help with sink drain issue : (

[handyman2020]

The Sink drain broke so I replaced it.

Before sink drain replacement, everything was functioning properly until I disassembled abs piping out and the Rubber join coupler (abs 1 1/2 to copper 1 1/4). After reassembling it, the P trap is not draining correctly, and it only drains when the nut of the Rubber join coupler is kept loose ( Check photo ) .

However, if it is kept loose, it leaks drain water. Previously, the same Rubber coupler/joiner was working fine before I opened it.


Could you kindly suggest a solution for fixing this issue with the current setup?

Alternatively, would it be possible for you to recommend a better replacement or installation method that would prevent this issue from recurring in the future?

Unfortunately, I cannot remove the copper drain pipe as it goes into the basement, and it would be quite inconvenient to replace it at this time. Thank you for your kind assistance.

 

[Drill Sergeant Arc]

It could be because you have a smaller diameter copper pipe then the P-trap set before it. P- trap drain kits come in 1-1/4” and 1-1/2” sizes. Try to match your copper pipe diameter. The water needs to speed up when going through a restricted section because it’s trying to match the volume flowing through the larger diameter pipe before it, which is what happens when the pipe diameters get smaller down stream instead of bigger, and so it can’t speed up because it is pulling a vacuum behind it that slows the overall flow. When you loosen the clamp you eliminate the vacuum and allow the water to speed up so it can match the volume of the larger diameter section before it. But you get the leak that goes with it. So, always run pipe smaller to bigger to eliminate the vacuum problem.

 

[mogandave]

Was there a vent on the part you replace?

 

[handyman2020]

It could be because you have a smaller diameter copper pipe then the P-trap set before it. P- trap drain kits come in 1-1/4” and 1-1/2” sizes. Try to match your copper pipe diameter. The water needs to speed up when going through a restricted section which is what happens when the pipe diameters get smaller down stream instead of bigger, and so it can’t speed up because it is pulling a vacuum behind it that slows the overall flow. When you loosen the clamp you eliminate the vacuum and allow the water to speed up so it can match the volume of the larger diameter section before it.

why was it working before then? All i did was replace those 2 parts in last photo in red circle, 'sink drain' and that 'rubber tee' "
what should I buy now to fix this issue, please share

 

[handyman2020]

It could be because you have a smaller diameter copper pipe then the P-trap set before it. P- trap drain kits come in 1-1/4” and 1-1/2” sizes. Try to match your copper pipe diameter. The water needs to speed up when going through a restricted section which is what happens when the pipe diameters get smaller down stream instead of bigger, and so it can’t speed up because it is pulling a vacuum behind it that slows the overall flow. When you loosen the clamp you eliminate the vacuum and allow the water to speed up so it can match the volume of the larger diameter section before it.

the abs tee in last photo which i cut out and then replaced with rubber coupler/joiner doesnt have any vent

 

[Drill Sergeant Arc]

Your old pipe had a layer of gunk that reduced the flow to match your copper pipe’s diameter, it only takes one spot to cause the restriction. When your old P-trap was new it probably worked poorly and it’s low flow actually caused the build up that slowed the flow to the point it worked better over time. But that lowered flow allows build up that will eventually cause the need to clean or replace the P-trap. I had added to my first post when you responded so check it out it explains it a little better.

 

[mogandave]

the abs tee in last photo which i cut out and then replaced with rubber coupler/joiner doesnt have any vent

I think there’s a vent hole in the Tee

 

[handyman2020]

I think there’s a vent hole in the Tee

I just blew air with my mouth with 2 end closed in the tee, and there is no vent the older tee.

 

[handyman2020]

Your old pipe had a layer of gunk that reduced the flow to match your copper pipe’s diameter, it only takes one spot to cause the restriction. When your old P-trap was new it probably worked poorly and it’s low flow actually caused the build up that slowed the flow to the point it worked better over time. But that lowered flow allows build up that will eventually cause the need to clean out or replace the P-trap. I had added to my first post when you responded so check it out it explains it a little better.

please tell me what is the solution now? I am slow learner and poor with comprehension.

