Too Much Temperature Swing

[xroad]

The programmable thermostat I have for my steam heat system have a 2* differential. I set it to 68*, boiler turns on at 67* and turns off at 69*. Problem is the room temperature continues to drop down to 65.x* before the boiler heats up and starts to warm up the room. When the boiler shuts off, the remaining steam in the boiler continues to heat the room to 70.x*. SO, I am looking at approximately 5* of temperature swing.

What can I do to reduce the temperature swing?

 

[mpraddict]

Get a different thermostat

 

[ewang]

Where is the thermostat in relation to where you are measuring the temperature?

 

[xroad]

Get a different thermostat

Aren't all programmable thermostat have a preset 2 differential? They all (?) have a one degree resolution.

 

[xroad]

Where is the thermostat in relation to where you are measuring the temperature?

The thermostat is near the middle of the first floor, in the dinning room, next to the dividing wall between the living room and the dinning room. It is not near any radiators. Not near any doorway with a draft of anything.

Actually, if it is closer to the radiator, the heat would reach the thermostat sooner and trigger it OFF sooner, which is what I want, less differential.

 

[xroad]

I remember some old mechanical bi-metal mercury switch thermostat in my parent's old house had a tiny electric slider control inside. When the thermostat turns on, the current running through it suppose to heat up a bit and warm up the internal air of the thermostat housing causing the thermostat to shut off at a slightly lower temperature. In effect, it reduces the temperature swing.

I have not seen any such settings in electronic programmable thermostats. Not that I have seen a whole lot of different EPT's, maybe there are such features in some EPT's.

 

[Carsonb]

You need an indoor/outdoor thermostat balancing your boiler so it doesn't heat up more than needed. No offense but you'd be spending your money wisely on a HVAC tech installing and setting it up. Not rocket science but a lot to write in a reply. I used to have a website that described it well I'll try and find it for ya.

 

[xroad]

You need an indoor/outdoor thermostat balancing your boiler so it doesn't heat up more than needed. No offense but you'd be spending your money wisely on a HVAC tech installing and setting it up. Not rocket science but a lot to write in a reply. I used to have a website that described it well I'll try and find it for ya.

Huh? This is a single pipe steam heat system. Not that know much about any other heating system, every house I lived in for the last many decades are single pipe steam heat and there was never another thermostat other than the one in the house. Are there something else available? Give me a hint. Are you saying outdoor thermostat to monitor outside temp?

 

[Friartuck]

xroad, your memory is correct. The adjustment on older mechanical type thermostats you mentioned is called the anticipator circuit. It was designed to generate a slight amount of heat to fool the mercury switch into thinking the room was up to temp. Thus the name, to anticipate what the room is doing. These were settings ranging from 0.2 to 0.6 amps and was dictated by the current in either the heater gas valve or relay. The heater unit should have that on a spec plate or manual. Check the programmable thermostat manual. There maybe a couple of settings available like "Adjust System On-Time. My Honeywell MagicStat #32 has in the booklet instructions for this during installation (screw settings).

 

[Friartuck]

My other Honeywell programmable Thermostat has settings called "Heating Cycle Lengths: 10, 12, 15, 20 or 30 minutes" Check yours for something similar.

 

[Ron Lombardo]

YOU CANNOT USE A PROGRAMMABLE THERMOSTAT WITH STEAM ... It doesnt state on it ..it can be used with steam. You need to use a std round Honeywell T87F and call it a day ... I spent many hours trying to get it to work .. it doesnt work. The delays, heat anticipater settings, programable doesnt work with steam ..it takes too long to make steam to satisfy and too much residual heat after the boiler makes steam. Sorry to give you the bad news ...

Ron

 

[xroad]

YOU CANNOT USE A PROGRAMMABLE THERMOSTAT WITH STEAM ... It doesnt state on it ..it can be used with steam. You need to use a std round Honeywell T87F and call it a day ... I spent many hours trying to get it to work .. it doesnt work. The delays, heat anticipater settings, programable doesnt work with steam ..it takes too long to make steam to satisfy and too much residual heat after the boiler makes steam. Sorry to give you the bad news ...

Ron

Thanks for the reply. I have to disagree. I have been using a programmable at my current house, my mother's old and current house, and my sister's house. Their house is less leaky and does not seems to have my wide temp swing problem. Their temp is probably around 3*.

