Terminating aluminum conductors

[Joemctag]

Got some advice here last fall and now need to know:
Hooking up a used mobile home. Its panel (inside) will become a sub-panel; running MHF from a panel in a nearby shop that has a meter (its own service). I think I want to put a disconnect about a foot or so outside the mobile home (actually required here: 2022 NEC) on a nice sturdy 2 4x4 posts and unistrut. I’m using the old cables and conduit they had goin outside to their meter panel at the same location. Removed them to move trailer.
My question is about terminating the old ends. It’s USE-2 4/0, 4/0, 2/0, 4. Is it best to cut off the last inch or two, so if got good aluminum, then put on the anti-oxidant compound? The aluminum APPEARS clean.
Also, I haven’t got my MHF yet. Need 110’. Is online, by-foot the cheapest? Haven’t decide on that size yet.

 

[pattenp]

It's best to terminate clean new aluminum, so cutting off a couple inches for fresh ends is good. The antioxidant is good practice, but is only required if wire manufacturer states to use it.

 

[Norcal]

Got some advice here last fall and now need to know:
Hooking up a used mobile home. Its panel (inside) will become a sub-panel; running MHF from a panel in a nearby shop that has a meter (its own service). I think I want to put a disconnect about a foot or so outside the mobile home (actually required here: 2022 NEC) on a nice sturdy 2 4x4 posts and unistrut. I’m using the old cables and conduit they had goin outside to their meter panel at the same location. Removed them to move trailer.
My question is about terminating the old ends. It’s USE-2 4/0, 4/0, 2/0, 4. Is it best to cut off the last inch or two, so if got good aluminum, then put on the anti-oxidant compound? The aluminum APPEARS clean.
Also, I haven’t got my MHF yet. Need 110’. Is online, by-foot the cherangesapest? Haven’t decide on that size yet.

Mobile home panels were always wired as a subpanel, if it was not somebody screwed up royally.

 

[Joemctag]

Mobile home panels were always wired as a subpanel, if it was not somebody screwed up royally.

I guess it was originally. Just outside was a pretty big panel with a meter and some breakers. From there, cables went under and up into the panel inside.

 

[Norcal]

I guess it was originally. Just outside was a pretty big panel with a meter and some breakers. FThe rom there, cables went under and up into the panel inside.

The inside panel is always wired as a sub, the outside panel if a meter main, is only suitable as service equipment because the neutral is factory bonded to the enclosure.

 

[rlitman]

It's best to terminate clean new aluminum, so cutting off a couple inches for fresh ends is good. The antioxidant is good practice, but is only required if wire manufacturer OR AHJ states to use it.

FIFY. Anyway, even if not required, it's still good practice to wire brush aluminum and apply Noalox.

 

[Kaleb]

Also, I haven’t got my MHF yet. Need 110’. Is online, by-foot the cheapest? Haven’t decide on that size yet.

The cheapest place in the universe to buy MHF (for us as individual consumers) is Nassau National Cable. I just installed some cable I purchased from them in the last month and I was satisfied with everything.

 

[Joemctag]

The cheapest place in the universe to buy MHF (for us as individual consumers) is Nassau National Cable. I just installed some cable I purchased from them in the last month and I was satisfied with everything.

Thanks. I’ll be buying from them soon. Think I want 2-2-2-4.

 

[Joemctag]

By my 2-2-2-4 MHF and my 90 amp breaker for where it leaves the main panel. I’m seeing that PO had some ground to neutral bar and some neutrals to ground bar. Also seeing that I’ll need to get two lugs to fit those bars to accept the 2awg neutral and the 4awg ground. It’s a QO panel. Guess I’ll try HD or an el ctical supply house.

 

[nadogail]

Copious amounts of No Alox (sp?) is my go to.

 

[toplessHO]

It's best to terminate clean new aluminum, so cutting off a couple inches for fresh ends is good. The antioxidant is good practice, but is only required if wire manufacturer states to use it.

WHY would anyone terminate aluminum without using No-Ox,required or not.

 

[mike93lx]

WHY would anyone terminate aluminum without using No-Ox,required or not.

Because it isn't needed?

 

[toplessHO]

Because it isn't needed?

socks arent required with loafers but I still wear them.
Comon guys take some pride in your workmanship.
If you dont like getting the grey or black hosepucky on you then use the amber stuff.
Even with the horsepucky you can use the applicator tip to prevent a mess.
Trim the ends of tip for larger wires and keep a couple sizes handy.

