Scope of work wording

[boston813]

I'm in the process of buying a "new to us" house and while the seller has agreed to fix the electrical issues we could not come together on a price to fix the electrical. The house is standard 1920's knob and tube wiring but the main fuse panel has been updated to circuit breakers. We are both going to call "our" electricians and split the quotes. because of this I want to make sure they are working off the same scope of work.

I'm looking for removal of the secondary fuse panel that is dangerously overloaded and have all circuits in the house run through the main breaker panel. I'm also looking for all outlets on the first and second floor to be grounded. Is it worth requesting that they be rewired from the breaker box? Are there any electricians that would go through the hassle of running a ground wire only? There are also a few rooms that used to be a porch but were closed in that do not have an outlet every 12 feet as is required by code.

 

[Mustang51js]

If your replacing the knob and tubing then they would be running new wires to the outlets. And you don't have to add outlets if you don't want to.

 

[noslin]

lay out exactly what you want, what standards these items should meet, time frame to for work to be completed, dont leave anything to be assumed.

 

[Jeep51]

Also keep in mind that what you are asking is a huge undertaking! The knob and tube system was based off a very small fuse box. Usually only 100 amp or less! The codes were very different back then. One fuse usually protected about 80% of the outlets in the house. In order to install the electrical the way you want it, you will need to bring the entire house up to code. You will more than likely have to knock holes in multiple locations not only in the walls but the ceilings too! You are talking several thousands of dollars!!!

 

[Speedy Petey]

I'm in the process of buying a "new to us" house and while the seller has agreed to fix the electrical issues we could not come together on a price to fix the electrical. The house is standard 1920's knob and tube wiring but the main fuse panel has been updated to circuit breakers. We are both going to call "our" electricians and split the quotes. because of this I want to make sure they are working off the same scope of work.

I'm looking for removal of the secondary fuse panel that is dangerously overloaded and have all circuits in the house run through the main breaker panel. I'm also looking for all outlets on the first and second floor to be grounded. Is it worth requesting that they be rewired from the breaker box? Are there any electricians that would go through the hassle of running a ground wire only? There are also a few rooms that used to be a porch but were closed in that do not have an outlet every 12 feet as is required by code.

I don't get what the seller has to do with this.
Buy the house, have the upgrade you want done.
Why are you forcing the seller to pay for some of your upgrades???

 

[Morrison]

You get the seller to upgrade it because you can. All part of the negotiating.

 

[Higgins]

The FIL just had their ranch house in Cleveland upgraded from K/T to a new electrical panel, new sockets, meter base, etc. Total cost was $12,000 and 3 weeks of work!

 

[Speedy Petey]

You get the seller to upgrade it because you can. All part of the negotiating.

It's ******** extortion.
What ever happened to
"I like the house. You're asking $220,000, I'll give you $180,000.
We'll take $200,000.
Deal."

Now it's "I'll give you $180, but I want a new furnace, new roof, and a 200A service upgrade."

It's not a profoundly buyer's market any more. I think some folks are either gonna see prices go way up to compensate for this, or they'll be disappointed when they are told "Nope. You can do that after you move in."

 

[Morrison]

It's not ********. If the sellers don't like the terms decline the offer.

 

[rockwithjason]

It's ******** extortion.
What ever happened to
"I like the house. You're asking $220,000, I'll give you $180,000.
We'll take $200,000.
Deal."

Now it's "I'll give you $180, but I want a new furnace, new roof, and a 200A service upgrade."

It's not a profoundly buyer's market any more. I think some folks are either gonna see prices go way up to compensate for this, or they'll be disappointed when they are told "Nope. You can do that after you move in."

it doesn't matter what we think, that is the deal on the table and they have agreed to it.

this is a huge undertaking. ALL of the knob and tube should be replaced by romex or pipe and wire as your local codes require. you can run a new sub panel if you like or pull all of the circuits back to a main. the important part is that the main is sized correctly for the load you plan to hang on it. i would be shocked if it costs less than 14 or 15k and takes less than several weeks to do that amount of work, not to mention patching walls and such that will come with the work. you are basically rewiring the entire house.

 

[jlckmj]

I am in the process of doing that right now with my son. He bought a 1910 Victorian that was almost entirely knob and tube. Like said above, it is a huge job. At this point we are about 5 days into the job and that is with 2 people doing it. Granted, we are not professionals, but my son has worked for an electrician doing this exact work before, and I am a pretty good helper so we are not far behind what it would take for them to to do it, maybe just a little slower.

There are no less than 100 holes in the ceiling and walls on the first floor in order to fish wires to ceiling lights, and outlets on the second floor. It is the only way to do it properly. He will have to put new drywall on the entire first floor of the home to cover the holes, no way around it.

Above the second floor he was lucky to have a stand up attic with a wood floor. The floor also had to be cut up to get to the ceiling lights on the second floor and route the wire through the joists. The top plates of the interior walls have to be located and drilled in order to drop wires to the switches.

