bumpy texture.
I called Rust-Oleum and they said at first that it was too cold then recanted and said it should have worked and to buy some more and send them the receipt and they would reimburse me, (good customer service). I had to rent a floor buffer with sandpaper attachment and 36 grit paper to sand it down to flat $80.00. I didn’t ask if they would reimburse that.
For the second coat I hung the heater from the ceiling so it could stay in the room during the cure and added another in the window heating fresh air to create some ventilation. I ran these 24 / 7 for 3 days prior to application. The daytime temp was floor 73 walls 82. On this application I cut in the edges with a brush then I poured small 3’ x4’ areas directly onto the floor and rolled them out with a 9”, 3/8 nap Purdy roller leaving a wet edge to the next area. Total application time 50 minutes. This time after 24 hours the roller overlap marks were still visible and there was still texture. Not as much as the first time but not smooth like I had expected.
It has been a week now and I can’t get used to the look and am considering sanding it again, any advice would be appreciated.

 

[JD in DFW]

Yes...hire a professional garage floor applicator that uses industrial grade coatings and knows what he is doing.....DIY= $$$$ in the long run.

Sorry you had to go through what you did. Hope you do get the floor you desire in the end. I would bet if you called around to a few of the independent garage outfitters they would cut you a deal to help you out. Stay away from the guys using epoxies or other cheap coatings...go with a polyurea or other high grade coating...will it cost you more..yes, but it will only need to be done once.
Steer clear of the large franchise guys...most have no clue what their doing, nor have spent the time to research and learn the processes....

Good Luck.

 

[SC-Eric]

I disagree with JD in DFW...

Here is why I disagree: While there are some decent polyurea formulations... there are WAY more bad formulations than good ones. So, what is the chance that the guys you hire are going to have one of the good ones?

JD... I love to hear your perspective on epoxies

I would recommend that you use products that are free from water or solvent. While there are 100% solids Polyureas, Polyaspartics, and even Polyurethanes, I think that 100% solids epoxies are the best value for the money. In addition, 100% solids epoxies are more forgiving than the others during application in general. That means that whoever applies it is going to have a greater chance of success.

Now, obviously you're in a predicament. No manufacturer is going to guarantee their products when applied over someone elses. Also, I'm not convinced we have enough information from you to diagnose the problem. Let's face it, if you want to fix the problem you need to know what it is. Has the coating B-Staged? Does it have adhesion? Did it blush? Do you know if this problem has hurt the longevity or integrity of the coating? In other words, you don't want to coat over it if it has lousy adhesion. Otherwise the quality coating you apply over it will just delaminate when the Rustolecrap comes off.

So, here are some questions to answer:
1) What part of So Cal do you live in?
2) Was there a vapor barrier put into place when the concrete was poured?
3) What kind of diamond grinder did you use?
4) What kid of vacuum did you use?
5) What did you mop with?
6) What rustoleum products did you use (exactly) and how much of each product? Primer? Topcoat? etc..
7) How did you mix the products?
8) When did you do each step? dates? Times?
9) What kind of heater did you use?
10) How much time inbetween the first attempt and the second attempt?

There will probably be some follow up questions once you answer all of these...

 

[thegarageguy]

although I agree with JD, I think since your allready knee deep in your own floor, I suggest you take care of it yourself. Like Wolvering said, no fair minded applicator would apply there own system over something they cant guarantee. And If they would want to, then they are swindlers.

It seems to me like your having a newbie applicator problem. To me it seems like you are using a regular roller and its delaminating on you while applicating.

1. Buy yourself the expensive non delaminating rollers used for epoxies and mastics.
2. sand it back down to smooth back out and buy yourself a foam squeegee to spread with. use the non delaminating roller(while wet) to back roll, this should give you a baby **** smooth finish.

now remember, if you mix your epoxies for too long or too fast, this could speed up your cure time and make you leave roller lines.

what we do for a solid system is after the base coat, the next day,we then sand it, then spread the poly with texture. We use texture from sherwin williams called "shark grit" it gives a great texture while not killing the high shine. good luck.