 

[mike93lx]

socks arent required with loafers but I still wear them.
Comon guys take some pride in your workmanship.
If you dont like getting the grey or black hosepucky on you then use the amber stuff.
Even with the horsepucky you can use the applicator tip to prevent a mess.
Trim the ends of tip for larger wires and keep a couple sizes handy.

No one is telling you not to use it. Just like you can change your oil every 3k. It's wasting money and effort, but they are your's to do with as you please.

Skipping something unnecessary is not caring about your work

I'll stick with what's required by code and recommended by the manufacturers. I have noalox in my box, but it hasn't been touched in a long time

 

[toplessHO]

No one is telling you not to use it. Just like you can change your oil every 3k. It's wasting money and effort, but they are your's to do with as you please.

Skipping something unnecessary is not caring about your work

I'll stick with what's required by code and recommended by the manufacturers. I have noalox in my box, but it hasn't been touched in a long time

SMH
good advise for all the young pups out there
Times have changed and not necessarily for the better.
I guess Ive been spoiled working in Government and High Value jobs my entire life,
that have engineers requiring such steps toward a better product.

 

[mike93lx]

SMH
good advise for all the young pups out there
Times have changed and not necessarily for the better.
I guess Ive been spoiled working in Government and High Value jobs my entire life,
that have engineers requiring such steps toward a better product.

Ok

 

[pattenp]

WHY would anyone terminate aluminum without using No-Ox,required or not.

Since 1983, AA-8000 aluminium wire has been required and does not need antioxidant paste. If using antioxidant paste makes you feel all warm and fuzzy continue to do so. I even stated is was good practice to use antioxidant paste, but I'm somewhat antiquated too.

 

[toplessHO]

Since 1983, AA-8000 aluminium wire has been required and does not need antioxidant paste. If using antioxidant paste makes you feel all warm and fuzzy continue to do so. I even stated is was good practice to use antioxidant paste, but I'm somewhat antiquated too.

so do you use no oxide on your terminations?

Heres a good example of what happens without no ox
Thats a Buchanan connector not a wire nut. It looks like a single crimp was used
vs the Buchanan tool that crimps from 4 sides. This may have been part of the issue
but Im sure no ox would have helped.
Once the least bit of corrosion starts combined with heat
via conductor load everything snowballs.

 

[mike93lx]

so do you use no oxide on your terminations?

Heres a good example of what happens without no ox
Thats a Buchanan connector not a wire nut. It looks like a single crimp was used
vs the Buchanan tool that crimps from 4 sides. This may have been part of the issue
but Im sure no ox would have helped.
Once the least bit of corrosion starts combined with heat
via conductor load everything snowballs.

That's branch circuit wiring and not anything that people are using in new installs.

If you have been talking about old stuff all along, we have been on different pages.

I don't use noalox on new wire because it is not required. That old junk? Yes, I would use it, but only if I couldn't rip it all out

 

[toplessHO]

That's branch circuit wiring and not anything that people are using in new installs.

If you have been talking about old stuff all along, we have been on different pages

I can understand your reluctance if youve never seen the results of corrosion in aluminum wiring.
I for one take the extra time to use no ox be it #12 or 750mcm.
Terminations come pre buttered with it so there has to be some merit to it.
And I would ask. If you reterminated that neutral would you have cut out the bad part,twisted the wires
back together and put a wirenut on it calling it good?

 

[mike93lx]

I can understand your reluctance if youve never seen the results of corrosion in aluminum wiring.
I for one take the extra time to use no ox be it #12 or 750mcm.
Terminations come pre buttered with it so there has to be some merit to it.
And I would ask. If you reterminated that neutral would you have cut out the bad part,twisted the wires
back together and put a wirenut on it calling it good?

It isn't reluctance. It seems like you think all aluminum wire is the same. The new stuff is different than that old junk.

I have no interest in trying to change your mind and there is no harm in using noalox even when not required.

If I ever bought a house with aluminum branch wiring, I'd rewire it all. No question. If a rewire wasn't feasible, I wouldn't buy it. Beyond that, I don't expect to encounter any moving forward.

 

[toplessHO]

It isn't reluctance. It seems like you think all aluminum wire is the same. The new stuff is different than that old junk.

I have no interest in trying to change your mind and there is no harm in using noalox even when not required.

If I ever bought a house with aluminum branch wiring, I'd rewire it all. No question. If a rewire wasn't feasible, I wouldn't buy it. Beyond that, I don't expect to encounter any moving forward.