I do not recall the instruction sheet on any of the thermostat mentioned "no steam system". If anything, I recall it mentioned "OK for steam heat system". Of course, my old and weak memory can be a problem. I'll have to dig up the instructions and read it carefully.

 

[xroad]

My other Honeywell programmable Thermostat has settings called "Heating Cycle Lengths: 10, 12, 15, 20 or 30 minutes" Check yours for something similar.

Thanks for your reply. There were lots of goboliegook in that instruction sheet that I did not understand. I got the thermostat working and I did not pursue further. I'll have to go back and check the other feature settings.

 

[Carsonb]

Well this isn't the site I was thinking of becuae it only tells you whats happening not how its wired.
http://www.fiainc.com/documents/10-08Canyoureallycontrolaone-pipesteamsystem.pdf

If I remember right the outdoor temp was wired to control low voltage valves but I'm forgetting what controler is used. I don't work on the distribution side of a steam system much.

 

[xroad]

Well this isn't the site I was thinking of becuae it only tells you whats happening not how its wired.
http://www.fiainc.com/documents/10-08Canyoureallycontrolaone-pipesteamsystem.pdf

If I remember right the outdoor temp was wired to control low voltage valves but I'm forgetting what controler is used. I don't work on the distribution side of a steam system much.

That write up describes a commercial system with different zone distribution and the complication involves with shutting down one zone and throwing off balance f the remaining system. They get into control valves and such. Home system is primitive compared to what they described. I have no valves. The only valve is the air bleed valve at each radiator. Prior to the electronic programmable thermostat, I had a mechanical bi-metal mercury thermostat that is just a on-off switch controlled by temperature, pretty primitive.

Friartuck jogged my memory ... 'anticipator" was the name used in hose old mechanical thermostat.

 

[xroad]

My other Honeywell programmable Thermostat has settings called "Heating Cycle Lengths: 10, 12, 15, 20 or 30 minutes" Check yours for something similar.

I have not go look at the instructions yet, have to find it first.

If heating cycle length is what I think it is, .... limit the time the boiler stays on, regardless of the room temperature, then it will probably help a bit. Like any primitive system, it is never perfect and always a compromise. Depending on how cold is my basement at the time, how much water is in the boiler at the time, how low is my room temperature, and how windy is that day (very leaky drafty house), the time required for the boiler to be on would vary.

I still like the old tech current through an "anticipator" coil ... simple.

 

[nate379]

Sounds like you are talking about a boiler reset controller? There is another name for them, but it's not coming to mind right now.

http://www.taco-hvac.com/en/products/PC700 Boiler Reset Control/products.html?current_category=150

 

[chevelle67]

boiler reset controllers do not work on a single pipe steam system due to water boiling at 212*f at atmosphere, 213*f @ 1 psi, 216*f @ 2 psi etc. single pipe steam systems are very touchy when it comes to pressure due to condensate drainback. Steam heat can be a pain to setup properly due to many factors but once it is setup is still one the most comfortable ways of heating. Sounds like your tstat is not setup with the correct anticipator setting. The older merc. stats had a slider with a resistor that would heat up the bimetal to fool the stat into thinking it was slightly warmer than it was when the heat was running. It would "anticipate" when to shut off the heat slightly before setpoint because it takes some time to cool down the furnace or the baseboard or other medium. Steam heat is very hot and slow to recover, it also takes a long time to cool the radiators etc. down, which can cause overheating. Solid state stats dont have resistors for anticipation but many of them have logic in them that take care of it. Just needs to be setup in the installer menus, alot of them even want to know what kind of system it is to compensate for it.

 

[redsky49]

Not to pick on Chevelle, but there is a lot of misinformation being thrown into the discussion. Steam has more specific heat that (potentially) allows very quick response.

Single pipe steam systems utilize the same pipe for steam supply, as well as for condensate return. These are low-pressure type steam systems which means less than 15psi, though in practice typical system pressures are usually 2-5psi. The condensate flows by gravity, against the direction of the steam flow, providing the pipe slope, as well as other factors, are correct. This is a relatively simple (inexpensive) system that was in use primarily in residential and small commercial systems at the turn of the century (late 1800's) up until about WWII when it fell out of favor. Contrary to other steam systems, there are generally no steam traps utilized in these systems. The terminal heating units are provided with air vents at the high points of the unit to bleed any residual air from the system. All systems should have an additional vent at the high point of the piping.

