The Oldest Prentiss Vise

[micahd1997]

At the generous advice of a longtime GJ member and passionate fellow historian, I’m creating this new thread to bring awareness to the oldest Prentiss vises and encourage YOU to do your part. As a researcher, historian, and collector of the Prentiss Vise Company for the last three years, it’s my passion to establish a line of verified breadcrumbs that can provide clarity to the wider vise community and either debunk, reinforce, or refine the hearsay and half truths currently in circulation. That said, I’m only one man (and a fallible one at that), so I look forward to YOUR help in this team effort.
________________________________________

Recently, I was overjoyed to have found this very early, very rare 4” Prentiss vise. I identified it a couple months ago, and a good friend picked it up and shipped it to me from Pennsylvania.

Long Story Short:
This 4”, 52lb Prentiss vise bears the “dog” fastening feature for retaining the main screw (as opposed to the typical collar and grub screw combination). Based on available advertisements and statements made by the Prentiss Vise Company, this vise and specific feature almost irrefutably date back to the early 1890s (but certainly no later than 1897). To the masses and even the avid vise collector, it makes sense that the “dog” fastening feature isn’t noted, photographed, or even acknowledged. After all, it’s not objectively glamorous or spectacular, and even though it’s certainly different, most people would chalk it up to an aftermarket adaptation or simply give it a “Hmm…interesting” before forgetting about it. Because of this, though this early style IS truly rare, I also believe there are MORE out there than we might think. So please – Check YOUR Prentiss vise’s undercarriage and post a picture if you see a “dog” staring back at you.

Prior to and since purchasing this vise, I’ve been excited to purchase another (a 7” swivel base) and learn of several more.

Short Story Long:
As mentioned above, all available records indicate that the main screw of the earliest Prentiss vises were held in place by (what Prentiss referred to as) a “dog” fastening. Unlike the common collar and grub screw that we’re familiar with, this “dog” bolted to the underside of the dynamic jaw and held the screw in place by means of a little clip or foot. If you’ve ever had the pleasure of owning or handling a Prentiss jeweler’s (2”) or watchmaker’s (1 3/4”) vise, then you’ve seen this “dog” fastening before. Presumably, given the tight tolerances inside their jeweler and watchmaker vises and the difficulty of manufacturing such a small corresponding collar/grub screw, Prentiss kept the “dog” fastening for its jeweler and watchmaker vise lines throughout their entire existence. However, for reasons only to be speculated on (likely for easier casting and machining), Prentiss switched from the “dog” fastening to the collar style very early in their history. Based on multiple sources, it seems that this switch occurred between 1889 and 1891, and I believe this vise to be from during that time frame.

Another feature present in every known “dog” style Prentiss (one without ANY reference, depiction, or explanation on record) is that the nut for the main screw is “trapped” inside the casting of the static jaw. Rather than a dovetailed slot that the nut slides into (as with all other Prentiss vises), the base of the nut is encased on all sides by the casting of the vise. The nut jiggles just slightly, and the existing hole on the underside of the static jaw reveals a smooth, machined surface on the bottom of the nut. Because of this, I have no other explanation as to how this nut is held than that they were pressed into the cavity of the casting.

Other Notes:
There is no identified correlation between the digit stamps on Prentiss vises (in this case, 52) and any other characteristic of the same vise. Though the weight of this vise just so happens to be 52lbs, there are other vises of the same size/style with wildly different stamps. These are thought be nothing more than batch numbers used internally by Bagley & Sewall.

It’s hidden well (IMHO), but unfortunately the rear foot broke off the vise during shipping due to an existing crack. Thankfully, the casting matches up seamlessly, and I’m working with a machinist for a no-weld repair.

I only stripped this vise down to bare steel because 1) there was no preserving any semblance of an original finish given the thick rust, grease, and paint present and 2) the usefulness of any markings and casting impressions on the bare surface is very high.

As a researcher of all aspects of Prentiss’ history, I hope sincerely that more of these early vises come to light. Again, please check YOUR Prentiss vises and post pictures if any of them bear the “dog” fastening style.