Maybe its a coastal thing maybe regional or maybe Im just lucky
Seen far too much damage from poor connections on aluminum wire.
This is not for the most part #12. I even coat the set screws on larger lugs
have seen the lug seize up with corrosion.
But then again the places Ive worked at cant afford a failure.
Most of the terminations we spec for aluminum wire(only used for larger feeders)
are hypress lug filled with no ox,2 hole bolt down connection also buttered on contact patch.
yea takes a minute or 2 longer....When termination cant be bolted and its feasible,micadapt terminals are used.
The problem with aluminum wire under a set screw termination is that its initially torqued,and if lucky via PMs its retorqued
but the wire will thru the heat cycles of load continue to lose torque.
If this isnt caught in time the loose connection will arc.
Yes no ox plays an important role in the health of a good termination.

 

[rlitman]

...The problem with aluminum wire under a set screw termination is that its initially torqued,and if lucky via PMs its retorqued
but the wire will thru the heat cycles of load continue to lose torque.
If this isnt caught in time the loose connection will arc...

An aluminum bodied lug with an aluminum bodied set screw will not loosen over thermal cycling with aluminum wire (I say bodied, only because coatings are too thin to have an effect on thermal expansion). Now if someone substitutes a steel set screw, yeah, it's doomed, but it would be doomed with copper wire too.

 

[toplessHO]

An aluminum bodied lug with an aluminum bodied set screw will not loosen over thermal cycling with aluminum wire (I say bodied, only because coatings are too thin to have an effect on thermal expansion). Now if someone substitutes a steel set screw, yeah, it's doomed, but it would be doomed with copper wire too.

so what youre saying is that all of this thermal imaging and retorque of terminations is just wasting money?

 

[rlitman]

so what youre saying is that all of this thermal imaging and retorque of terminations is just wasting money?

As a person who's got a FLIR camera within arm's reach right now, that I use regularly, I don't have a boolean answer for your question, but I think I have a good appreciation for it. For the record, my toolbox at work has several torque wrenches that I also use regularly.

I feel that thermal imaging is crucial in my line of work, and I've caught and repaired countless issues over the years with it. And while I've re-torqued countless connections, what I can't say is that I've ever seen a single connection I've torqued, turn further when checked again years later. I've seen plenty of failures of electrical mechanical (screwed/bolted) connections that I attribute to lack of sufficient torque, but I suspect that they were all under-torqued to begin with. Had it been an inherent problem with the fastening system, other adjacent connectors that see equal or greater thermal load (continuous or cycled current) would have failed simultaneously or earlier, but that's just not something I've experienced. So, I see re-torqueing as a cover-up for poor initial workmanship, or lack of proper engineering (such as the steel screw in an aluminum lug example). Roll back 5 or 10 years and see if you can name any electrician you knew who even owned a torque wrench. They'd probably have laughed at anyone who said it was important.

My biggest catches with the FLIR have been due to copper oxidation (often around crimped connections), and not due to loosening screws. This bolted example was still so tight I had real trouble opening it when it came time to fix.

What I find interesting is that around 60C (and 161F is around 70C), copper oxidizes about as badly as aluminum does at room temperature. With all modern wiring now rated for higher connection temperatures (usually 90C and up), it's kind of scary how much we rely on circuits having low duty cycles to achieve their expected lifetimes.

 

[Copymutt]

Always thought ground rod connections were compromised with in a few years. Being exposed to the environment and visibly oxidized how good are they. Copper to copper w/ brass screwed collars doesn’t seem to be zero resistance. Never metered one.

 

[mike93lx]

Always thought ground rod connections were compromised with in a few years. Being exposed to the environment and visibly oxidized how good are they. Copper to copper w/ brass screwed collars doesn’t seem to be zero resistance. Never metered one.

They don't need to be zero resistance. They just need to be the least resistance in the system

 

[wyliesdiesels]

socks arent required with loafers but I still wear them.
Comon guys take some pride in your workmanship.
If you dont like getting the grey or black hosepucky on you then use the amber stuff.
Even with the horsepucky you can use the applicator tip to prevent a mess.
Trim the ends of tip for larger wires and keep a couple sizes handy.

do you like wasting time and money on something that will gain you nothing? cause thats what youre doing.

the aluminum alloys of today are not the same problematic allows of the 60s and 70s... you sir need to update yourself to current technology

 

[Norcal]

Maybe its a coastal thing maybe regional or maybe Im just lucky
Seen far too much damage from poor connections on aluminum wire.
This is not for the most part #12. I even coat the set screws on larger lugs
have seen the lug seize up with corrosion.
But then again the places Ive worked at cant afford a failure.
Most of the terminations we spec for aluminum wire(only used for larger feeders)
are hypress lug filled with no ox,2 hole bolt down connection also buttered on contact patch.
yea takes a minute or 2 longer....When termination cant be bolted and its feasible,micadapt terminals are used.
The problem with aluminum wire under a set screw termination is that its initially torqued,and if lucky via PMs its retorqued
but the wire will thru the heat cycles of load continue to lose torque.
If this isnt caught in time the loose connection will arc.
Yes no ox plays an important role in the health of a good termination.

