X10 Experts - Help with system design

[Weedwaka]

Hey Guys,

I am looking for some expert advice on putting together our x10 setup on our new carriage house.

We want to have it set up so that we have a 4 button key fob with the first three buttons controlling the three garage doors and dis-activating the alarm system on open , with the fourth button as a on off for the alarm only.

I also want one circuit of the garage lights to come on in the garage when either garage door circuit is opened .

I think I need the following ;

X10 controllable alarm system
x10 main controller with fobs
x10 motion detector for garage doors or trigger system
3 x10 triggers for each garage door opener

Press Fob >> Controller turns off alarm and sends trigger to garage door to open and light circuit to fire up.

What would be the best way to trigger the lights ? A single or multiple motion detector would seem easy and could be used with the man door entry also in the event you have your hands full.

A trigger setup on each door or fired directly from the controller seems a bit more elegant but then I may be missing something.

The lighting circuit is a basic 4 way ( 3>4>3> lighting load ) with switches at each of three doors and the garage doors will be liftmaster units that mount beside the garage doors if it matters.

Any advice ? Brand / device suggestions ?

 

[1fastvx]

I would stay away from X10. They just dont work well at all. Do a google search and you will see all the bad stories. If you are set on doing wireless I would check out and Insteon system at the link below.

http://www.smarthome.com/_/INSTEON/_/23b/land.aspx

John

 

[ixlr8]

I have spent more time than I care to admit getting an X-10 system to work. Lots of time in one house, had it mostly sorted out, thought I had the system figured out. Went to put it in my present house, not working worth a da**, I gave up. I was looking at the INSTEON system, but some of the features I want, that I had with the old X-10 system, aren't available and I read mixed reviews for support. I am still undecided, I will be curious to what you end up with.

[edit]

I went back and looked to see what I didn't like about the INSTEON system. It was their stand alone controllers, the ones you didn't need to have a PC running all the time. They just didn't have the features I wanted, this was about 3 years ago. The stand alone controllers have improved, but I am not sure they offer the level of control I want. But, I am now running a PC full time for data collection and uploading of my weather station. So.. now that I have a PC running full time anyway.. I am going to give the INSTEON system another serious look.

 

[ixlr8]

We want to have it set up so that we have a 4 button key fob with the first three buttons controlling the three garage doors and dis-activating the alarm system on open , with the fourth button as a on off for the alarm only.

I also want one circuit of the garage lights to come on in the garage when either garage door circuit is opened .

Press Fob >> Controller turns off alarm and sends trigger to garage door to open and light circuit to fire up.

What would be the best way to trigger the lights ? A single or multiple motion detector would seem easy and could be used with the man door entry also in the event you have your hands full.

A trigger setup on each door or fired directly from the controller seems a bit more elegant but then I may be missing something.

The lighting circuit is a basic 4 way ( 3>4>3> lighting load ) with switches at each of three doors and the garage doors will be liftmaster units that mount beside the garage doors if it matters.

I would think if you are using FOB to trigger a controller to turn off alarm and open door, the controller would be able to turn on what ever lights you wanted. Then you would just need either a door switch or motion detector near door to also turn the lights on... again through the controller. I think the most difficult part is going to be activating/deactivating your alarm, the rest is simple.. if you can find the parts. Do X-10 or INSTEON offer a 4 button FOB?

 

[Weedwaka]

Thanks for the replys.

There are a few 4 button x-10 fobs / controllers available. Even some 6 and one 8 button fob that I ran across on ebay.

That is the first I have heard of x-10 being troublesome. I should do a bit more digging before I commit to this 100%.

 

[ixlr8]

I have had 3 basic issues with X-10, and if you dig you will find they are fairly common and well documented.

