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Voltage drop possible issue with 12/3?

perkin50

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I was planning on running a 12/3 wire off of a 240v/20a breaker to power all the wall outlets. I chose 12/3 so I can alternate phases of voltage with the outlets. The possible issue is the outlet on farthest from the panel is 125 feet away. Should I be concerned with vlotage drop?








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fefarms

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The photo is a bit blurry but the wire looks like flat 12/2 With Ground Romex, not 12/3 with ground Romes (which is usually round). But I'll assume it's 12/3.

12 AWG copper has a resistance of 1.6 ohms per 1000 feet. If the one way distance from the farthest box to the panel is 125 feet, then the two-way distance is 250 feet. The resistance of 250 feet of wire is .4 ohms. If only one circuit is loaded, and that load is at the farthest point, and the load is the full 20 amps, the voltage drop will be 8 volts, which is double the usual goal for a branch circuit of 3%, or about 3.6 volts.

Ironically, if you fully load BOTH circuits in such a 12/3 arrangement, the voltage drop (per circuit) will be only 4 volts. This is because the effective neutral current is zero. 4 volts of drop to the last box is OK for this situation.
 
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perkin50

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It is 12/3 with ground.

Ok so with a single load I am double the acceptable load at around 8v. What is the farthest I can run this 12/3?

Do I need to rewire to shorten this distance?
 
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MrMark

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If the neutral current is zero there should be zero voltage drop. Why do you say 4 volts?

Edit: OK, I see you are talking about the path to the load and then the path after the load and the path to the load will drop 4 volts, but after the load the neutral current would be zero and drop no voltage. So the only dropped voltage would be on the run to the load, none on the return path.
 
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MrMark

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This is a good thread. It shows how the shared neutral (which I don't like for safety reasons) does help with voltage drop for long runs if the loads are somewhat balanced. The help is marginal under most situations, but it is there.
 

fefarms

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You still have the drops on the hot legs, even when the neutral is zero.

yes, you do. You have 20 amps flowing from one hot leg, through the load,through the other load, and back on the other leg. Total distance of 250 feet, 20 amps, 8 volt drop. Only now the total voltage is 240 volts, and 8 volts drpp from a 240 volt supply is an acceptable 3.3 %.
 
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fefarms

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If you are using 12/3, how are you providing GFCI protection for what appears to be a slab on grade application? Two-pole GFCI breakers tend to be expensive, and putting a GFCI in every box is also expensive. Going without ground fault protection in this application is not up to current codes, and unsafe enough that I wouldn't do it even in a location with no codes/inspections.

So far as the voltage drop goes, limiting the one way distance to 100 feet or so would make things more or less acceptable. Very few normal plug in appliances take the full 20 amps. On the other hand, if you anticipate plugging in a big table saw or something near the end of the run, you might drop it down to 60 feet for a high-starting-load application like this.
 

Charles (in GA)

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The voltage drop at 240 volts is irrelevant to the situation, as the circuit will be capable of 120v load on one side, and needs to be "engineered" to handle that situation. It is quite possible that the user may plug every piece of equipment they have into the same side of the circuit. Very few people go around thinking, "this is the A side and that is the B side, and I plug this in A and that in B and we'll be even". I actually did just that with my lighting multiwire circuit, but it was a one time thing and easy to do, the top half of each receptacle being marked with a big red A and the lower half being marked with a ********* B (at each fixture) which corresponded with the colors of the wire supplying the receptacle top and bottom and the buss bars of the panel board as marked on the panel diagram on the inside of the door.

If possible the OP needs to split the whole thing into two different runs, using two double pole circuit breakers (ie "240v breaker") instead of just one as you propose to use. Somehow you really need to shorten the runs, or up the wire size for part of distance.

What the OP is proposing is known in the NEC as a Multi-wire circuit (aka "Edison circuit") which takes advantage of the alternating current to share the neutral with two different hots drawing from opposite busses of the panelboard. Current NEC requires in most circumstances that the breakers used have the handles tied together so that they will both trip should one circuit overload. This provides safety to anyone working on the circuit in that it assures that ALL power is removed from the boxes where the receptacles are mounted. It also assures, due to the alternating stab design of circuit breaker panels, that the two hots are indeed opposing "phases" of the panel. One other thing to be especially aware of when running a multi-wire circuit, is that the neutral must be continuous and uninterrupted by the removal (either temporarily or permanently) of a component of the circuit such as a receptacle. This means that you cannot run the neutral to one white/silver screw on the receptacle and come off the other white/silver screw with the neutral continuing to the next box. Instead, you need to take the bare ends of the two neutrals (in and out of the box) and add a third wire, a pigtail, and wirenut all three of these together. Then the short pigtail is attached to the receptacle. Thus, when the receptacle is removed for maintenance or replacement, and the pigtail is disconnected, the upstream and downstream neutral wires remain connected together.

Charles
 
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perkin50

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I initially chose going with 12/3 because two components could be under load at the same time without surging issues. With all this talk I am stating to think I should of not used this 12/3. And I should have used two circuits to reduce the length of wire.

I can still do this as I am only out some wire. What do you guys think of this:

-Break this up into two separate circuits at approxmatily 90 feet for each run.
-Put the first breaker on each run through a GFCI outlet.
-Use 12/2 wire
-Use a 20 amp single pole breaker for each circuit.
 

oleguy

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where is the panel located?looks like you have a sub panel in there?
 

Mattlt

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Not to hijack the thread...

Wouldn't it be better to attach the wires to the underside of the wall girt above the outlet instead of the top of the girt below? Wouldn't that protect the wire a lot better?
 
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