 

[jreb10]

Early this spring I was fortunate enough to pick up what is obviously a Prentiss swivel jaw vise, although it was unmarked. When I took it apart to clean it up I noticed it had the "dog" style fastening. I noticed the dog retainer has an elongated hole which I presume is to allow some degree of backlash adjustment. The bolt securing the dog is square headed which suggests an older vise. The normal "Prentiss" on the back of the swivel jaw is missing without a trace. Here are some photos:

 

[micahd1997]

Early this spring I was fortunate enough to pick up what is obviously a Prentiss swivel jaw vise, although it was unmarked. When I took it apart to clean it up I noticed it had the "dog" style fastening. I noticed the dog retainer has an elongated hole which I presume is to allow some degree of backlash adjustment. The bolt securing the dog is square headed which suggests an older vise. The normal "Prentiss" on the back of the swivel jaw is missing without a trace. Here are some photos:

YES! That’s a fantastic example, @jreb10. From what I’ve found, it seems the text behind the swivel jaw didn’t come about until the very late 1890s. Prentiss’ lack of clear advertising in the early years has always confused me. The only thing I can chalk it up to was that, other companies began copying the swivel jaw design after the patent expired. Prior to that, since Prentiss vises were the only swivel jaw vises on the market, maybe they didn’t think any additional identification was necessary. Beats me!

A few questions on your vise…
1) Do you recall how wide the jaws are?
2) Does yours have the “trapped nut”?
3) Could you take a picture looking downward into the swivel pin hole?
4) Prentiss actually DID stamp their “unmarked” vises (at least for a time), though the markings are usually too beaten up to see. They stamped them right at the end of the tail (see picture). Are you able to see this stamp on yours?
5) Are there any additional markings besides the “146” underneath the dynamic jaw, the (presumably) matching stamp underneath the swivel jaw, and the patent stamp on the swivel base pin?
6) Also, for the “146” stamp underneath the swivel jaw, are there any dots underneath the numerical stamps (similar to mine)?

 

[1982fxr]

I've owned a lot of vises over the last 15 years. I'm being informed by buyers more and more there should be ZERO backlash. It's broken or deformed if there is any at all.

If you grab the dynamic jaw and start pulling and pushing, and it moves even 1/32" something needs a repair. Just passing on what I've learned. ☺

Forgot, zero movement of the slide in the cavity as well. Literally zero.

 

[micahd1997]

If you grab the dynamic jaw and start pulling and pushing, and it moves even 1/32" something needs a repair

Thanks for joining in on the conversation @1982fxr .

I would agree that, ideally, there would be zero backlash and zero movement of the slide in the cavity (given that that’s largely how they came from the factory, barring exceptions here and there). However, I’ll add that 1) buyers are very often not the best informers and 2) ZERO play in a vise (especially in the forward/backward movement of the dynamic jaw) isn’t really realistic for a vise that’s been used (even lightly) over the last 100-150 years. While the “dog” and collar designs both allow for small adjustments that true up any slop from the wear of the meatball, that obviously won’t account for any slop in the degrading of the spindle threads or the nut over time. Fixing any slop there and attempting to arrive at zero play seems like it would require the replacement of the entire spindle and nut combo (rather than a repair).

This is all just my two cents - but all that to say…if a buyer, collector, etc. was trying to convince me that 100 year old vise was broken or “less than” simply because it had 1/32 of slop in it, I would give some staunch pushback and challenge them to find the few, virtually unused antique vises out there that don’t have that same degree of play.

 

[jreb10]

I'll have to take a bit of time to respond to your questions as the Prentiss is out in the "Vise Vault" and not easily available. The photos were taken earlier when I was done cleaning and lubricating the unit.

But I can say something about the nut retention. Let me begin by saying that I am unsure if this is completely original. In this vise the nut slides in from the rear as normal but the retention mechanism is not the usual pin. Instead it is a piece of stock that slides in and is bolted to the bottom. I recall thinking this may be a later modification and looking for a hole for the usual retention pin but did not see one, although I did not look too hard. The piece of stock itself is "peened" in spots on the sides, a technique I have seen used to "tighten up" the fitment. The other thing I noted was that the bolt is a hex head and not a square head like the dog fastener. I am not sure what to make of it all. Here are some photos from earlier:

 

[jreb10]

Here is more information on my vise:

It has a jaw width of 4.5 inches.

I can't see any stamping on the end of the slide but it is worn given its age.

The swivel jaw and the base have matching numbers. I'm not sure I see dots by one of them but here are more photos and you can be the judge:

 

[micahd1997]

In this vise the nut slides in from the rear as normal but the retention mechanism is not the usual pin. Instead it is a piece of stock that slides in and is bolted to the bottom.

