Garage Heating in Calgary, Canada

[bbursey]

Hi everyone!

I've been house-hunting and found an inner-city property that's under construction with nothing started on the garage - pretty ideal! The 28x20 exterior dimensions are the maximum allowed by the city lot coverage bylaws. I'm trying to squeeze a 3-car garage into that space as best I can.

Attached is my layout and it will have a vaulted ceiling that goes from 9.8' at top of walls to ~14' at peak. The walls would be 2x6 insulated and roof will have spray-foam insulation. The slab will be uninsulated, unfortunately. The lift will go on the right, parking of daily drivers on the left, and workbenches / storage along the back wall.

I've been leaning towards a mini split - hoping it can provide daily heat to take the edge off in winter, be cranked up slightly to make a reasonably comfortable work environment on the weekends, then. as a bonus, also cool the place a little in summer.

My real estate agent has proposed a radiant tube heater - I've never used one before. It wouldn't get me any A/C, but probably not a show stopper. I'm curious what others would recommend for heading this space.

Thanks,
Bryan

 

[Shiftless]

You’re gonna need a lot of BTU’s to warm up that space in your climate. Lots of days where the highs are below freezing and nights in the single digits. How well can you get the garage doors to seal? Cold drafts are a big problem for the heater to overcome. A big mini split would work.

 

[bbursey]

You’re gonna need a lot of BTU’s to warm up that space in your climate. Lots of days where the highs are below freezing and nights in the single digits. How well can you get the garage doors to seal? Cold drafts are a big problem for the heater to overcome. A big mini split would work.

A rough calculation suggested 18,000 BTU heating assuming relatively good insulation values - with doors and uninsulated slab, I figured I'd be looking at a 24,000 BTU mini split. I would certainly put effort into getting a good seal around doors, etc. and chase the building to keep construction as tight as possible.

Thanks,
B

 

[PoorUB]

A rough calculation suggested 18,000 BTU heating assuming relatively good insulation values - with doors and uninsulated slab, I figured I'd be looking at a 24,000 BTU mini split. I would certainly put effort into getting a good seal around doors, etc. and chase the building to keep construction as tight as possible.

Thanks,
B

Make sure you buy the correct mini split for your climate. You will need to buy a hyper heat or what ever the manufacturer you select calls them.
Most mini splits will not heat below 0F or about 18C. Also the BTU output drops in cold weather so just because someone says it will heat to -30C it doesn't mean you will get enough heat to keep the building warm, so watch the actual specs from the manufacturer.

 

[Jackfre]

As temps drop the output does decline, but at the lowest temp listed in the spec it will deliver the rate output, so at lowest temp a 24 will deliver 24kbtu.

 

[K13]

I am in Edmonton heat a 24X24 garage with a Mr Heater Big Max 45,000. Leave it set to about 5C and turn it up when I go out to work in the garage. Have had no issues getting up to temp easily even when it's -40.

 

[WisJim]

Is the slab already in place or is there another reason not to insulate under the slab? Can you at least insulate the perimeter of the slab, which should help a lot?

 

[jmdirk]

Given how cold it can get in Calgary, a good cold rated mini split could work. You just may have to suffer a bit more on those super cold days. But on those days where it's close to 0C or a bit lower it should do fine.

But if it's already under construction, definitely look at in floor radiant. Should be very comfortable and reasonably cost effective as you'd have NG available in the city presumably.

 

[Shop-hound]

My garage/workshop is a 24’x24’ in Calgary and Calcana radiant tube works great. It heats the slab itself which makes crawling on the floor under a car a lot nicer, plus when the door opens and shuts (we park in garage most days) the floor retains a lot of heat vs a forced air setup

Very rarely (like maybe 1-2 weeks a year) do I think that AC would be nice in the shop. Just not worth the expense in my opinion.

 

[jack stand]

I'm sorry but the first thing I hear from the OP is "that's all the city allows" and "trying to squeeze....".
Is there something special about this deal or location? Limitations and a sense that your going to "make do" before you start is not ideal.

 

[bbursey]

I'm sorry but the first thing I hear from the OP is "that's all the city allows" and "trying to squeeze....".
Is there something special about this deal or location? Limitations and a sense that your going to "make do" before you start is not ideal.

