Wiring method in a concrete room

[Torque1st]

When dealing with wiring in a residential basement room with a concrete ceiling, walls, and floor has anyone found any easy method of running wires for things like a welder, compressor, outlets, etc around the room without using conduit for every run?

Most of the wiring will come from a subpanel up to the ceiling then along the wall thru the wireway then up thru the ceiling or down the wall from the wireway to final destinations in conduit. Visualize a "T" with the subpanel in the center and the top of the "T" about 22' long, 11' each way. The ceiling is ~9' high.

Some individual runs will have to go all the way in conduit, no getting around it.

Are there wireways that can be constructed? I know I can buy commercial metal wireways but they are extremely expensive. It may be my only practical choice tho.

 

[Kevin54]

Can you build a soffit around the room to run the wire in then drop down from that? Lag some wood to the ceiling and walls to frame it up? Then you could always put some recessed lights in the soffit.

 

[hidollartoys]

Run all wiring in the joist space and then drop down in conduit to point of use. Techinically for residential the wire only has to be protected @ 6' and below.

 

[buening]

with a concrete ceiling

Trunking or wire ducts would be the only other alternative that comes to mind.

http://cableorganizer.com/surface-raceways/index1.html

 

[tfi racing]

Have a look at Wiremold's line of products,they may have something you like.
http://www.wiremold.com/publigen/index.asp

 

[sberry]

Once I started piping I would keep on going. Super easy to run multiple circuits and switch loops, saves a lot of redundant ground wire.

 

[Torque1st]

Run all wiring in the joist space and then drop down in conduit to point of use. Techinically for residential the wire only has to be protected @ 6' and below.

Hmmm, there is no joist space in this application which is what makes it unusual. All the wiring in the rest of the house is run in the joist space or the attic but here I have a structural concrete slab that is also the garage floor above it.

Kevin- The fake "soffit" for the can lights may be the trick.

I will take a look at more wiremold products.

 

[Junkman]

If it is a pre formed factory made slab, then it has holes in it to run the wires. Check with the company that made the slabs and they should be able to tell you the proper proceedure to opening up the holes to run the wire.

 

[rsanter]

I would think that is you use conduit and run the drop cord reels from that then you can pull the power cord wherever you want it and then it will retract when you are done.

anymore in my garage, the only things plugged into the wall are things that stay pluged in. all temporary connections are made to cord reels

bob

 

[Torque1st]

This is a cast in place slab, I will have PVC pipe stubs set in the concrete at specified locations for conduit and pipe runs.

I will have a drop cord reel in the garage above. The garage above has conventional framing.

Upstairs in the garage there will be normal lighting plus:
120VAC outlets along the walls
240-20A outlets on two walls
240VAC A/C outlet
240 50A welder outlet near the garage door
240 service for the lift
-Those circuits will require holes in the slab.

Down below there will be normal lighting plus:
120VAC outlets
240 outlets for the mill and table saw etc.
240 service for the manlift
240-50A welder outlet below the panel
240-30A compressor service
240-3Ø for the lathe from a RPC and 3Ø panel in the utility room.

I may just use that soffit trick and drop in 4' fluorescent drop ceiling fixtures with the subpanel framed in below it. I need light anyway and was planning on some perimeter light above the workbench area below. I normally run a ground wire in conduit anyway since I have seen too many instances where the conduit (usually EMT) has become disconnected. In a basement environment I don't want to rely on there being no corrosion on the EMT fittings either even tho the area will have HVAC.

 

[the intimidator]

My advice if you want a clean install would be to frame in the roof with something like ceiling tiles (fire resistant). Once that is done figure out were you want you're outlets to be placed (this is important as their is no changeing later) Then Rent a cement saw and notch you're run's into the concrete were you want the outlet placed. After that run you're wire in the notches and plaster over with concrete, Trowel level to finish. This will give you a very clean install, Lot's of lighting options/layouts and Flat walls with no conduit running everywhere. I would also Place a few central outlets in the ceiling to connect retractable trouble lights/extension cords into.