Wow thank you for the pictures @jreb10. Your "dog" style Prentiss is the first one that I've seen that doesn't have the "trapped" nut. The stock and hex nut definitely seem aftermarket to me, though if there is truly no pre-existing pin hole, then I'll be back to scratching my head. However, I do believe I can faintly see the top of a pin right behind the nut that's been hammered flush with the casting. Any chance you could remove the swivel base and post a picture of the underside? I'll throw out an educated guess and say that maybe yours is a transition vise during the time frame that Prentiss was converting from the "dog" and "trapped" nut combo to the collar/dovetail combo.

Agreed - I don't see any dots near your number stamps either.

 

[Patrickm82]

I hope a Lewis is ok @micahd1997. I just picked this up this weekend. From what I can tell a Lewis Tool co. #96. Crsinmich found it in one of your Lewis books you shared. 1896 patent screen shot of the page.

 

[micahd1997]

I hope a Lewis is ok

It’s a free country, and I’ll never say no to a Lewis! Congratulations, Patrick, that’s a nice one. I haven’t researched the short span of the Lewis Tool Co nearly as much as I’ve dug into Prentiss, but by 1915 (year that Mortimer Lewis died, if I recall correctly), Prentiss had started manufacturing all Lewis vises with the Prentiss name. With that in mind, your vise would certainly pre-date 1915.

 

[micahd1997]

See GJ's main vise thread for some additional information regarding the the oldest Prentiss vises

The VISES of Garage Journal

Lugnutz: This is not the tiny vise you posted but it does have features in common with yours. It sure does! Lends credence to the concept not being a one-off and a place to start looking. Thanks for posting!

www.garagejournal.com

 

[micahd1997]

An exciting update that further illuminates our understanding of the earliest Prentiss vises:

I was lucky enough to be entrusted recently with an original copy of Prentiss' 1891 catalog. Scans of this catalog had never previously been made (much less publicized), but high quality scans are now available here: https://archive.org/details/new-illustrated-catalogue-prentiss-vice-company/mode/2up

Among other things, this catalog proved (definitively, I believe) that Prentiss had switched from the "dog" style to the "collar" style spindle fastener by the time that this catalog was published. This means that any Prentiss vise with the "dog" style spindle fastener can be dated to no later than 1891. We can know this for a few of reasons.

On page 31 (attached), Prentiss instructs customers to..."In ordering new Front Jaws [aka. dynamic jaws] for Prentiss' Patent Self-Adjusting Jaw Vises, (only), always give the size (square) of the Sliding Bar of Jaw, and state whether the broken part has "Dog" or "Collar" style of fastening, for holding in the screw, as shown in the following cuts..."

Put that word "only" in your pocket for a minute; we'll need it here in a second.

On page 22 of this catalog, Prentiss announces their new line of solid jaw "Bull Dog" vises. One might ask, "Did Prentiss ever manufacture any of its "Bull Dog" vises with the "dog" style fastener"? The company's statement on page 31 gives us confidence that they did not. Not only does Prentiss specify "Prentiss Patent Self-Adjusting Jaw Vises" in their page 31 statement (which obviously excludes the solid-jaw "Bull Dog" line), but they go the extra mile in including the word...you guessed it..."only". The company's wording here implies with certainty that only Prentiss' swivel jaw vises were ever made with the "dog" style fastener.

Additionally, Prentiss' page 31 statement makes clear that, by the time this catalog was published, the company had already begun manufacturing even it's self-adjusting jaw vise line with the "collar" style instead of the "dog" style fastener. From pictures shared previously (see the first post in this thread), you'll notice that the "dog" style required some additional machining in order to accommodate the "dog".

Given all these facts, the following is my best guess of what happened: By 1891, Prentiss had been manufacturing vises for 15 years (1 year as Cook & Hall, 3 years as Hall Manufacturing, and 11 years as the Prentiss Vise Company). During this time, their swivel-jaw vises had gained national popularity, and as the company grew, so did their interest in improving efficiency and in broadening their product line (as any other company would). By 1890-1891, Prentiss had begun to reconsider the "dog" style fastener, and for the sake of less machining and a more robust design, they decided to switch to the "collar" style in 1891. Simultaneously, the company had decided to broaden their offerings and introduce a solid-jaw line of "Bull Dog" vises. Given the timing of these two decisions, they designed their "Bull Dog" vises to utilize the updated "collar" style right from the beginning. However...the re-designing of Prentiss' front jaws (aka. dynamic jaws) on all of their vises would have repercussions. Implied by Prentiss' page 31 statement, a "collar" style dynamic jaw would not appropriately fit a "dog" style static jaw in the event that a customer needed a replacement. Because of this, Prentiss asked any customers with repair requests for dynamic jaws to clarify which style they owned.