Controlling these systems is difficult and is one of the reasons that these systems have fallen out of favor. One of the approaches that I have found successful is the use of thermostatic control valves located at each heating terminal. A variety of manufacturers provide these devices, but I have had good results with Danfoss. Honeywell, as well as several other manufacturers, have available controls that will also perform well. In such a system the room thermostat becomes obsolete. Boiler operation is done by a controller based on system pressure or a combination of factors depending on how complicated you want the system to be.

The main problem with these systems is that many, if not most, heating technicians have little to none experience with them. The smart steam guys are unfortunately all long dead. That is the main problem for owners of these systems.

This is a perfect example where the OP should track down an experienced steam technician. A check of the entire system, including the boiler, should be the first step in diagnosing the problem. Once the system integrity has been established, possible remedies can be investigated.

I once spent about six weeks trying to get a school steam system to operate properly. Multiple site meetings with the installer, manufacturer rep's, operating personnel, etc., was no help. Finally resolved after staring at the system for over an hour - the light bulb went off and I found a piping error. These systems can be frustrating!

An experienced tech can also help you fine tune the system for best efficiency. Get experienced help. The savings will pay off down the road.

As always, offered only as opinion

 

[Ron Lombardo]

" The smart steam guys are unfortunately all long dead. " LOL Not here in New York Steam systems are being installed new.

I offer my experience, but have a few questions.

Is the boiler a power pile pilot sensor ? Thermocouple or electronic?

What is the pressuretrol set at in PSI ?

Can you check the Boiler and see what it states the setting of the Heat Anticipator should be?

Does your new thermostat have a heat anticipator setting to adjust? Sometimes there are little pins to change ?

What thermostat # are you trying to get to work ?

Is the piping in the basement on the main insulated?

Is there a MAIN air vent on the main across the basement just before it drops down into the hartford loop ?

Are the air vents at each radiator adjustable?

Are the air vents adjusted to the lowest # closest to the boiler and largest # the furthest away.

Did the system have this problem before you changed the thermostat ?

Ron

 

[redsky49]

" The smart steam guys are unfortunately all long dead. " LOL Not here in New York Steam systems are being installed new.
Ron

Ron is correct. In the major east and midwest cities steam is still popular ( I am not familiar with the west coast), particularly where large below-street "distributed" steam systems exist. What I was referring to are the large number of older homes, particularly in suburbs, where steam - especially single pipe systems - are a disappearing breed.

Gravity heating, single pipe steam, etc. are all older technologies that have been replaced by more efficient and more effective systems.

The best current source of steam info for interested members is Dan Holohan. He had (and perhaps still does) a column at the back of one of the plumbing magazines and has put together several books regarding various "antique" steam systems.

The point I was trying to make is that these systems can be challenging to diagnose and, finding knowledgeable techs, especially with single pipe systems, is difficult - particularly outside of large older cities.

By the way, I don't think that most home owners have any idea what a Hartford Loop is or what it does. [Prevents low water conditions in the boiler. Differing jurisdictions may require check valves. Check local requirements]. Again, a professional should be required.

As always, offered only as opinion

 

[xroad]

" The smart steam guys are unfortunately all long dead. " LOL Not here in New York Steam systems are being installed new.

I offer my experience, but have a few questions.

Is the boiler a power pile pilot sensor ? Thermocouple or electronic?

What is the pressuretrol set at in PSI ?

Can you check the Boiler and see what it states the setting of the Heat Anticipator should be?

Does your new thermostat have a heat anticipator setting to adjust? Sometimes there are little pins to change ?

What thermostat # are you trying to get to work ?

Is the piping in the basement on the main insulated?

Is there a MAIN air vent on the main across the basement just before it drops down into the hartford loop ?

Are the air vents at each radiator adjustable?

Are the air vents adjusted to the lowest # closest to the boiler and largest # the furthest away.

Did the system have this problem before you changed the thermostat ?

Ron

Pilot flame, no electronic ignition.
Millivolt generator (thermocouple) to keep the pilot flame on
Boiler set to 0.1-0.15psi, small house, short runs.
Boiler have no info on setting of anticipator.
New thermostat may have other settings. Forgot. Have to look.
Thermostat brand is "Hunter", from Home Depot. Model ... have to look.
Main runs in basement are insulated.
Main runs have big air vent at the end, not blocked, working OK.
Amazing that over 100 years, no one farts with the Hartford return pipes, still working.
Vents at each radiator throughout the hose are fixed, not adjustable.
I had them all balanced so that all rooms warms up evenly at the same time.
My old bi-metal mechanical thermostat did not have an anticipator inside. It also have a wide temperature swing, but I don't remember it to have such a wide swing as my current thermostat.

