wiring a spa, I think they did it wrong

[mikeyr]

I am trying to avoid a argument with the company I purchased a jacuzzi from, they installed it today and I think they wired it wrong.

The manual clearly states 6g wire and 50amp breaker, I got home and they ran 8g and 40amp breaker. Says that is all they ever do and its fine, I have to admit they have been in business since the 1970s and its the second spa I have bought from them so I tend to trust them.

So they have offered to come and put in a 50amp breaker tomorrow but of course not change the wire, they claim it will be ok with 8g wire since it is only a run of about 40ft. I am guessing 40ft. the spa is actually about 30ft. from the panel so adding some for going down under the house, etc. He says for that short a run, I will have no problems.

If I do the math on both pumps, they draw 16.5amps total, the heater I don't have specs for but he says its 20amps (have to trust him) and the light is LED so no draw of consequence. That puts me at 36 amps and I have run everything on without popping the breaker.

I would prefer avoid a war with them and either leave the 40amp breaker in there since it is working AND they claim that is all they ever put in for that spa and no issues. Do I need to make a war to upgrade the wiring ? can I go to 50amp breaker since its such a short distance as he says.

And by the way, permit was signed off by city inspector so he thinks its ok at 40 also but I think he just looked at how things were done nothing else.

 

[Aceman]

It's up to you what you want to do, if might work forever or it might run just long enough to get them out of any warranty work.

The manual says 50 amp and 6 gauge. When I do an install for a customer, I look at the recommended breaker size in the manual and run the circuit accordingly. Making assumptions is just begging for a call back.

If you want a code article, 110.3(B) requires we install electrical equipment according to manufacturers instructions. So a 40 amp breaker on #8's isn't cutting it.....

 

[Ford12508]

I repair hot tubs, hot springs mainly. What model jacuzzi is it? I have a J365 or J345 hooked up right now on a 20A breaker because it only runs the circulation and jet pumps, no heat. Normally when they are on a 40A line vs a 50A, the heater wont always be running if I remember correctly. here is the breakdown off the top of my head(I do work on jaccuzis, but not as much)

30A - heat when circ pump is running. When jets go on, heat goes off.
40A - one jet pump can be on while the heat is on
50A - everything can run at once.

Do you have an ozinator, circ pump, sound system or anything else installed?

 

[Frank The Plumber]

This is another situation in which electrical bonding is critical. I hope they did that.

 

[mikeyr]

Its a Marquis 435, 2 pumps, ozonator, 1 LED light, heater nothing else, no sound, nothing.

They claim that the manufacturer claims 50 for when all the options are installed and without them, 40 is fine. Swapping the breaker is easy, I am more worried about the wire and I should start a war to get it changed.

 

[mikeyr]

And yes, the bonded it, that I checked

 

[mrb]

is this #8 wires in conduit or is it nm or uf?

 

[mikeyr]

good question, not sure nm or uf, I am guessing nm, I can't see enough of the stuff to tell and I am not a electrician. Its romex style, 8/3, black cover, when I say romex, its not solid wire like romex, just in a sheath so I call it romex. If nm or uf makes a big difference I will crawl under the house and find out.

I verified the makers plates and have done the math, the heater is 240/v 4.0Kw so that makes it 16.6 amps, the motors are 9 and 6.4 amps, which ends up being 32amps total draw, the ozonator has to take some power, and the control panel has to take some also but even so I think I am under 35 amps total (the sales guy says total if everything came on at the same time which can't happen, is 38amps but he is a sales guy with a upset customer so he will say a lot).

He is willing to change the breaker to 50amps but not the wiring of course, I think I will leave it alone as-is but still listening if I should make war with them or its ok. So far water is up 82degrees, going up about 6 an hour and both pumps on full no popping of the breaker.

 

[Gooch]

good question, not sure nm or uf, I am guessing nm, I can't see enough of the stuff to tell and I am not a electrician. Its romex style, 8/3, black cover.

I have done the math, the heater is 240/v 4.0Kw so that makes it 16.6 amps, the motors are 9 and 6.4 amps, which ends up being 30amps total draw, the ozonator has to take some power, and the control panel has to take some also but even so I think I am under 35 amps total (the sales guy says total if everything came on at the same time which can't happen, is 38amps).

He is willing to change the breaker to 50amps but not the wiring of course, I think I will leave it alone as-is but still listening if I should make war with them or its ok. So far water is up 82degrees, going up about 6 an hour and both pumps on full no popping of the breaker.