I fully recognize that the level of detail here may seem excessive. However, if we are to have any confidence in accurately estimating the age of our vises (whether Prentiss, Reed, Columbian, etc.), it's these kinds of nitty gritty details that we have to care about.

 

[micahd1997]

A link to my post showing the oldest Prentiss woodworker’s vise (no later than 1891)

Post in thread 'The VISES of Garage Journal'
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/the-vises-of-garage-journal.44782/post-11420211

 

[RoninB4]

-I don't have any information to contribute but do have an older Prentiss (#10) Coach-Maker pattern that I've done minimal restoration to if that would help.

 

[TFJ]

At the generous advice of a longtime GJ member and passionate fellow historian, I’m creating this new thread to bring awareness to the oldest Prentiss vises and encourage YOU to do your part. As a researcher, historian, and collector of the Prentiss Vise Company for the last three years, it’s my passion to establish a line of verified breadcrumbs that can provide clarity to the wider vise community and either debunk, reinforce, or refine the hearsay and half truths currently in circulation. That said, I’m only one man (and a fallible one at that), so I look forward to YOUR help in this team effort.
________________________________________

Recently, I was overjoyed to have found this very early, very rare 4” Prentiss vise. I identified it a couple months ago, and a good friend picked it up and shipped it to me from Pennsylvania.

Long Story Short:
This 4”, 52lb Prentiss vise bears the “dog” fastening feature for retaining the main screw (as opposed to the typical collar and grub screw combination). Based on available advertisements and statements made by the Prentiss Vise Company, this vise and specific feature almost irrefutably date back to the early 1890s (but certainly no later than 1897). To the masses and even the avid vise collector, it makes sense that the “dog” fastening feature isn’t noted, photographed, or even acknowledged. After all, it’s not objectively glamorous or spectacular, and even though it’s certainly different, most people would chalk it up to an aftermarket adaptation or simply give it a “Hmm…interesting” before forgetting about it. Because of this, though this early style IS truly rare, I also believe there are MORE out there than we might think. So please – Check YOUR Prentiss vise’s undercarriage and post a picture if you see a “dog” staring back at you.

Prior to and since purchasing this vise, I’ve been excited to purchase another (a 7” swivel base) and learn of several more.

Short Story Long:
As mentioned above, all available records indicate that the main screw of the earliest Prentiss vises were held in place by (what Prentiss referred to as) a “dog” fastening. Unlike the common collar and grub screw that we’re familiar with, this “dog” bolted to the underside of the dynamic jaw and held the screw in place by means of a little clip or foot. If you’ve ever had the pleasure of owning or handling a Prentiss jeweler’s (2”) or watchmaker’s (1 3/4”) vise, then you’ve seen this “dog” fastening before. Presumably, given the tight tolerances inside their jeweler and watchmaker vises and the difficulty of manufacturing such a small corresponding collar/grub screw, Prentiss kept the “dog” fastening for its jeweler and watchmaker vise lines throughout their entire existence. However, for reasons only to be speculated on (likely for easier casting and machining), Prentiss switched from the “dog” fastening to the collar style very early in their history. Based on multiple sources, it seems that this switch occurred between 1889 and 1891, and I believe this vise to be from during that time frame.

Another feature present in every known “dog” style Prentiss (one without ANY reference, depiction, or explanation on record) is that the nut for the main screw is “trapped” inside the casting of the static jaw. Rather than a dovetailed slot that the nut slides into (as with all other Prentiss vises), the base of the nut is encased on all sides by the casting of the vise. The nut jiggles just slightly, and the existing hole on the underside of the static jaw reveals a smooth, machined surface on the bottom of the nut. Because of this, I have no other explanation as to how this nut is held than that they were pressed into the cavity of the casting.

Other Notes:
There is no identified correlation between the digit stamps on Prentiss vises (in this case, 52) and any other characteristic of the same vise. Though the weight of this vise just so happens to be 52lbs, there are other vises of the same size/style with wildly different stamps. These are thought be nothing more than batch numbers used internally by Bagley & Sewall.

It’s hidden well (IMHO), but unfortunately the rear foot broke off the vise during shipping due to an existing crack. Thankfully, the casting matches up seamlessly, and I’m working with a machinist for a no-weld repair.