You do not go around retorquing conductors, they are to be torqued to manufacturers specs & left alone, if have to retorque, the exposed metal needs to be cut off & reterminated.

 

[toplessHO]

Always thought ground rod connections were compromised with in a few years. Being exposed to the environment and visibly oxidized how good are they. Copper to copper w/ brass screwed collars doesn’t seem to be zero resistance. Never metered one.

all the more reason for exothermic connections which is pretty much all thats used on jobs that notice stuff like that.
Look at government specs or ATT specs.If any bolted ground connections are done its with a 2 hole lug bolted and coated liberally
with No Oxide. Weaver Jr is out with any spec thats worth a salt. Many places require periodic testing of grounding system.

 

[toplessHO]

do you like wasting time and money on something that will gain you nothing? cause thats what youre doing.

the aluminum alloys of today are not the same problematic allows of the 60s and 70s... you sir need to update yourself to current technology

no thanks not buying into that. Neither are any of the engineers that design high value jobs Ive ever dealt with.I guess they didnt get the memo either.

 

[toplessHO]

You do not go around retorquing conductors, they are to be torqued to manufacturers specs & left alone, if have to retorque, the exposed metal needs to be cut off & reterminated.

I guess you need to write specs for PMs
thats a first

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I can understand your reluctance if youve never seen the results of corrosion in aluminum wiring.
I for one take the extra time to use no ox be it #12 or 750mcm.
Terminations come pre buttered with it so there has to be some merit to it.
And I would ask. If you reterminated that neutral would you have cut out the bad part, twisted the wires
back together and put a wirenut on it calling it good?

if the manufacturer says it isnt needed then whats the point? its not gonna help anything. youre just wasting your time...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

no thanks not buying into that. Neither are any of the engineers that design high value jobs Ive ever dealt with.I guess they didnt get the memo either.

not buying into what?

you do realize that PoCos use aluminum for their drops and underground laterals into meter pans and they dont use no alox? same goes for their feeders out of pad mount transformers... they never have an issue with heating up or melted lugs and wire due to the aluminum oxidizing...

engineers make up all kinds of ****. doesnt mean theyre right.

 

[alfredeneuman]

PoCos don't use compound and never retorque their wires.

Neither are any of the engineers that design high value jobs

All engineers eventually hook up to the PoCo's aluminum system "high value" or not.

 

[toplessHO]

not buying into what?

you do realize that PoCos use aluminum for their drops and underground laterals into meter pans and they dont use no alox? same goes for their feeders out of pad mount transformers... they never have an issue with heating up or melted lugs and wire due to the aluminum oxidizing...

engineers make up all kinds of ****. doesnt mean theyre right.

done tons of PO Co work
you want to see all the half or 3/4 used bottles I have left?
They issued way more bottles than the job required
Same thing with silicone,Im fixed for life.
Maybe you live in the land of zero humidity.
come here in the swamp or by the ocean and watch the corrosion grow.

 

[toplessHO]

PoCos don't use compound and never retorque their wires.

All engineers eventually hook up to the PoCo's aluminum system "high value" or not.

and those engineers arent responsible for the PO Co equipment

 

[alfredeneuman]

or by the ocean and watch the corrosion grow.

I live less than 20 miles from the Pacific. Most of the generating plants are on the Coast.
Southern California Edison is the serving utility for all the Coastal Cities from Ventura to the Orange County line.

you want to see all the half or 3/4 used bottles I have left?

So CA Edison never uses compound on any of their equipment.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

done tons of PO Co work
you want to see all the half or 3/4 used bottles I have left?
They issued way more bottles than the job required
Same thing with silicone,Im fixed for life.
Maybe you live in the land of zero humidity.
come here in the swamp or by the ocean and watch the corrosion grow.

Ive seen PoCo connections on the west coast in california and i currently live in land where we have 100% humidity in the winter. Neither PoCo in either location uses the goop so youre assumptions are FALSE....