 

[xroad]

I think my solution would be at the "heating cycle length" .....

 

[xroad]

My old bi-metal mechanical thermostat did not have an anticipator inside. It also have a wide temperature swing, but I don't remember it to have such a wide swing as my current thermostat.

I think the problem is that the digital thermostat have a discrete ONE DEGREE STEPS, so a setting of 68* requires a full degree below, 67*, to turn on and a full degree, 69*, to turn off. That is TWO degrees of hysteresis (in engineering mathematical terminologies).

In a bi-metal thermostat, the control is a linear system. I don't quite know what is the temp range for the mercury switch to swing from "just barely on" to just barely off". I suspect it is not two degrees wide.

 

[Ron Lombardo]

Pilot flame, no electronic ignition. - ok

Millivolt generator (thermocouple) to keep the pilot flame on - A pilot generator .. will not work with a Programmable thermostat .. convert it to a standing pilot and thermocuple.

Boiler set to 0.1-0.15psi, small house, short runs. - Set it to 2.0 lbs That is what the original system was design to run at.

Boiler have no info on setting of anticipator. - You have to look it up .. this is the signal between the thermostat and Boiler .. give me the model # I will get it for you.

New thermostat may have other settings. Forgot. Have to look. - You have to be sure STEAM has unique needs.

Thermostat brand is "Hunter", from Home Depot. Model ... have to look. - I will get you the Honeywell model # that will work.

Main runs in basement are insulated. - Excellent

Main runs have big air vent at the end, not blocked, working OK. - Perfect

Amazing that over 100 years, no one farts with the Hartford return pipes, still working. - Is there a drain at the bottom ? Does the water run clear ?

Vents at each radiator throughout the hose are fixed, not adjustable. - Do they have numbers on them ? They should be postitioned to allow the heat to come up even ly ..other wise the heat will be uneven and the last radiator will be cold then too hot.

I had them all balanced so that all rooms warms up evenly at the same time. - Perfect

My old bi-metal mechanical thermostat did not have an anticipator inside. It also have a wide temperature swing, but I don't remember it to have such a wide swing as my current thermostat. - Ok so this is STEAM 101. ITS NOT THE THERMOSTAT that is the problem.

Here is what I would do turn the pressure up to 2psi eaxactly. Make sure the water runs clear out of the bottom of the Hartford loop, the low water cut of and the boiler drain. IF you want to us a programmable Tstat ... get a HONEYWELL thats states it works with steam and program it accordingly and covert the Powerpile to std pilot with a thermocouple which will require a new gas valve. If you need exact Part # let me know.

My customers pay 150.00 per hr for this ... LOL

Good Luck and God Bless.

 

[xroad]

Ron,

Thanks for the tutorial. It opens up a few questions .....

The thermocouple that the pilot flame is heating up is connected to a box inside the boiler. It generates a minute amount of current for the box that contains a valve that shuts off the gas if the pilot is gone and fails to heat up the thermocouple.

The thermostat, bi-metal mercury or the electronic one I am using, is just a on-off switch. I checked the two wires from the electronic t-stat. They are the contacts of an internal relay. It mimics the mercury switch. So, the two t-stat, old and new, is no different, other than the linear vs. digital discrete full degree steps I mentioned in an earlier post.

20 years ago, I know nothing of the pressure setting in previous houses I lived in. In my current house, I got 20 years ago, I start screwing around with the setting. Use to have the pressure cutoff setting set to 1 psi, 2 psi, and 3 psi. That caused lots of loud banging. Then I found out the setting needs to be low. One place I read, or was told, I only need to get the pressure high enough to push the steam to the farthest radiator. So, I lowered it down to 0.5 psi and it reduced the banging without loosing any "performance". I kept experimenting with lower pressure, down to 0.1 psi and the system has been working great and "bang free" since, other than the wide max temp and min temp.

I know the old fashion "anticipator" t-stat will solve the problem, as Friartuk and redsky49 had mentioned. I'll have to look deeper into the electronic thermostat setup menu. I probably missed something.

I am in the middle of my 3 weeks business trip now. So, I'll dig up the instruction sheet when I get back.