If it's romex, it's only 60*C rated. which means IIRC(book not handy) that its only good for 40 amps so don't let them come out and put those #8s on a 50A breaker.

The manual says what it says for a reason, just because it works doesn't mean its right.

Make the guy come back and do it right.

 

[mrb]

does nec consider this spa a continuous load? if so a 40a circuit can only have 32 amps of load on it.

 

[Gooch]

does nec consider this spa a continuous load? if so a 40a circuit can only have 32 amps of load on it.

doesn't NEC consider any resistive load to be continuous? although there is an entire section on spa's so that would superceed anything else.

 

[79firebird]

it might be fine as i have a hottub on a 40 amp gfci right now. Heater takes 20 amps i have 2 pumps on it both are 3hp ones that say 20 amps. Only time i poped the braker is when i turned both pumps on at the same time well the heater was on. If i wait 10 seconds and start the 2ed well one is on and the heater is on no prob.

 

[CADPoint]

Its a Marquis 435, 2 pumps, ozonator, 1 LED light, heater nothing else, no sound, nothing.

They claim that the manufacturer claims 50 for when all the options are installed and without them, 40 is fine. Swapping the breaker is easy, I am more worried about the wire and I should start a war to get it changed.

First, hit them with the earlier stated statement of 110.3(B) per the NFPA!

If the heater is running your number is low it's 16.67 Amps, you need all the numbers and that pushes you above 32 amps *. Then one would round up or down.

I'll assume heater, pump and aerator are all running at one time. I don't know what other bells you need not to whistle.

doesn't NEC consider any resistive load to be continuous? although there is an entire section on spa's so that would superceed anything else.

I'm not going to answer your question as to the way you asked it.

# Since a motor(s) is involved the applicaton of 125% has to be used. This is due to the inrush that is required from a motor starting to work. Better yet the 1.25 can be used at least once to the largest motor and the other motor amps just added. It'll still put you over 32.

Final straw tell them you are going to get it inspected ((if they do that in your neighborhood)) and tell him you will hold them accountantable for that bill and the one to do it right!

 

[wssix99]

What does your contract/agreement with the company say they will do? The labor and material costs to install 6 ga. are considerably more than 8 ga.

If a 40 amp circuit is enough for the draw, then you are fine - but there must be a reason why the manufacturer spec'd a 50.

What brand of tub is it?

 

[d33pt]

why don't you give the spa manufacturer a call and see what they say about the 40amps? also let them know what one of their authorized installers did and see if they'll intervene.

 

[cowboyjosh]

I thought I'd add something. On brand new homes we give folks the option to "rough in" for a spa / hot tub outside in the location they choose. Our guys always wire in a 50 AMP circuit from the main panel to the spa disconnect box outside; we have never rough wired in anything less then 50 AMP that I can remember unless it was done after initial construction.

 

[cnc-me]

Just fire everything up, and slap on a clamp-on amp meter on it.

 

[Kevin54]

Most "Spa Packs" come standard with a 50 amp breaker. Never heard of any on a 40 amp. Our spa had a stereo, and with that we had to step up to a 60 amp breaker on #6 wire. Of course it is GFI and I also had to have a separate ground rod installed.

 

[Norcal]

Most "Spa Packs" come standard with a 50 amp breaker. Never heard of any on a 40 amp. Our spa had a stereo, and with that we had to step up to a 60 amp breaker on #6 wire. Of course it is GFI and I also had to have a separate ground rod installed.

GFI & GFCI are not the same thing & why a ground rod? If someone "grounds" to a rod, you have a lethal set up if not bonded correctly.

 

[mikeyr]

ok, not going to let them change the breaker to 50amp, leaving it at 40amps. Used the spa yesterday, both motors and heater were on nothing happened. going there right now to complain in person.

 

[royalton10]

I would be a stickler for what the installation calls for, #6 wire and 50 amp breaker. The manufacturer calls for that and has a reason in doing so.

If the dealer wants to keep the sale, insist it be installed to specs. Otherwise, come and get the tub.

Let's keep this simple.

 

[ishiboo]

I would be a stickler for what the installation calls for, #6 wire and 50 amp breaker. The manufacturer calls for that and has a reason in doing so.

If the dealer wants to keep the sale, insist it be installed to specs. Otherwise, come and get the tub.