Thanks for the reply - these limitations are just a reality due to the other elements of my needs / wants list (e.g. inner city and within a budget). I’m trying to make the most of that reality and avoid suggestions to build bigger, etc. which aren’t possible.

Cheers,
B

 

[bbursey]

My garage/workshop is a 24’x24’ in Calgary and Calcana radiant tube works great. It heats the slab itself which makes crawling on the floor under a car a lot nicer, plus when the door opens and shuts (we park in garage most days) the floor retains a lot of heat vs a forced air setup

Very rarely (like maybe 1-2 weeks a year) do I think that AC would be nice in the shop. Just not worth the expense in my opinion.

Thanks for sharing your directly comparable experience. I did get an indication from the builder that a gas line was still cost effective to run back there, so a radiant tube heater is more viable than I thought! I hate getting overheated though, so maybe I keep but downsize the mini split.

Cheers,
B

 

[bbursey]

Is the slab already in place or is there another reason not to insulate under the slab? Can you at least insulate the perimeter of the slab, which should help a lot?

There’s no slab - I’ll have to ask about possibility of insulating under or around. I’ve got no idea how much extra that’s likely to be, so interested to see if it fits in the budget overall.

Thanks,
B

 

[HoosierBuddy]

IMHO the best, most cost effective solution for OP's situation is a natural gas fired unit heater exactly like K13 has described.

In floor radiant is great, but really a better solution where you want to heat 24 X 7 with not a lot of turn downs and turn ups as radiant heat takes a long time to respond.

I'm not a fan of gas fired overhead radiant tube heaters. I've seen them work kind of OK in industrial situations....but, to me, they are not a comfortable solution.

The mini-split would be great for AC and might be viable if you had the $ and inclination to run the heat all winter long, but you indicate you want to mostly heat it while you are using it (a much more economical alternative to 24X7 heating)....and your heat pump will struggle to do that. They just don't have the capacity to run a garage up from say 40 degrees F to 60 degrees F in the time it takes you to drink your Saturday morning coffee. The NG heater can do that.

And...they aren't super expensive.

All that being said...if you do have NG run to the house you should also get a natural gas water heater and consider a NG furnace for the house.

 

[cannuck]

If you really want a comfortable and affordable garage in your climate, spend a lot of time and money NOW on the insulation. Also make note of the comments about insulating your floor slab. I have a radiant tube NG heater in my backyard 1,000 sq.ft. garage, but I designed the building around it. Open to the peak down the middle where the heater hangs. Walls and work benches 20' away are quite comfortable as the heater tends to heat the slab and contents that radiate into the rest of the building. Radiant tubes in most garages are set on one end near the ceiling facing sideways. Have worked in a couple of those and don't particularly like how heat is distributed.

 

[PoorUB]

As temps drop the output does decline, but at the lowest temp listed in the spec it will deliver the rate output, so at lowest temp a 24 will deliver 24kbtu.

That is not what I have seen. What I have seen is the lowest temp it will heat, often at the point where the COP = one.

Take a look,

https://www.greecomfort.com/assets/...ocuments/livo-gen3-submittal-12mbh-230v-a.pdf

This unit heats until -4F, but it is about 50% output at that temp.

 

[Phuckin' Jim]

ASHP

ashp.neep.org

This one still produces over 100 percent of it's rated heating capacity at 5f (-15c).
It would also keep the garage cool in Calgary.
That being said, gas is cheap in Alberta and would be the cheapest way to heat the garage.

 

[rancherbill]

Hi, WELCOME I live just south of town near Okotoks.

I see you have two purposes for the area, first as a car house, and secondly as a workshop.

As a car house, cars come in hot and they will melt all the ice and snow off with just the heat of the engine.

As a workshop you need to plan ahead. You do not want to keep it at temperature all winter. There are many ways to do it and several have been suggested.

My son in Lethbridge went and got an electric heater at Princess Auto. It works very well. I have used construction heaters for years.

With a quick look, I used this one to heat and the other one above the bench to heat the tools I am going to be using. Turn them on the night before and they will be toasty hot by morning.

https://www.princessauto.com/en/750...ater-with-remote-control/product/PA0008993289

https://www.princessauto.com/en/1500w-quartz-ceiling-mounted-heater-with-light/product/PA0008944787

I would definitely get insulation under the concrete. All the mini splits require exterior approvals and dinking around and Gas just adds complexity and cost.