 

[chevelle67]

No Worry Redsky. Not all the steam guys are long dead, as i am one of them that got trained by the "old steam guys". You are correct not many people understand them anymore. I not sure where you got confused with my comment but it also doesnt matter. I work on Papermill and Power plant all over Wisconsin, anything from 50hp lp. - 15,000 hp superheated compound sytems, as well as some vac. steam sytems. Generally overshoot or wide temp swings on a single pipe system has to do with cycle time. Xroad it sounds like you have a good grasp on how your system runs, Anticipator settings on Digital stats are generally termed "adaptive recovery" or similar and can take some time for the stat "learn" the amount of delay on or off when its enabled.

 

[xroad]

Anticipator settings on Digital stats are generally termed "adaptive recovery" or similar and can take some time for the stat "learn" the amount of delay on or off when its enabled.

Chevelle67,

I think you are giving the low budget electronic thermostats for home use way too much credit in ways of sophistication. I doubt they would go as far as implementing adaptation into their software in that little microprocessor with minimal memory. At best, I can see that they may reset the trigger point for the shut off. e.g. t-stat set to 68*, trigger to turns on at 67*, internally automatically set to 68* for turn off, instead of 69* as all the home electronic t-stat I have seen. I have not seen any form of reduced hysteresis programmed into the devices. Perhaps the commercial control boxes have better features and controls.

 

[Ron Lombardo]

XROAD ... order this book - The Lost Art of Steam Heating by Dan Holohan or call him 516-796-9276. He is a great guy and he will guide you.

The route of your problems is not the thermostat. The dirty return is preventing the water from returning back to the boiler and the low pressure setting is preventing it from getting thru the loop quick enough ... in both cases you are short cycling the system. Clean and flush the boiler and turn the pressure up to 2 psi.

Ron

 

[xroad]

"short cycle" means ..... the boiler turns on for only short times and comes on and off too often?

I asked my son to time the boiler time (I am in the middle of my business trip now) and he said when it was about 25-30 minutes from the time the t-stat kicks it on at 67* to the time it turns off at 69*. The t-stat was set to 68*. The following 25-30 minutes, the room temp continues to raise to a bit over 71* from the remaining heat/steam in the boiler/system.

The cycle characteristic is very consistent.

I'll get the book. Thanks for the tip.

 

[xroad]

The dirty return is preventing the water from returning back to the boiler and the low pressure setting is preventing it from getting thru the loop quick enough ... in both cases you are short cycling the system. Clean and flush the boiler and turn the pressure up to 2 psi.
Ron

Two weeks ago, I have resolved this problem in one of the farthest radiator in my house.

For 18 years, I cannot get this radiator to work right while the rest of the house works relatively OK (except the wide temp swing). I am certain you are correct on the low pressure and the return water not draining. This radiator was "moved" at some point in the history of the house. The extension runner pipe was only mildly pitched and small in diameter, 1-1/4". I cannot change the pitch as other plumbing in the basement was in the way. The radiator was not right for the job, too small, too rusted, too old, too something! Every time I disconnect the radiator, whole lot of water pours out. The vent was new. Conclusion, water not draining back fast enough.

As an experiment, I removed the radiator shut off valve. Connected a 3 feet 1-1/2" diameter pipe with a very large air vent at the end, the type used for ends of a long main run pipe. It worked! As soon as the boiler turns on, steam arrive at the pipe before any other radiators gets warm. The pipe heats up fast, and very hot. I then made a U-turn and added another 3 feet section. It worked better, throws out more heat, as expected. Seems the larger diameter pipe allows quick draining of the return water and allows steam to continue to push into the pipe, where the old radiator was "slow" in draining.

 

[xroad]

" ..... The smart steam guys are unfortunately all long dead...... "

I don't think they are all long dead. Just that many of them are dead and finding someone that understand steam heat system is far and few in between. Many years ago, when I first bought my house, before I had my system debugged, it was banging, spitting and have obvious signs of serious problems. When I had plumbers come in to do other work, they always offer to tear down the whole system and install new boiler and hot water baseboard system with all new copper pipes for me. Three plumbers during those early years made the same proposal and none of them offer to help adjust or debug the old steam heat system.

I just love it for the pure simplicity of it, if all things are debugged! I don't have to worry about circulation pump failure, vent valve corrosion, force hot air fan motor, etc.

 

[redsky49]

" ..... The smart steam guys are unfortunately all long dead...... "

I don't think they are all long dead. Just that many of them are dead and finding someone that understand steam heat system is far and few in between. Many years ago, when I first bought my house, before I had my system debugged, it was banging, spitting and have obvious signs of serious problems. When I had plumbers come in to do other work, they always offer to tear down the whole system and install new boiler and hot water baseboard system with all new copper pipes for me. Three plumbers during those early years made the same proposal and none of them offer to help adjust or debug the old steam heat system.