 

[Drill Sergeant Arc]

So, plumbing always needs to go from smaller diameters at sink and tub drains to gradually larger diameters as the different sections like the kitchen and bathroom drain pipes come together and the sizes just keep getting larger to handle the increased volume. All vertical sections should be vented to the roof to avoid the problem your having right now. There should be a vertical pipe that vents out the roof at the wall next to the sink and the P-trap drain should go directly into it. But that is beyond this fix at this time.

Your P-trap diameter is larger then the copper pipe diameter and that causes a vacuum to build behind the water that has increased in speed as it moves through the smaller diameter copper pipe. In a correctly done system there would be a larger diameter vertical pipe that went straight up and vented out the roof. For example, it would be 2” diameter and the drain pipe from the sink and the P-trap would both be no larger then 1-1/2” diameter.

So, the vertical section of copper not being vented causes a very significant vacuum and it is made worse by the larger diameter pipe before it. As I said before, it worked better before because there was a buildup in the P-trap that reduced the flow volume in the ABS section to somewhat similar to that of the copper pipe.

When you did your work on it you cleared that restriction out so now you’ve increased that section’s volume and increased the vacuum available at the beginning of the water flow in the copper pipe. So change out the ABS section to the same size or smaller of the copper section and it will be better then what you have. That vertical section of copper is hopefully not to tall and is connected to a vented pipe close by. I suspect it is because if it weren’t this would be a bigger problem then it is.

 

[flat350]

Myself being a 45 year retired Plumber I'm going to be the first to say " call a Plumber " , there's a lot that needs fixing under that sink, like the S trap drain, overuse of hose clamps, and Fernco's. A decent Plumber can make it work with the S trap and clean up and repipe the rest in an hour. It starts with the correct adapter being soldered onto the copper and working from there.
You said you tried elevating the trap and it still didn't drain, it probably will if you lower the trap some. That piece of horizontal copper with the rubber reducing coupling has WAY too much pitch on it, the copper piece probably has 3/4" or more over 6", a 1/4" over a foot is more than enough. Google fixture arm or trap weir and it may help you understand.

 

[cgrutt]

Installing an air admittance valve on a tee where that rubber Fernco fitting is may provide any venting that is now occurring with loose fitting absent the leak but long term I'd do what these guys are recommending above.

 

[BillK]

Something does not make sense. All you did was replace those two parts ? You did not change anything else ? Why did you change them ? Is that a second sink of to the side ? Does it drain ok ? Just realized that is a garbage disposal. Does that side drain ok ?

 

[BillK]

Any luck ? Sure wish there was a picture from before you started.

 

[handyman2020]

Any luck ? Sure wish there was a picture from before you started.

no, i dont have any.

 

[handyman2020]

Installing an air admittance valve on a tee where that rubber Fernco fitting is may provide any venting that is now occurring with loose fitting absent the leak but long term I'd do what these guys are recommending above.

Yes, I am installing an AAV now

 

[handyman2020]

Something does not make sense. All you did was replace those two parts ? You did not change anything else ? Why did you change them ? Is that a second sink of to the side ? Does it drain ok ? Just realized that is a garbage disposal. Does that side drain ok ?

I changed because the sink drain rotted out and broke on me (first photo)
Drain was all clean even before the sink drain threads broke after rotting.
Yes, all drains are ok.

I think what happened is whoever did this installation decades ago, he used frenco fitting to join abs pipe with copper drain and let the frenco little bit loose so it can let some air in, and when I removed the frenco from copper drain and abs and put it back I tightened it and then it became too tight and wont let any air in.

so now I will install AAV vent.

but I am confused now, my washroom sink doesnt have any AAV and it works great but its smaller pipe size than this kitchen 1 1/2abs.

why does kitchen drain needs aav and washroom sink is working fine without aav.

thankyou

 

[Jim greengo]

The Sink drain broke so I replaced it.

Before sink drain replacement, everything was functioning properly until I disassembled abs piping out and the Rubber join coupler (abs 1 1/2 to copper 1 1/4). After reassembling it, the P trap is not draining correctly, and it only drains when the nut of the Rubber join coupler is kept loose ( Check photo ) .