 

[cylidge]

Thanks for the replies;

JD,
thanks for the input

Wolverine,
1) San Bernardino
2) Yes there was a vapor barrier
3) I used a hex plate and 9” diamond swirl grinder
4) shop vac (dry) with squeegee attachment
5) hands & knees with a wet sponge until no residue
6) explained in the first post Rust-Oleum epoxy shield professional (solvent base) 1 gallon each part = 2 gallons total there was no primer or top coat recommended
7) drill powered mixer low RPM (no air mixed in)
8) 1st application 1/19/08 11:00 AM sanded on 1/23/08 2nd application 1/24/08 3:00 PM
9) electric heaters
10) 4 days 5 hours

thegarageguy,
What is a non delaminating roller? Neither time did the roller leave nap in the floor if that is what you are meaning? Where would I go to find the foam squeegee and the proper roller? Have you ever heard of adding reducer to cause the epoxy to flow better?

 

[nissan_crawler]

I would have to guess bad prep. I put the plain jane lowes rustoleum epoxy on my garage floor 5 years ago and it's just fine.

Your cleaning sounds incredibly sub par, also. I spent 13 hours with a pressure washer, 6 gallons of purple power, 2 boxes of tsp, and then acid to clean mine.

I would think you should use a roller with finer nap than 3/8", that seems like a lot to me.

I would try 2 thinner coats, and not pouring it on, maybe.

 

[FL_Javelin]

I used Rustuleum Pro too, mine looks great, couldnt be happier. I did most of what you did, no acid, I used a diamond grinder. I did spend a full day mopping and cleaning out all the dust. 2 caots, about 20 hours apart

The biggest difference was my floor temp was much higher, I'd estimate in the 80s. I used chips. 2 coats are mandatory. Very few lap marks only if you really look. I used 3/8" nap. I put it on as thich as the nap would allow.

I will say after the first coat the looks were very disappointing but based on research here I knew I had to do 2, the second coat covered so much better. See link below for more details.

PS If I remember correctly, 2nd coat had to be within 24 hours

 

[thegarageguy]

The epoxy was applied from a pan with a 9”, ¼” nap adhesive roller.

best results are from 3/8" non delaminating.

The floor temp was 63 degrees when applied but dropped after application to 52

That is still good temp. surface temp will allways be higher than ambient temp.

it had the same roller texture and lap marks from when I finished. There were no air bubbles just a very bumpy texture.

this is probably because you roll it on and you probably rolled it back and forth too much. What I do is spread with a foam squeegee and just use the roller to back roll. Ive been doing this for almost 5 years and it will still look flawed. This is why I lightly sand it and use a textured poly and it comes out flawless.

This time after 24 hours the roller overlap marks were still visible and there was still texture. Not as much as the first time but not smooth like I had expected.

Again, this is because your rolling it on. When you roll a system on, your spread rate is about 275 to 400 sqft per gallon. Your spreading paper thin. This is why your unable to hide your past roller marks or inconsistancies. When I spread my base coats, it is from 100 to 150 sqft. Us pros use about 3 times the amount of material. This is why we charge more and why some of us give a 10 yr guarantee.

It has been a week now and I can’t get used to the look and am considering sanding it again, any advice would be appreciated.

1. Lightly sand it and use a poly with shark grit or....

2. use some flake spec to camoflage your inconsitancies or...

3. resand and do another epoxy coat, go a little thicker by using foam squeegee and use the roller just to back roll. remember to use squeegee left to right, then (wet)roller, lightly front to back. allways do them in opposite to eliminate any lines. never pour and spread too much where you wont be able to reach your back rolling.


good luck!

 

[cylidge]

I don’t agree with the bad prep because I am very meticulous with things and did a complete job grinding and cleaning. Before the application there was NO dust when I wiped a finger across the floor. Additionally if my problem was delaminating, fish eye, or some other problem relating to the bond I would agree. The second coat was put down over the sanded first coat as suggested by the Rust-Oleum rep.

Fl Javelin,
Yours looks very good, actually reading about yours is what inspired me. What brand / width roller did you use? Did you work out of a paint pan or pour on the floor? Did you have to work fast?

 

[cylidge]

thegarageguy,
Thanks for the advice,
I had felt the chips would hide some of the flaws but intentionally left them out since the nature of the work I will do in the shop will involve small parts that would be easier to find on a solid color floor,

I understand the technique of using the squeegee one direction and the roller the other. My floor is 12’ x 20’ the only exit is a walk door on the 12’ end. I am trying to envision how to work sideways with the squeegee without stepping in the epoxy.