 

[bbursey]

If you really want a comfortable and affordable garage in your climate, spend a lot of time and money NOW on the insulation. Also make note of the comments about insulating your floor slab. I have a radiant tube NG heater in my backyard 1,000 sq.ft. garage, but I designed the building around it. Open to the peak down the middle where the heater hangs. Walls and work benches 20' away are quite comfortable as the heater tends to heat the slab and contents that radiate into the rest of the building. Radiant tubes in most garages are set on one end near the ceiling facing sideways. Have worked in a couple of those and don't particularly like how heat is distributed.

Thanks for the reply - would you mind sharing a photo of your tube heater? I think I'd sketched up a layout where I did exactly what you described in "most garages" and would be interested to see what you've done differently.

Cheers,
B

 

[bbursey]

Hi, WELCOME I live just south of town near Okotoks.

I see you have two purposes for the area, first as a car house, and secondly as a workshop.

As a car house, cars come in hot and they will melt all the ice and snow off with just the heat of the engine.

As a workshop you need to plan ahead. You do not want to keep it at temperature all winter. There are many ways to do it and several have been suggested.

My son in Lethbridge went and got an electric heater at Princess Auto. It works very well. I have used construction heaters for years.

With a quick look, I used this one to heat and the other one above the bench to heat the tools I am going to be using. Turn them on the night before and they will be toasty hot by morning.

https://www.princessauto.com/en/750...ater-with-remote-control/product/PA0008993289

https://www.princessauto.com/en/1500w-quartz-ceiling-mounted-heater-with-light/product/PA0008944787

I would definitely get insulation under the concrete. All the mini splits require exterior approvals and dinking around and Gas just adds complexity and cost.

Thanks for the feedback - I had a very basic electric unit heater in my prior garage in Cleveland, OH. It worked well, but that wasn't a new build. I wanted to explore all the options and appreciate all the info shared in this thread to help me out.

I will be talking to the builder about insulating the slab - that's sounding more and more like a no-brainer if I'm going to heat the garage.

Cheers,
B

 

[cannuck]

Thanks for the reply - would you mind sharing a photo of your tube heater? I think I'd sketched up a layout where I did exactly what you described in "most garages" and would be interested to see what you've done differently.

Cheers,
B

sorry for the crude sketch but couldn't find the drawings (from 39 years ago). Photo wouldn't show as much I don't think. The box at the bottom end of the overhead view is the burner for the heater tube. Had to take it down when they put gas line overhead (!!) as the manufacturer of the burner was a different one than the tube and the company that built the tube (long gone) used illegal venting. Might pull the whole thing out through South wall and put a new one in with burner at opposite end, as my gas vent now exists South side where it has to go through a tension fabric shelter over the rest of the yard (my "outer" unheated storage area). Mine is not a parking garage, there is one work bay (10 x 26) down the middle covered by a half ton overhead crane. East side has machine tools and west side welding/fab tools areas. Has to be sliding door to allow heater tube to work. Works (worked, not enough room anymore) for me, but not exactly car friendly

 

[theoldwizard1]

I've been house-hunting and found an inner-city property that's under construction with nothing started on the garage - pretty ideal! The 28x20 exterior dimensions are the maximum allowed by the city lot coverage bylaws. I'm trying to squeeze a 3-car garage into that space as best I can.

You will never get 3 cars in there unless they are very small cars !

I've been leaning towards a mini split - hoping it can provide daily heat to take the edge off in winter, be cranked up slightly to make a reasonably comfortable work environment on the weekends, then. as a bonus, also cool the place a little in summer.

Go with the mini-split, but "buyer beware" ! Not all will make heat below 0°C (or even 5°C).

You may require an extra fan to spread the heat/cool around.

 

[bbursey]

You will never get 3 cars in there unless they are very small cars !


Go with the mini-split, but "buyer beware" ! Not all will make heat below 0°C (or even 5°C).

You may require an extra fan to spread the heat/cool around.

I’m a small car guy… two of the three are a Lotus and a Spec Miata race car. The daily driver is a little bigger.

Assuming I select the correct mini split for my conditions (winter heat), can I can why that would be your recommendation?