However, if it is kept loose, it leaks drain water. Previously, the same Rubber coupler/joiner was working fine before I opened it.


Could you kindly suggest a solution for fixing this issue with the current setup?

Alternatively, would it be possible for you to recommend a better replacement or installation method that would prevent this issue from recurring in the future?

Unfortunately, I cannot remove the copper drain pipe as it goes into the basement, and it would be quite inconvenient to replace it at this time. Thank you for your kind assistance.

Your vent is on the wrong side of trap.

 

[handyman2020]

Your vent is on the wrong side of trap.

what do you mean by that? I dont understand, how should it be :S
before I un-installed everything it was same as I put it back.

 

[Jim greengo]

Cut off that copper 90,and put your San tee in place of it.
Run up and around the sink as high as you can out from top of San tee and mount your aav/trailer vent.

 

[handyman2020]

Cut off that copper 90,and put your San tee in place of it.
Run up and around the sink as high as you can out from top of San tee and mount your aav/trailer vent.

if I understood correctly,
you meant following?


whats the best way to connect abs san tee and that copper pipe?

 

[cgrutt]

but I am confused now, my washroom sink doesnt have any AAV and it works great but its smaller pipe size than this kitchen 1 1/2abs.

why does kitchen drain needs aav and washroom sink is working fine without aav.

Just a WAG but is sink downstream of washroom? Could be washroom ties into sewer line right at vent (which is probably inside wall and runs to roof) but sink is on same line but further from vent?

If you're installing the AAV best to do what was recommended above and eliminate the 90 deg copper and Fernco fitting altogether. Connect tee into copper pipe vertically, run trap right into tee and put AAV as high up within cabinet as you can get it.

 

[handyman2020]

Just a WAG but is sink downstream of washroom? Could be washroom ties into sewer line right at vent (which is probably inside wall and runs to roof) but sink is on same line but further from vent?

If you're installing the AAV best to do what was recommended above and eliminate the 90 deg copper and Fernco fitting altogether. Connect tee into copper pipe vertically, run trap right into tee and put AAV as high up within cabinet as you can get it.

I looked at youtube and most people are using frenco to connect plastic & iron, or plastic & copper.

I guess that is my only option to get mate plastic with metal?

 

[cgrutt]

^^^ probably easiest transition did you say your copper pipe is 1-1/4? Pic above is 1-1/2 to 1-1/2. Image you could also solder an NPT fitting onto copper and use a threaded pvc/abs fitting. There may also be some compression adapters. The Proflex would work though.

 

[Jim greengo]

I

if I understood correctly,
you meant following?


whats the best way to connect abs san tee and that copper pipe?

M not a fan of abs,I'd use pvc and an 1 1/2" copper to pvc no hub coupling myself.
Glue a short piece of pvc to bottom of San tee to connect coupling to.

 

[handyman2020]

^^^ probably easiest transition did you say your copper pipe is 1-1/4? Pic above is 1-1/2 to 1-1/2. Image you could also solder an NPT fitting onto copper and use a threaded pvc/abs fitting. There may also be some compression adapters. The Proflex would work though.

please can you help one last time, I am ready to solder BUT I cant find the right NPT fitting for my copper pipe

the copper pipe i have is 1-1/4 Trade Size, 1.660 nom OD, that is the copper pipe for drain,
I dont want to use Frenco, please can you tell me which adapter/fitting should I look for?

I tried looking for last 1 hour and best I could find is this product, not sure if this will fit my abs 1-1/2

COFADM1E : Bow 1-1/4" Copper C x Male PT Adapter | AMRE Supply

Buy COFADM1E : Bow 1-1/4" Copper C x Male PT Adapter at Amre Supply - Property Performance Centres with 13 locations across Canada

www.amresupply.com

I will appreciate if you can give a link for NPT fitting please.

Regards

 

[cgrutt]

please can you help one last time, I am ready to solder BUT I cant find the right NPT fitting for my copper pipe

the copper pipe i have is 1-1/4 Trade Size, 1.660 nom OD, that is the copper pipe for drain,
I dont want to use Frenco, please can you tell me which adapter/fitting should I look for?