Let's keep this simple.

Agreed. Just asking for an issue as things age and suddenly 2 years down the road, it IS tripping a 40A breaker because the motors are old, pumps warn and there's more friction/resistance. I'd make sure it is installed to manufacturer specs right away or future costs will be on you.

 

[mikeyr]

Ok, we can close this thread now !

I was being a stickler for what the installation manual called for and I was being told it was ok because I did not have a spa with all the options and the manual is for a fully opted spa.

I went there a few hours ago and made it clear I was not happy and would write a letter to the spa manufacturer "as documentation" that I felt it was not done right and we would leave it at that, I also told them not to switch out the 40amp breaker to a 50amp since the 8gauge wire could not handle, he told me that the spa could never pull 50 so the wiring was safe and also that the distance was so short that 8gauge would be ok. I quoted some electrical codes I learned yesterday (here Thank You) and was very calm and not mad, I just said I would write the letter so if any future issues, I would have documentation. He even gave me the address of the manufacturer to write to.

About 2 hours later during lunch they call me on my cell phone and say that the electrician was not aware I had the 2 motor option and they would like to upgrade the wiring and breaker on Monday... WOW that was EASY, I NEVER expected them to agree to upgrade the wiring and I was not going to make a war about it. He said better to have a happy repeat customer than a upset one and the electrician felt it would be best to rewire it. Ok, I think the threat of the letter scared them although not visibly while I was there, my wife thinks it was because I was so calm and not insisting, I admit I was resigned to having it done right someday in the future at my cost.

So, long story short, they are fixing it on Monday with 6gauge wiring and 50amp breaker.

Not sure what this does to the permit/inspection as it has already been signed off but that is their problem if they even call or not.

 

[tdkkart]

Not sure what this does to the permit/inspection as it has already been signed off but that is their problem if they even call or not.

If nothing else it proves that the inspector didn't do his job very well.........

 

[ishiboo]

If nothing else it proves that the inspector didn't do his job very well.........

I doubt the inspector's job includes reading the appliance's manual to determine the breaker size. As long as the breaker was appropriate for the wire, I think he probably did exactly what he is supposed to.

 

[Kevin54]

GFI & GFCI are not the same thing & why a ground rod? If someone "grounds" to a rod, you have a lethal set up if not bonded correctly.

Excuse me. GFCI. And I had to have the panel grounded. I didn't hook it up, I had a licensed electrician do it.

 

[tdkkart]

I doubt the inspector's job includes reading the appliance's manual to determine the breaker size. As long as the breaker was appropriate for the wire, I think he probably did exactly what he is supposed to.

I would think, especially in a dedicated hardwired application, especially something as safety critical as a hottub or swimming pool, that the inspector might at least look for a data plate to see if the equipment was wired correctly and breakered appropriately.

 

[gnxtc2]

Where is the spa located, indoor or outdoor?

Billy T.
[email protected]

 

[Ford12508]

I would think, especially in a dedicated hardwired application, especially something as safety critical as a hottub or swimming pool, that the inspector might at least look for a data plate to see if the equipment was wired correctly and breakered appropriately.

A lot of inspectors just look at the quality of the work and if it looks good, they don't check much else. I talked to a few in NJ, and they always said "If you make me happy, you will be a successful electrician." Heck, I put a sub panel box in my parents house at the age of 15 or 16 by myself. It has been nearly 4-5 years now, no problems, and as far as anyone else is concerned, a licensed electrician or my dad put it in, I dont know if he pulled the permit or a buddy of his.

 

[mikeyr]

I am sure that the inspector looked at the work and not the specs on the tub, the other thing is that this company has been in business since 1974 so the inspector probably expects them to know what amp breaker to put in. Spa is outside.

I am at work but by now they should have changed out the wiring

 

[gnxtc2]

Spa is outside.

I am at work but by now they should have changed out the wiring

So your spa is outside, does RX go to your spa or was the RX converted to conduit once it went outside ????

Billy T.
[email protected]

 

[mikeyr]

conduit outside, comes out of the house and right under the ground and slab.

I did check when I got home...6gauge wiring and 50amp like it should be.

 

[walrus]

Can you run Romex to a spa, inside or outside? I don't think so, bare ground might be an issue

 

[Ford12508]

Can you run Romex to a spa, inside or outside? I don't think so, bare ground might be an issue

UF is what should be used outside if not in conduit