Thanks!
B

 

[theoldwizard1]

Thanks for the feedback - I had a very basic electric unit heater in my prior garage in Cleveland, OH. It worked well, but that wasn't a new build. I wanted to explore all the options and appreciate all the info shared in this thread to help me out.

I will be talking to the builder about insulating the slab - that's sounding more and more like a no-brainer if I'm going to heat the garage.

Mini-splits use MUCH LESS POWER in the 0°C to 15°C range than an electric unit heater !

Slab insulation is highly desirable ! At a minimum, you need a vapor barrier. I am not sure if this is a net save or cost. 2 layers of 2.5 cm foam board, taped, installed crisscrossed, with no overlapping seams does not require additional vapor barrier.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Assuming I select the correct mini split for my conditions (winter heat), can I can why that would be your recommendation ?

First, you want cooling. Difficult with radiant tube or hanging furnace.

Second, even though mini-splits are expensive to install, they are very efficient especially in the 0°C to 15°C range. They will pay for themselves over time. That time depends on the cost of your other fuel. Cheapest is natural gas, forced air, and NO A/C !

 

[PhantomEB]

Coming from a born and raised Calgarian, I would not bother with the mini split.

my first garage at my parents place in Pineridge had lots of gaps in the doors which allowed heat to escape faster than it could be made by the Princess Auto Mr Heater 45000.

then in Coventry Hills, I built my 24x24 with 9’6” walls, almost no gaps in the doors and a Modine Big Maxx 45000 this time, it was hoodie and shorts in that garage any day of the winter. The T16 doors from Steelcraft I think it is on Ogden Rd, just down the street from Rona, kept the heat from the south facing 18x9 door well out, dual ceiling fans helped.

then brings me to my 26x24 down here in Medicine Hat, the first winter I yanked out the previous owner’s installation of a radiant heater down one side after I found out how much I hated the loss of headroom and inefficiency of only heating things close by the heater.

installed another Modine Big Maxx 45000 and one ceiling fan. Have loved it ever since. This year I am replacing the flimsy garage door with another T16 one along with liftmaster 8500 like I had In Coventry then I shouldn’t need the AC unit when it’s another summer of +30 all summer long.

 

[tfi racing]

Coming from a born and raised Calgarian, I would not bother with the mini split.

my first garage at my parents place in Pineridge had lots of gaps in the doors which allowed heat to escape faster than it could be made by the Princess Auto Mr Heater 45000.

then in Coventry Hills, I built my 24x24 with 9’6” walls, almost no gaps in the doors and a Modine Big Maxx 45000 this time, it was hoodie and shorts in that garage any day of the winter. The T16 doors from Steelcraft I think it is on Ogden Rd, just down the street from Rona, kept the heat from the south facing 18x9 door well out, dual ceiling fans helped.

then brings me to my 26x24 down here in Medicine Hat, the first winter I yanked out the previous owner’s installation of a radiant heater down one side after I found out how much I hated the loss of headroom and inefficiency of only heating things close by the heater.

installed another Modine Big Maxx 45000 and one ceiling fan. Have loved it ever since. This year I am replacing the flimsy garage door with another T16 one along with liftmaster 8500 like I had In Coventry then I shouldn’t need the AC unit when it’s another summer of +30 all summer long.

Follow this guy's advice, natural gas heat is the way to go for a garage in the frozen tundra.

 

[PoorUB]

installed another Modine Big Maxx 45000 and one ceiling fan

Just a clarification, Modine does not build the Big Maxx, never have! The Big Max is built by Mr. Heater.

 

[rancherbill]

I re-looked at your plans. You are missing a bunch of wall plugs. You are missing the garage door opener plug. In my garage, the Garage door openers are on a switch - I can turn them off at night or when I go away. They do not have to be gfci plugs. I do not see the drop plug for the lift.

I like the sloping floor. I have it in my garage and all the **** flows to a drain. Your flows outside which is ok. For one car, that driver will step out onto clean floor, for the other driver they will step out onto to wet floor, so you need to think it through with mats or something.

Find out about the spray insulation for your ceiling. I really know very little, but I know there's the different grades and costs. Get the good stuff - High RSI / unit.

Builders buy the cheapest doors they can, and as a result they have cheap insulation. It's a question to ask is what is the insulation value.

