Upgrade Ground with 200A panel

[IP2GSR]

Hi Guys

Currently I have a 100A Stab Loc panel in the garge (Federal Pioneer) with only one breaker position free. In order to accomidate the added circuits for the garage and also furture expansion I am going to upgrade the existing pannel to a 42 position 200A pannel. The meter is rated for 200 A but the service wire is 2 AWG aluminum so I beleive that well need to be upgraded as it does not have the required ampacity for the new panel.

My questions are:
- Does the ground wire need to be upgraded along with the service feed. This is the wire the goes from the panel to the the actual ground.

- If I was to run a 60A sub in the basement at a later date but run the feed now what AWG would be appropriate. 8/3?

This is for a house located in BC Canada if it makes a difference.

Thanks

Dave

 

[Ezzie]

Not sure I understand what distribution you have now. Might be helpful to give us more info.

1. Is the garage attached to the main dwelling?

2. Is the exisiting 100A service feeding everything in the house, garage and basement now?

3. Do you know what type of ground and size of ground wire you have now?

4. Where is the meter located?

A 60A sub panel would require 6/3 + ground attached back to your main panel (stove cable).

 

[sberry]

Yes the wire needs to be upgraded, maybe someone knows if it is current here but they did allow for 2/0 copper residential, 3/0 commercial or 4/0 alum for either. Yes the wire to the rod likely needs to be changed to number 6 or better for 200A service.

 

[sberry]

Ezzie has the right idea, maybe you just need more spaces, especially if you already have true 100A service in a garage.

 

[IP2GSR]

Not sure I understand what distribution you have now. Might be helpful to give us more info.

1. Is the garage attached to the main house?

2. Is the exisiting 100A service feeding everything in the house, garage and basement now?

3. Do you know what type of ground and size of ground wire you have now?

4. Where is the meter located?

A 60A sub panel would require 6/3 + ground attached back to your main panel (stove cable).

Thanks Ezzei
Responses are:
1. The garage is attached

2. The panel is currently feeding the entire house garage basement ect. 3200 sq ft and is located in the attached garage. Currently the only large loads are a stove and electric dryer.

3. No I forgot to measure it when I was looking last night but I will measure the ground wire tonight and feed back my findings. I was assuming that the ground wire would be sized to match the 100 amp panel in the same way the wires feeding the service are sized for the load. Therefore an update would be required? The problem as I see it is that the wire disapears into the wall and I assume into the foundation where it is buried. I don't like the idea of having to dig up the or drill a hole for a new ground steak.


4. The meter is 2 ft away from the existing panel.


I thought about adding a sub in the garage but instaltion is problematic given the location of the existing panel. (no room to the left or right or below) Nearest location would be 7 ft away. I do have some height which led me to thinking about replacing the panel itself.

In the sort term I would like to add a heatpump to the house. I would like to add a few 20A receptical circuits to the garage and one 220V, 30A surface plug for a welder and compressor during the renovation of the garage.

Currently I don't see a need for a sub in the basement except that heatpump will require a new 220V feed to be run to the same location. I figured with the walls open it seems like the right time to run the extra wire and if future needs require a sub then it can be added.

Thanks

Dave

 

[Charles (in GA)]

NEC table 250.66 gives ground electrode conductor sizes as they relate to size of largest ungrounded conductor (hot) supplying the system.

If you are using 2 copper or 1/0 aluminum then the ground electrode conductor should be 8 copper.

If you are using 1 or 1/0 copper or 2/0 or 3/0 aluminum, then the ground electrode conductor should be a 6 copper.

If you are using a 2/0 or 3/0 copper or a 4/0 or 250 kcmil then the ground electrode conductor should be 4 copper.

In your case, going to a 200 amp feed, you will probably be using 4/0 and thus need the 4 copper ground electrode conductor.

Charles

 

[tfi racing]

You will need to increase the wire size to 3/0 cu or 4/0 al for 200 amps,all the way from the weatherhead to the main breaker in your new 200A panel.If your service mast and conduit/****** is smaller than 2",it will need to be replaced as well.The ground conductor will need to be one piece(no splices) of #4 or larger bare or green wire and run to the existing ground electrode which is likely OK (plate,rods or copper waterline).After all that,BC Hydro will have to upsize your overhead conductors as well,and BCSA will take their pound of flesh for permits and inspection(s).

If you are in the Nanaimo area,I could likely have a look and tell you what's up.
Nothing to it,really!

 

[Terry Kennedy]

The meter is rated for 200 A but the service wire is 2 AWG aluminum so I beleive that well need to be upgraded as it does not have the required ampacity for the new panel.

At least here in the US, the utility companies no longer install the meters with lower current ratings - the 200A meter is the standard residential size. With the periodic replacement mandated by the regulatory body, this means that older meters with lower ratings are being removed from the field.

Thus, it is no longer possible to rely on the meter nameplate rating to determine the service capacity.

In addition to replacing the conductors from the meter base to the panel, it may be necessary to replace the meter base as well if it does not have a 200A rating.

Depending on your jurisdiction, the cables from the service head to the meter base will probably need to be replaced as well. Since they're on the utility company's side of the meter, resistive voltage drop is their problem. But most jurisdictions have this cable provided by the customer's electrician, so it falls under that code and not the utility's own rules.

Does the ground wire need to be upgraded along with the service feed. This is the wire the goes from the panel to the the actual ground.

I'm going to say yes. I'd assume that your existing installation, being 100A, was performed under an earlier version of the electrical code. Recent codes have increased the grounding requirements - for example, a single ground to a water line now requires an additional ground rod.

 

[Ezzie]

Looks like your best solution is to do a service entrance upgrade to 200A as has been suggested. It will likely be easiest to replace your existing grounding method as well with either stakes or plate as stipulated by your local electrical code for BC. Then installing additional sub-panels in either the basement or garage is really optional depending on whether you want to run individual circuits all the way from the new main panel to the new loads or if it is going to be less of a hassle or less expensive to run the new circuits you need from a sub panel.

 

[IP2GSR]

Thanks guys... you rock.

The service from the street is enclosed in 3" PVC and is buried so I won't know if that needs upgrading untill I dig a bit deeper.

If you are in the Nanaimo area,I could likely have a look and tell you what's up.
Nothing to it,really!

Thanks for the offer.... get over to the mainland much? LOL I am in Port Coquitlam although we have good freinds in Nanaimo. Does that count!?

TFI I assume you run at Western Speedway? I do a little road racing at Mission Raceway.

Thanks again guys I will start working on and let you know how it goes.

Dave

 

[tfi racing]

Underground service-that changes the game a bit.You should check with BC Hydro first to see what size cable they have to your house-that may be the deal breaker right there!

My car is a bit too whizzy to run at Western,I may be changing over to their rules over the winter,I used to race in the ARCA West series at Vernon but the lack of cash has kept me from the track this year.If work sends me to the mainland soon,I could stop by and give you some tips.