Over the years there has probably been splices onto the K&T so there is no way to guarantee that the knob and tube has been eliminated other than removing ALL of the old wiring and hooking ONLY new wiring up to the new load center. The only way to get to the true scope of this work is to have an electrician that normally does this type of work bid the job and spell it out for you.

Good luck, Jim

 

[boston813]

Also keep in mind that what you are asking is a huge undertaking! The knob and tube system was based off a very small fuse box. Usually only 100 amp or less! The codes were very different back then. One fuse usually protected about 80% of the outlets in the house. In order to install the electrical the way you want it, you will need to bring the entire house up to code. You will more than likely have to knock holes in multiple locations not only in the walls but the ceilings too! You are talking several thousands of dollars!!!

This is not my first round with knob and tube wiring and as long as it is in good shape I don't really have an issue with it as long as the upgrades are done correctly. I'm fully expecting to spend many hours patching holes and painting after all this is over with. My issue is with ungrounded 3 prong outlets and fuses that may or may not be connected to the main breaker box.

 

[boston813]

It's ******** extortion.
What ever happened to
"I like the house. You're asking $220,000, I'll give you $180,000.
We'll take $200,000.
Deal."

Now it's "I'll give you $180, but I want a new furnace, new roof, and a 200A service upgrade."

It's not a profoundly buyer's market any more. I think some folks are either gonna see prices go way up to compensate for this, or they'll be disappointed when they are told "Nope. You can do that after you move in."

wow, way to make an uninformed assumption.

I understand that you don't know the back story so I can only assume that you have something in your past that has tainted your take on this.

The way this came about was during our very first discussion after we looked at the house the seller and I agreed that we would pay the full asking price as long as the fuses and knob and tube had just been abandoned in place and everything was running through the new 200A breaker box. After the home inspection we found that was not the case and the owner has been a truly upstanding individual about all of this and I fully expect that we will come to an agreement that we are both happy with.

 

[sberry]

I say knock some off the price and do what you want, if it was old would go around all of it with new and pull in new circuits as needed. I love the father and son approach in one of the posts above. Go right to it and not fuk around with other people.

 

[Mustang51js]

This is not my first round with knob and tube wiring and as long as it is in good shape I don't really have an issue with it as long as the upgrades are done correctly. I'm fully expecting to spend many hours patching holes and painting after all this is over with. My issue is with ungrounded 3 prong outlets and fuses that may or may not be connected to the main breaker box.

Have you opened up any of the ungrounded outlet,you may have knob and tubing going to them. You could also have romex with or without the ground cut off which I've seen plenty of times. You could leave the old outlets as 2 prong and just add outlets where you want them with new wire. If the outlets are knob and tubing you would be replacing wire anyway so not much to worry about. It's also possible that there is a ground and just not hooked up to the outlets

 

[Speedy Petey]

wow, way to make an uninformed assumption.

I understand that you don't know the back story so I can only assume that you have something in your past that has tainted your take on this.

No, not at all on either point.

I was more referring in general than to your specific situation.
I work for, and know, a lot of real estate agents and have seen many transactions in my day. I have also seen the change in how things go down.

 

[Dragster Racer]

No, not at all on either point.

I was more referring in general than to your specific situation.
I work for, and know, a lot of real estate agents and have seen many transactions in my day. I have also seen the change in how things go down.

Money is money. What's the difference? How did it become extortion? It could be a way of reducing or at least splitting risk. If things go goofy and it ends up being way more expensive than his contractor estimated, he may have grounds for some compensation. If the seller wants no part of it, then he has every right to turn down the deal and counter with one of his own if he likes. It is a business transaction, and certainly does not have to be emotional.

 

[tjpavlov]

If a house has knob and tube doesn't that mean that they almost assuredly have no wall insulation? You may want to budget for that too.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

This is not my first round with knob and tube wiring and as long as it is in good shape I don't really have an issue with it as long as the upgrades are done correctly. I'm fully expecting to spend many hours patching holes and painting after all this is over with. My issue is with ungrounded 3 prong outlets and fuses that may or may not be connected to the main breaker box.

Not sure quite what you mean. You say you don't have an issue with K&T but only as long as the upgrades are done. The only upgrade I can see with K&T is to do away with it. In most houses, a ground is not needed nor used in 90% of the devices in the house. Kitchen would be an exception. I am hard pressed to find any devices with three prongs except this desktop computer and the printer. Lamps, fans, vacuum cleaner, electric razor, "wall warts", toasters, my TV, stereo, etc are all two prong. If the grounds are the issue, just change out the receptacles and put two prong receptacles in, they are still readily available in Home Depot, etc.

Charles

 

[Tyberius]

My insurance company will not insure knob and tube. Meaning that if they find knob and tube in the burnt debris from the inevitable house fire: they will not pay out.

For a rent house I had, I had to use a different insurance provider.

Something to consider and ask your insurance provider.

 

[Zeke]

" Are there any electricians that would go through the hassle of running a ground wire only?"

AFAK, you can't run a separate ground to an outlet. You either rewire the whole circuit or not.