 

[isb cornbinder]

I left Calgary for the West Coast 52 years ago. We lived in Meadowlark Park. I went to Henry Wise Wood and SAIT.
My Dad built a 25' by 25' garage in 1961.
Does Calgary have a Board of Variance where a resident can appeal the size bylaw for a larger garage?
I appealed to the Board of Variance here in Burnaby and I was allowed to build 865 sq/ft. The regulation size is 400sq/ft.

 

[bbursey]

I re-looked at your plans. You are missing a bunch of wall plugs. You are missing the garage door opener plug. In my garage, the Garage door openers are on a switch - I can turn them off at night or when I go away. They do not have to be gfci plugs. I do not see the drop plug for the lift.

I like the sloping floor. I have it in my garage and all the **** flows to a drain. Your flows outside which is ok. For one car, that driver will step out onto clean floor, for the other driver they will step out onto to wet floor, so you need to think it through with mats or something.

Find out about the spray insulation for your ceiling. I really know very little, but I know there's the different grades and costs. Get the good stuff - High RSI / unit.

Builders buy the cheapest doors they can, and as a result they have cheap insulation. It's a question to ask is what is the insulation value.

Thanks for the reply. I think I've got the wall plugs covered - see all the green boxes (3 sets along the back wall, one on each side wall, two sets in the ceiling for the lift / trickle chargers, and one at each of the garage door openers.

I'd have some slope inside the double door, but looking for the single bay to be completely flat - for stability of the lift (albeit not required) and to simplify use of my alignment tools (otherwise I have to level the scales each time I set them up).

Re: insulation, that's definitely one topic I need to have the builder specify before I'll agree to proceed. No point in spending all the money elsewhere if I'm going to freeze to death or spend a ton of money just to avoid hypothermia!

Cheers,
B

 

[bbursey]

I left Calgary for the West Coast 52 years ago. We lived in Meadowlark Park. I went to Henry Wise Wood and SAIT.
My Dad built a 25' by 25' garage in 1961.
Does Calgary have a Board of Variance where a resident can appeal the size bylaw for a larger garage?
I appealed to the Board of Variance here in Burnaby and I was allowed to build 865 sq/ft. The regulation size is 400sq/ft.

That's exactly what I need to figure out... I'm doubtful about a variance on size given the neighbourhood, but I'd like to get some relaxation of floor slope (for sure) and maybe a few other small items.

Cheers,
B

 

[bbursey]

Coming from a born and raised Calgarian, I would not bother with the mini split.

my first garage at my parents place in Pineridge had lots of gaps in the doors which allowed heat to escape faster than it could be made by the Princess Auto Mr Heater 45000.

then in Coventry Hills, I built my 24x24 with 9’6” walls, almost no gaps in the doors and a Modine Big Maxx 45000 this time, it was hoodie and shorts in that garage any day of the winter. The T16 doors from Steelcraft I think it is on Ogden Rd, just down the street from Rona, kept the heat from the south facing 18x9 door well out, dual ceiling fans helped.

then brings me to my 26x24 down here in Medicine Hat, the first winter I yanked out the previous owner’s installation of a radiant heater down one side after I found out how much I hated the loss of headroom and inefficiency of only heating things close by the heater.

installed another Modine Big Maxx 45000 and one ceiling fan. Have loved it ever since. This year I am replacing the flimsy garage door with another T16 one along with liftmaster 8500 like I had In Coventry then I shouldn’t need the AC unit when it’s another summer of +30 all summer long.

Thanks for sharing the journey - hopefully it helps me learn at least a couple of lessons the easy way.

Cheers,
B

 

[bbursey]

First, you want cooling. Difficult with radiant tube or hanging furnace.

Second, even though mini-splits are expensive to install, they are very efficient especially in the 0°C to 15°C range. They will pay for themselves over time. That time depends on the cost of your other fuel. Cheapest is natural gas, forced air, and NO A/C !

Fair enough - thanks for the clarity!

 

[bbursey]

sorry for the crude sketch but couldn't find the drawings (from 39 years ago). Photo wouldn't show as much I don't think. The box at the bottom end of the overhead view is the burner for the heater tube. Had to take it down when they put gas line overhead (!!) as the manufacturer of the burner was a different one than the tube and the company that built the tube (long gone) used illegal venting. Might pull the whole thing out through South wall and put a new one in with burner at opposite end, as my gas vent now exists South side where it has to go through a tension fabric shelter over the rest of the yard (my "outer" unheated storage area). Mine is not a parking garage, there is one work bay (10 x 26) down the middle covered by a half ton overhead crane. East side has machine tools and west side welding/fab tools areas. Has to be sliding door to allow heater tube to work. Works (worked, not enough room anymore) for me, but not exactly car friendly

Thanks for taking the time to provide the sketch!