I tried looking for last 1 hour and best I could find is this product, not sure if this will fit my abs 1-1/2

COFADM1E : Bow 1-1/4" Copper C x Male PT Adapter | AMRE Supply

Buy COFADM1E : Bow 1-1/4" Copper C x Male PT Adapter at Amre Supply - Property Performance Centres with 13 locations across Canada

www.amresupply.com

I will appreciate if you can give a link for NPT fitting please.

Regards

Hey happy to help but please note I'm not a plumber just DYIer so take it for what it's worth. I "think" fitting that you posted would provide 1-1/4" male NPT. You would need a reducer bushing bringing 1-1/2" pcv (or ABS, but recommend running the trap etc in pcv if you can) to 1-1/4" female NPT. Then you can just glue everything to adapter. I think this is basically what you're looking for in addition to copper adapter that you posted above. Note I think this is ABS but same thing should be available in PVC. Hope this helps.

ETA it says it's PVC but usually black is ABS in my experience.

 

[flat350]

Are you sure you're dealing with 1 1/4" pipe, any chart I look at says that 1 1/2" copper is 1.625 O.D. , If you're measuring the pipe at a 1.660 O.D. seems like it's 1 1/2" ?

 

[handyman2020]

Are you sure you're dealing with 1 1/4" pipe, any chart I look at says that 1 1/2" copper is 1.625 O.D. , If you're measuring the pipe at a 1.660 O.D. seems like it's 1 1/2" ?

Yes, you are right, its 1.62inches OD, so its 1 1/2makes complete sense,

@cgrutt my apologies, I messed up the measurements.

 

[cgrutt]

No worries need similar adapter just adjust sizes accordingly. 1-1/2 is better for drain anyway. I'd run the whole trap in 1-1/2 pvc if you are able to. Good luck.

 

[handyman2020]

Are you sure you're dealing with 1 1/4" pipe, any chart I look at says that 1 1/2" copper is 1.625 O.D. , If you're measuring the pipe at a 1.660 O.D. seems like it's 1 1/2" ?

hi, I am confused, I tried to look online and i saw couple charts and they are all pointing to 1 1/2 pipe size for 1.6OD

National Standard Taper Pipe Threads Size NPT Chart

This engineering reference chart is of the National Standard Taper Pipe Threads Size NPT and Includes both External and internal Pipe Thread Data.

www.engineersedge.com

this says 1 1/4" inch for 1.66 OD

 

[flat350]

That chart is for iron pipe you're not using iron pipe, you have copper tube. Solder a 1 1/2" DWV X MIP adapter on it and be done with it, they can be had in cast or wrot copper . As for the rest of the piping you have many different choices of materials and connection types to pick from, SCH. 40 ABS, SCH 40 PVC, brass tubular compression, PVC tubular compression.

Copper Tube Handbook: Table 14.2b

Dimensions and Physical Characteristics of Copper Tube: Type L

www.copper.org

 

[handyman2020]

That chart is for iron pipe you're not using iron pipe, you have copper tube. Solder a 1 1/2" DWV X MIP adapter on it and be done with it, they can be had in cast or wrot copper . As for the rest of the piping you have many different choices of materials and connection types to pick from, SCH. 40 ABS, SCH 40 PVC, brass tubular compression, PVC tubular compression.

Copper Tube Handbook: Table 14.2b

Dimensions and Physical Characteristics of Copper Tube: Type L

www.copper.org

thanks a lot, i will print that table and put it somewhere in my tool box.

@flat350 which one to buy from options below?

 

[flat350]

#2 or #4, #4 will be a little easier for a novice to solder. Cleanliness is your friend when soldering copper, clean the pipe and fitting real good, a little flux and solder away.

 

[handyman2020]

#2 or #4, #4 will be a little easier for a novice to solder. Cleanliness is your friend when soldering copper, clean the pipe and fitting real good, a little flux and solder away.

you are awesome, thanks so much for all the help, God bless you @flat350 @cgrutt and everyone else taking time to help me out here.