- Biggest was working across the 2 110v legs. Without some means of getting the signal from 1 phase to the other, you can have 1/2 of your home not working. There is a simple device to put on your electrical panel to overcome this issue. Otherwise you are relying on the transformer on the nearest pole to provide this signal crossover, or anything in your home that is 220v being on at the time you need to send the control signal. It can drive you nuts troubleshooting when it works sometimes and not others. Before I put the device on my electical panel, I found the 'other' leg only worked when my well pump was running, as it provided the signal crossover.
- A more elusive one was power strips, most of them now have some sort of spike filters/surge suppressors in them. It seems these filters/suppressors also absorb the X-10 signal, enough to weaken the signal to not be reliable. If the offending power strip is plugged into the same circuit, not just the same outlet, as the X-10 device.. it often didn't work. It just takes one power stip w/ filter/suppression in the whole house to degrade the X-10 signal.
- I had a RF motion detector, I needed to put the receiver for it fairly close, within 10 ft, to the detector or else other RF noise; portable phones, cell phones, microwave oven, etc, caused enough noise that it was not reliable.

I was using a stand alone module and I had to hook up the computer up to it every 6-8 months to reset the clock in it as the timed events would drift 30-45 minutes over that period.
The INSTEON system claims to overcome most of these issues... I just haven't decided if I want to spend $300 on a starter system to find out.

If you can find 4 button X-10 fobs, and INSTEON is as reliable as they say, combining the two should get you a working system.

 

[Weedwaka]

Thats great information . Thanks !!

 

[spongerich]

I've had great luck with X10 in the past.

What ixlr8 said about bridging the 2 legs of your electrical system is by far the most irksome part of the equation.

If I recall correctly, I got around this by installing 2 receivers, one on each leg.

For your carriage house you can probably avoid this by ensuring that all of the circuits that you want to control are on the same side of the panel.

 

[gatchel]

If you decide to use insteon make sure to pair it with an ISY-99 controller. It helps remove some of the "problems" that can arise when using insteon. It is also way better than having a PC on 24/7 for link management and timer triggers. If you want a more reliable and professional product you should look into UPB.

 

[Mr_fixit]

I have been using x-10 stuff for the last 20 years, and have had many problems with it. I won't be buying any more. There has to be a better technology out there than x-10.

I wouldn't use it for any alarm stuff and I would use it on any device where you wouldn't mind it operating when it's not supposed to. A garage door- never.

Three way switches break, follower switches break, single pole switches break. I could go on & on.


I have had many different brands of x-10, rca, leviton, I think even sears had them.. and it's just not relaible enough to count on when you need it. When I operate some fluorescent lights in the detached garage ( no X-10) they trigger other x-10 wired lights to operate in the house. Certains times of the day they turn on. Some relay receptacles trigger so breifly that they contacts bounce, and you have to turn off the device 2 or 3 times to be sure it's off. During storms , sometimes they turn on for no reason. Other problems that occur over time are ... Some units operate and some don't , voltage suppressors interfere with it... suppressing the signal on some circuits.

It works great when I want to turn on or off the lights in the garage or out on the pole , I've replaced many wire in switches, these by far give the most problems.. sometimes the button works, but the remote won't and vice versa. ANd count on hitting the on buttons several times you can can be more sure that they actually did turn on.

I also had the computer version of the controller, which was like a fancy timer, which in theory should work great. Singanal bridge , you'd probably need one of those as others have mentioned.

I haven't used any two way modules, maybe they're better. I also have the x-10 alarm stuff that came in the house, and there's problems when the batteries go dead.

Plus I could sit outside your house and turn your lights on & off.


Stick to operating lights and you'll be ok. I'd never trust them for any kind of security..


Radio Ra , might be a better option, if it's still out there..

 

[cowboyjosh]

Have you looked into a LUTRON product such as the Radio Ra or Radio Ra2 system? A basic Ra or Ra2 system sounds like just the ticket for your setup based on what you sound like you want to do, see link below. For the money, LUTRON is BULLET PROOF, and installation is straight forward enough that depending on the complexity of what you want it is no more difficult then the DIY product from Smarthome.

Just like the Smarthome product and X10; if you want sophisticated scenes and events you'll have to find a Lutron installer (much easier to find then someone who is an "expert" in X10 or Insteon) who has the training and software to setup your system and tweak it if you will; I will say Radio Ra is more DIY friendly then the newly released Ra2.