I also had a question for you? What are you're plans for ventalation in this space from what you describe I am picturing a garage with a solid concrete basement correct? You need to insure a high exchange of fresh air to replace the old air if you plan on welding or anything of such nature in this space also most gases sink so you need to be careful what you are working on or with and ensure a constant exchange of air.
The other thing I noticed is you mention wiring for a lift above? Have you double checked with the slab manufacturer that it will sustain the pressure of a lift without failing? Just curious

 

[Torque1st]

The slab is engineered by a PE for the loads imposed including the lift and is cast in place so there is no "manufacturer". I am sure cutting grooves in the metal bridge decking used for the forms and part of the reinforcement would be a real mistake. The area is open to the rest of the basement and shop with appropriate fire doors and walls etc. It is also ventilated thru the slab opening by a vent fan above near the welder outlet or the garage doors and an emergency escape or fire door to the outside. Most of the welding will be done in the garage above. The garage area has one garage door to the South and two on the North side. The basement area escape door is on the South side.

I also have a very good "bubba" fan that consists of a $5 garage sale whole house attic fan mounted on it's side that puts those $200 industrial fans they sell in the hardware store and Home Box stores to shame. It is mounted on casters so the only real problem is the casters must be locked for operation or the unit takes off like an airplane...

 

[sberry]

Just curious, why not pipe it all? I am sure for you it wouldnt be a problem. I know I did a bunch as I went once it became more clear where things were really needed.

 

[Torque1st]

Bending conduit is an art and one that I am not any good at. In other words making all the runs lay evenly in a professional manner is a skill I never attained. Then when I want to add a circuit later I would be hard pressed to make the new run look good with the initial runs. Besides conduit is expensive as hell.

 

[Aceman]

Besides conduit is expensive as hell.

I thought emt was cheap.....

 

[Torque1st]

I thought emt was cheap.....

The tubing itself isn't bad but the fittings add up quickly.

I will be using some conduit. I am trying to figure out where PVC conduit is allowed and where rigid conduit is required. -So much fun reading the NEC. I spend a good portion of my time reading standards investigating specific questions and problems. I do not trust my memory to remember specific portions of codes because I have dealt with so many.

 

[sberry]

A little practice and you can make good bends. Price fittings, a box of 100 adapters is like 15$, handi boxes as low as 50 cents and 4x4 as low as a dollar with a vast cover selection makes it easy. Price before you assume the cost, you will make up for it with wire savings. Some circuits could be multi wire saving even more and more than one circuit can run in a pipe. I consider piping cheap. I do use some romex in housing but where I can its pipe all the way.

 

[Torque1st]

I am sure professionals with the "Knack" would run pipe but I ain't one of them.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Bending conduit is an art and one that I am not any good at. In other words making all the runs lay evenly in a professional manner is a skill I never attained. Then when I want to add a circuit later I would be hard pressed to make the new run look good with the initial runs. Besides conduit is expensive as hell.

The tubing itself isn't bad but the fittings add up quickly.

I will be using some conduit. I am trying to figure out where PVC conduit is allowed and where rigid conduit is required. -So much fun reading the NEC. I spend a good portion of my time reading standards investigating specific questions and problems. I do not trust my memory to remember specific portions of codes because I have dealt with so many.

EMT is fairly easy and not expensive, but more so than in the past (everything has gone up however)

I recently did all of my lighting with EMT. Gotta Admit, I didn't have to buy the 4in square boxes however, got about 15 for free, that saved me about $30+.

I HIGHLY recommend Illustrated Guide to the 2008 National Electrical Code by Charles R. Miller and Cengage Learning as this will get you past many of the issues such as clamping of rigid vs EMT.

Charles

 

[MisterCMK]

I am sure professionals with the "Knack" would run pipe but I ain't one of them.

Bending pipe is something that takes practice. I hate to break it to you, but I think that your best option in this case is to use EMT. Pipe and all of the fittings are cheap. If you are not comfortable making offset bends, use an offset box connector, no shame in that. Pick up some extra sticks of pipe and don't be afraid of screwing up. I have some pretty good resources for learning how to bend conduit if you would like.

 

[Torque1st]

That is the trouble, I have "practiced" and I have books... I just have had to accept it is one thing of many I can't do. The list is growing longer as the years go by.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I just played with it, using the info with the bender for calculating bends, and played with it till I got it right, and wrote down the procedure and each time I did that, I followed my instructions. You mess up a couple of sticks, but that amounts to less than $5.