Cheers,
B

 

[Yankeefarmer]

IMHO ….

The mini-split would be great for AC and might be viable if you had the $ and inclination to run the heat all winter long, but you indicate you want to mostly heat it while you are using it (a much more economical alternative to 24X7 heating)....and your heat pump will struggle to do that. They just don't have the capacity to run a garage up from say 40 degrees F to 60 degrees F in the time it takes you to drink your Saturday morning coffee. The NG heater can do that.

…

I cringe every time I read something like this, for the following reasons:
- My heat pump heats my 26 x 48 x 15 shop from 45 deg F to 61 deg F every morning.
- A BTU is a BTU, regardless of source
-With today’s WiFi connected shops, there’s no need to heat ”in the time it takes to drink your coffee.” If you know you are heading out there, start the warmup early enough for it to be comfortable, when you go out.
-Regardless of heat source, it should be sized appropriately.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

I cringe every time I read something like this, for the following reasons:
- My heat pump heats my 26 x 48 x 15 shop from 45 deg F to 61 deg F every morning.
- A BTU is a BTU, regardless of source
-With today’s WiFi connected shops, there’s no need to heat ”in the time it takes to drink your coffee.” If you know you are heading out there, start the warmup early enough for it to be comfortable, when you go out.
-Regardless of heat source, it should be sized appropriately.

Is your heat pump doing this with the heat pump itself, or falling back on emergency resistance heat?

I've dealt with customers who set back thermostats on heat pumps on a regular basis, then got hammered with huge power bills, because every time they cranked the t-stat the heat pump would fall back to the auxiliary resistance elements. If the emergency resistance comes in it drops the COP of the heat pump from maybe 4.0 to 1.0, which would equate to 4 times the expense per btu. So, for this reason I disagree. A btu is not a btu, because the cost to either pump that btu from the outside or "create" it directly with resistance, or "create" it through a combustion process all has an associated cost/btu. As consumers convenience, comfort and cost are all legitimate reasons to consider where our btu comes from.

 

[Yankeefarmer]

No aux heating strips installed.

 

[Harryn]

Hey I am going through this exact something in Calgary. It is true that there are land use bylaws that restrict the size of a garage. One of the two big restrictions are total site coverage. In Calgary you cannot go over 45% total site cover. So the footprint of the house and garage as a percentage of the lot. The second big restriction is for a lot that has a single residential development the garage cannot be over 800 SF. But here is the good news is you can apply for a relaxation the bylaws. This is done by application for a development permit. The land use and planning department reviews the application and if they have no objections then it goes out for public consultation. After the a seven day public posting (usually by small sign on the front lawn) and if no complaints filed you would be approved. This is all a pain in the a$$, cost money, and takes 3-4 months, but is can be done. After the Development permit (DP) you then need a building permit like any other conforming build.

That is exactly what I am doing. My garage has not started construction yet but I have an approved development permit for 26X34 garage. I am now waiting for the frost to be out of the ground before concrete goes down.

Just so you know you can also get approved for a zero lot line as long as the eves or noting else protrudes over the lot line, and very important that it is a fire rated exterior wall. I am not sure what that means exactly but concrete or brick would probably work

As for heating my garage I think will be going with a forced air unit. Heat pumps are not that popular here in Calgary and I think that is for a reason.

Harry

 

[Phuckin' Jim]

As for heating my garage I think will be going with a forced air unit. Heat pumps are not that popular here in Calgary and I think that is for a reason.

Harry

Heat pumps aren't popular there because of the price of electricity compared to nat gas.

A good friend of mine is successfully using one to heat and cool a garage near Winnipeg.
Winters in Wpg are quite a bit colder than Calgary, but nat gas is more expensive around here, compared to electricity.
Plus our summers are hot and humid so AC is almost essential.
Like others have said, choose carefully if you do a heat pump, as not all of them work well in the cold.
The old R-22 systems didn't produce much heat in the colder weather, giving heat pumps in general a bad name.