In fair disclosure my company is a dealer and authorized installer LUTRON / VANTAGE / and CRESTRON products. When properly installed we have never had a customer who has had us install a LUTRON system say later "this system *****". As far as X10 and Insteon, they have their place, however we receive many of phone calls wanting to know if we might be able to troubleshoot or install such systems; the answer is always "NO" because we know of the pitfalls of X10 and even Insteon and Leviton Z wave and don't want to install anything that are customers are going to be disappointed with.

http://www.lutron.com/CMS400/default.aspx?app=RadioRA
http://radiora2.lutron.com/

 

[ixlr8]

Does the Radio RA system do anything more than dim lights? Does it have the ability to interact photocells, motion detectors? I looked quickly at the web site and didn't see that it had those options.

 

[ixlr8]

Well, I bit the bullet and bought a small Insteon system with the ISY99i controller. I have had the system about a week and I have more items being controlled reliably after 1 day with the Insteon system than I did after fighting with the X-10 system for over a month. I bought the garage door controller kit, KeypadLink, 2 lamp/access modules and a few control modules. I used the ISY to do all the "linking" and setting up of 'scenes' between modules. It can be done manually, but it is MUCH easier with the ISY and you don't need a computer running 24/7, although to be honest.. the ISY is a mini computer/controller that does run 24/7. One of the things I set up was the garage door open/closed sensor status. It shows up on one of the Keypad buttons, light on = door open. Keypad is in the living room and with that keypad button I can also open and close the garage door. Hopefully I won't leave the door open all night any more. Although system could be programmed to automatically close the door at a set time if the door was open. This will be important for me in the near future as I can't see my shop doors from the house, so this will let me know if I have left them open or not. The Insteon system also interfaces with several alarms systems, the ELK M1 alarm system seems to be the most popular and it can be monitored by a company if needed. The ISY plugs into your network router and can be set up so you can access it, monitor and control, from any PC or most web enabled phones. Actually the most difficult thing about setting up the ISY system is making sure the router settings are correct so you can access the ISY. All ISY programming is done from your computer using your browser to access the ISY. Since it uses your computer browser to access the ISY, it doesn't matter if you have a PC or a MAC. Although older MAC's can't run the newest JAVA program and apparently this limits some of the programming abilities. If you are running Snow Leopard it is not an issue, Tiger has the issue, not sure about Leopard.

 

[Weedwaka]

Whats the difference in technology between x10 and the insteon ISY ?

 

[gatchel]

Insteon is the new X-10 that is also backward compatible with X-10. The ISY device is a way to manage links and essentially back up all of the lighting devices and their interaction with each other. You don't need an ISY but it makes managing the system a lot easier. It also has timers, and logic that can make things happen.

Technically I think Insteon has more voltave when injecting signals into the powerline. Also, insteon uses digital signals where X-10 was analog. Some times noise on the powerline could turn on or off a device or impeade it from working. Insteon is much much less succeptable to these problems. If you want to know more about insteon check out:

www.cocoontech.com for unbiased opinions.

or

http://www.smarthome.com/forum/default.asp for a more filtered approach to Insteon.

 

[ixlr8]

The Insteon system can be a 'dual band' that is, RF and/or powerline. As Gatchel said, the Insteon powerline uses larger strength signals on the power line, it also places them in a different location on the power cycle. The Insteon signals are not compatiable with X-10 equipment, but the Insteon controllers have the abliity to also send out X-10 signals and that is what makes them backward compatable. The other thing that Insteon does, when it sends out the signal to a devise, it listens for an acknowledgement that the devise actually got the message. If it doesn't get the ACK message in the alloted time, it resends the original message, up to 3 times. X-10 just blindly sends out the command and hopes the device gets the message, X-10 devices have no way to acknowledge that they received the command. With Insteon, if your controller sends out an RF signal in addition to the powerline, then you can get two 'dual band' RF/Powerline LampLinc receivers, put one on each phase of your house power and each phase gets the full signal. No need to put in bridges between phases like you had to do with X-10.

HTH

 

[Weedwaka]

I have a lot of reading to do ....

 

[Brad Beam]

check out Control4. you can do everything you want with it