I only stripped this vise down to bare steel because 1) there was no preserving any semblance of an original finish given the thick rust, grease, and paint present and 2) the usefulness of any markings and casting impressions on the bare surface is very high.

As a researcher of all aspects of Prentiss’ history, I hope sincerely that more of these early vises come to light. Again, please check YOUR Prentiss vises and post pictures if any of them bear the “dog” fastening style.

Hello!,
I just found this site….I’ve been carting around a vise thats been in my family since 1948 and was purchased as part of a working, but failing business at that time. The vise was mounted on a bench in the machine shop of that business was and started around 1900. It’s seen a lot of use! When we stopped doing business and liquidation started, I came away with this vise ….
Yesterday I decided to identify it and get it working. One can barely make out an “R” and perhaps a “N” and then 2 “S” on the back part of the jaw. I guess it is a old Prentiss! As for the number - I can’t tell. The jaw widths are approximately 5 1/8” wide and seems to open 7 1/4” …I also guess the rear jaw swivels as does the base.(or will when I get them freed up) I’m going to send a photo or 3 and if you have time please peruse and comment! Thanks,
Tim Johannes

 

[RoninB4]

-I replied in the other thread

 

[micahd1997]

Hello!,
I just found this site….I’ve been carting around a vise thats been in my family since 1948 and was purchased as part of a working, but failing business at that time. The vise was mounted on a bench in the machine shop of that business was and started around 1900. It’s seen a lot of use! When we stopped doing business and liquidation started, I came away with this vise ….
Yesterday I decided to identify it and get it working. One can barely make out an “R” and perhaps a “N” and then 2 “S” on the back part of the jaw. I guess it is a old Prentiss! As for the number - I can’t tell. The jaw widths are approximately 5 1/8” wide and seems to open 7 1/4” …I also guess the rear jaw swivels as does the base.(or will when I get them freed up) I’m going to send a photo or 3 and if you have time please peruse and comment! Thanks,
Tim Johannes

Welcome to the group! I’ve attached a page from Prentiss’ 1891 company-issued catalog. Your vise is a № 21. You’ll note that the jaw width and the vise openings listed closely match what you mentioned in your post.

The swivel jaw pin isn’t original to the vise (often the case, given the likelihood of misplacing or throwing away the pin over the last century). However, everything else appears to be in decent shape except for a few chips in the lip of the swivel jaw (also typical). If you want to remove the spindle nut, you can gain access by taking off the swivel base. You’ll see the underside of the little pin that holds the nut. Punching that out will free up the nut.

The little arrow in the picture I attached points out a section that Prentiss added to its swivel jaw vises around 1890 to thicken the walls of the vise. It gradually thickens as you approach the front of the static jaw so that there’s an obvious lip/ledge between the swivel jaw and the body of the static jaw. Your vise has this same lip/ledge, so I wouldn’t date it any earlier than 1890. Prentiss’s vise design completely changed in 1910, so your vise wasn’t made any later than that. It’s debated, but it’s believed that Prentiss began casting their name and the vise number behind the lip of the swivel jaw around 1900 (like yours has). I personally would date yours right around the turn of the century. A manufacture date of roughly 1900 also aligns with the beginning date of the machine shop that it was used it, per your post.

Hope that helps!

 

[Patrickm82]

Prentiss 21

Edit;

@micahd1997 beat me to it

 

[TFJ]

Thank you for your responses .. I'm going to try to take photos and post some pics of the disassembly then assembly process !

 

[TFJ]

More progress on the #21 vise. ...So, after a little more time and gentle coaxing I see the number 84 punched into the bottom of the swivel jaw and also the vise body....any ideas as to what that number signifies?
P.S. the pin to release the spindle nut is frozen good....penetrol and a couple days wait and I'll try again

 

[KMScott]

Like other vises that are numbered in my opinion it is to keep the correct hand fit swivel jaw support to the matching Static body. Charles Parker did the same with their custom machined jaws. Parker had the best cutter grinders around that could build the male and female cutters making fitting the jaws easier to the jaw supports, they numbered their jaws and jaw supports like this Prentiss you own. Prentiss also had great cutter grinders workers too.

 

[TFJ]

Makes sense, ... after paint or on the busy factory floor, you would want to match #84 to #84, its mate. I was hoping to further pinpoint a manufacture date and any other information about the vise. The spreadheet and brochures link is fantastic!