 

[awakeinAZ]

I contracted a Rust Oleum installer through Home Depot. They did the sanding with a diamond blade sander and used a 18" roller. 100% solvent with Poly mixed in. Temp was 75-85. Of course, he has installed a BUNCH of epoxy floors. When I talked to him they were doing 3-4 a week. You could tell by his equipment. He spent more time fixing his roller with duct tape and bailing wire then rolling. None of his stuff was shiney new. I did not stand by him during the install due to fumes but, he seemed to pour the epoxy right on the floor (thick coat) from the bucket. He then rollered it out in squares. Once it was down he did not re- roll over it. No post install issues but, on occasion when the garage has been closed all day you can still smell a tiny bit of Poly when I pull in from work. It was poured on Nov 18th. There is lots of advice and experience here but Wolverine has not steered anyone wrong.

 

[FL_Javelin]

Fl Javelin,
Yours looks very good, actually reading about yours is what inspired me. What brand / width roller did you use? Did you work out of a paint pan or pour on the floor? Did you have to work fast?

Thanks. I bought my rollers from Home Depot, not the cheapest but not the most expensive, dont remember the brand, I didnt put much thought in roller quality, standard width, 8" I think. I used a 5 gal bucket that I power mixed it in following instructions as closely as possible. I put a roller grid in it, the type that hangs on the edge, didnt squigee it out much, kept it thick on roller and rolled it just enough to cover not rerolling over it if at all. I only poured it out when bucket was near empty but as I said, I kept it thick. I had to work fairly fast since it was fairly hot here in Fla but never felt I was rushed.

Hope it works out for you.

 

[sammerdog]

Awakeinaz - good looking floor.

 

[awakeinAZ]

Sammerdog - Thanks!!!

 

[04 Navi]

18" rollers work the best, because less overlapping is always better. I got mine from Sherwin Williams. If I remember they were the ones that could be used with solvent.

 

[awakeinAZ]

cylidge - Any news on your decision to do it over?

 

[Floorguy]

I'll put me $.02 worth. I agree with Wolverine in that 100% solid epoxy is the best product to use for garage floors. Top it with a quality urethane and you have a great floor. My guess for the textured look on the floor is that you did not put down enogh of a coat to allow it to flow. If it was a thin coat then it will not flow out properly.

For a first or primer coat I would put down about 1.5 gallons. A lot will depend on the porisity of the concrete. For the second coat I would put down around a gallon. This is based on a 240 sq. ft. shop that you mentioned.

Just my humble opinion.

It could be old product also. Don't really like that line or the guys that put it down much.

 

[thegarageguy]

Hey floorguy, Am I reading that right....your primer coat is thicker than your base coat?

I allways found that some slabs **** in more product than others and in different locations therefore leavind an uneven look. my primer spread rate is about 300 sq ft per gallon and base about 150. It seems opposite of yours. Is there a reason to go heavier on your primer?

Btw, not trying to bust your balls, just curious of your technique and reasoning behind it.

 

[Floorguy]

The reason is that the concrete absorbs some of the primer (to get the bond) so, to get a good amount on top we put it on pretty heavy. I shotblast all my floors, which leaves a heavy texture, which means more surface area to cover. which requires more primer.

I'll take all the feedback that comes along. My true test is are my customers happy with their floors. Answer, YES. That is what matters in my book.

There are a ton of different products, a ton of techniques, and a ton of different concrete compositions. If you find something that works well, my theory is to stay with it. If you have a problem, then it is time to change. I am not saying mine is the only way to do it. I am saying that it works well for me. Different products require different application methods and amounts. I do a high build floor of 4 coats, most others want to get away with one or two. To each there own is my thought.

Kinda glad we all don't do it the same. Makes life a little more interesting that way

Take Care,

floorguy

 

[cylidge]

I have been away on business so nothing has been done to the floor. After reading all the responses and suggestions I have decided on this approach. I will sand the floor flat removing all the epoxy texture, roller marks, etc. I have made a “notched” squeegee out of a 18” solid rubber squeegee, the “notches are ½ of a 1/8” diameter spaced 1/8” on center. I will squeegee out the epoxy going left to right then as suggested only back roll front to rear. I am trying to avoid topping it with a clear coat since this is a work shop and I was trying to keep it simple, guess that didn’t work.

Last week I emailed the receipt for the epoxy and added the sander and paper rental and today received a check from Rust-Oleum. I can’t say I am too excited about their product ….yet, but the customer service is top notch.