I just love it for the pure simplicity of it, if all things are debugged! I don't have to worry about circulation pump failure, vent valve corrosion, force hot air fan motor, etc.

I think that a lot of historical knowledge and experience has disappeared from the scene. This is not to disparage those who still work with steam in many capacities, but the knowledge base is unquestionably smaller and becoming more so every day. While someone may be able to dispute this, I am not aware of a new single-pipe steam system being built after the 1940's. My experience with them, in every case, has been in a building from the 1930's or earlier.

While the systems are simple on the face of their design, just like a fireplace, the smallest of design or installation errors can result in unsatisfactory performance, which can be exceedingly difficult to diagnose, especially on internet forums. A pair of knowledgeable eyes on site is always the best tool you can employ.

As a final note, be aware that the condensate from these systems is nowhere near as clean as water from distillation processes, but is instead extremely aggressive, affecting all components of the system. For this reason, piping for conventional steam systems utilizes a heavier wall thickness for condensate return than for steam supply (that is for low to medium pressure systems). This chemical laden fluid makes short work of purpose built condensate receivers, and generally wreaks havoc with other components such as pumps (referencing another posting).

You seem to have a far better understanding of your system than typical home owners. Good luck with solving this problem. Persistence generally pays off. And I concur with the value of Holohan's books on steam systems.

 

[xroad]

You seem to have a far better understanding of your system than typical home owners. Good luck with solving this problem. Persistence generally pays off. And I concur with the value of Holohan's books on steam systems.

Thanks. I was fascinated with it when I was 9, and now at early 50's, I am still fascinated and still learning. Somehow, debugging force hot air and hot water heating system never did it for me.

In the old days, people live in their house the entire life and the house don't change all that much. House extensions and alterations are almost a given these days. That is the demise of the steam heat system. The system is designed when the house was built. Big look up tables and calculations from many years of experience goes into the steam heat design. Move one radiator, and you are screwed. Once everything in balanced, it is nirvana!

 

[Ron Lombardo]

" I think that a lot of historical knowledge and experience has disappeared from the scene." & " ..... The smart steam guys are unfortunately all long dead...... "

LOL ... This is my opinion ... I'm a Mechanical Engineer, Mechanical Contractor, Plumbing Designer and Bachelors in Business Adminstration with an Accociates in Construction Mgmt and 3rd Generation Pipefitter Plumber in the STEAM CAPITAL of the USA New York City. I post the answers and solutions to your problems and you ignore and dispute them .... do you really think we are all dead and that the knowledge has disappeared. Or do you think the consumer reads and believes what they read on the internet which is really just the opnion of Home Depot and Lowes ? It kind of dishartening and in a way insulting to US the professional in the industry to read statements like that ? Dont you think ... WE FEEL there are too many weekend warriors playing with things like steam boiler endangering their familys and playing with gas lines endangering OTHER PEOPLES Families .... Too many Home Shows ... I;m allf or do it your self .. but get real professional advise ...from the LIVING and I guess LISENING might be the real problem.

Ron

 

[xroad]

" I think that a lot of historical knowledge and experience has disappeared from the scene." & " ..... The smart steam guys are unfortunately all long dead...... "

LOL ... This is my opinion ... I'm a Mechanical Engineer, Mechanical Contractor, Plumbing Designer and Bachelors in Business Adminstration with an Accociates in Construction Mgmt and 3rd Generation Pipefitter Plumber in the STEAM CAPITAL of the USA New York City. I post the answers and solutions to your problems and you ignore and dispute them .... do you really think we are all dead and that the knowledge has disappeared. Or do you think the consumer reads and believes what they read on the internet which is really just the opnion of Home Depot and Lowes ? It kind of dishartening and in a way insulting to US the professional in the industry to read statements like that ? Dont you think ... WE FEEL there are too many weekend warriors playing with things like steam boiler endangering their familys and playing with gas lines endangering OTHER PEOPLES Families .... Too many Home Shows ... I;m allf or do it your self .. but get real professional advise ...from the LIVING and I guess LISENING might be the real problem.

Ron

Ron,

Are you addressing me with this post? I hope not because you have been very helpful and educational to me and I was not aware that I was disputing your answer and solution.