Best instructions I have found for bending is this.............

http://www.mikeholt.com/documents/freestuff/BendingRoundRaceways.pdf

The document was created by someone at Albany State Technical College, Albany, GA, and it is the easiest to read and understand that I found.

Charles

 

[mjb]

Thanks for the link.

It reminded me of this office.

 

[Torque1st]

Charles, that is a great paper. It will be a nice reference that I can print out and get dirty to make those runs to light switches and overhead lights I will need to make.

Part of my problem is I have worked most of my life with real professional electricians with great skill and lots of tools that made it look easy.

 

[sberry]

I know you are a smart guy, you wont have a problem with this. Small errors can be corrected, some pieces can be cut to exact length after bends are made. I actually have a cheap chop saw I carry when I do pipe work. Doing your own also leaves a lot of design options open to make things as simple as possible. The occasional coupling can be used and conveniently located to reduce error, you will figure it out as you go.

 

[sberry]

IMO a less than flawless conduit job is superior to the best Romex especially in the garage environment. I look at other work in commercial buildings all the time, you can see some minor errors but unless you look most dont stick out as noticeable. I dont run a ground wire in most cases in my own applications as I fasten the pipe so I know its not going to be pulled loose like some other places might. If you are using 4x4 boxes and the devices are mounted in the cover you do need to run a wire from the device to the box though. Indoors I like the set screw connectors. I tighten the connector first then the screw. Splurge and buy a box of 100 ground screws right from the start.

 

[Torque1st]

All great advice guys, -Thanks! I will give the conduit a (re)try when the time comes and the "lighting soffit" gives me a backup plan. I always like to have some idea for a backup plan while doing construction.

The largest branch circuit will be the 50A welder with 3 #8 or even #6 THHN wires which will fit easily in 3/4" EMT so I will probably just use 3/4" for everything.

 

[sberry]

Torque, 2 #8 and a 10 for a welder circuit @ 50A

 

[Torque1st]

Thanks, I had not figured distance etc so I just made sure that the #6 would work in the same pipe. I have a 35' #6/3 extension cord I use with the welder etc.

I just figured out the total run to the outlet will be ~25' so total circuit distance will be (25 + 35) x 2 = 120'.

The outlet is technically a welder outlet but I also use the outlet to supply electricity to a visiting motor home occasionally which is not quite right but in a pinch it works. It should be a 4-wire at least. I use a full size neutral for RV power delivery.

 

[njwoods]

hello all,
I am not sure what your location is, but I know of a site that may be able to help you out.

They offer help to find a local contractor, get tips from pros, or just inspiration even. They really helped my friend with her bathroom renovations!

 

[nadogail]

Bending conduit is an art and one that I am not any good at. In other words making all the runs lay evenly in a professional manner is a skill I never attained. Then when I want to add a circuit later I would be hard pressed to make the new run look good with the initial runs. Besides conduit is expensive as hell.

Guided practice will allow you to improve your skills.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Guided practice will allow you to improve your skills.

Do you have a thing about 2008? Is your computer stuck in the past?
If his conduit skills haven't improved in 14 years it's not likely to improve in the next 14 (When you revive this thread again)

 

[ycgoat]

In addition to the good advise above you could install unisrut or furring strips at the top of the wall or on the ceiling and use it to strap your wires/cables/conduit for an exposed look.

You can get wiremold/panduit with dividers for running power and comms as well

 

[slimpickins]

I just played with it, using the info with the bender for calculating bends, and played with it till I got it right, and wrote down the procedure and each time I did that, I followed my instructions. You mess up a couple of sticks, but that amounts to less than $5.

Best instructions I have found for bending is this.............

http://www.mikeholt.com/documents/freestuff/BendingRoundRaceways.pdf

The document was created by someone at Albany State Technical College, Albany, GA, and it is the easiest to read and understand that I found.

Charles

Thanks for that reference! Great resource to have!

 

[mike93lx]

In addition to the good advise above you could install unisrut or furring strips at the top of the wall or on the ceiling and use it to strap your wires/cables/conduit for an exposed look.

You can get wiremold/panduit with dividers for running power and comms as well

Hopefully the OP figured it out by now

 

[ycgoat]

Hopefully the OP figured it out by now

LOL, OOps

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hopefully the OP figured it out by now

not likely. this is at least the third zombie thread hes raised from the grave