The joys of buying old work...

[Noltz]

I've been working through the mess of electrical in a pole barn on my new property. Honestly the guy went way overboard in most cases, such as every single outlet is on it's own circuit. Lots of cost cutting too like a recycled Federal panel and many two pole breakers but each side feeding a different plug. Breakers are $25 a pop for this thing and he's already recycled the panel so I get it. I decided to finish off a couple outlets the P.O. didn't & pull all the outlets one at a time to make sure everything is tight before I just assume it's good. Imagine my surprise when I see this. The hot is right, but the neutrals are connected and the neutral screws connected to the ground? I think to myself WTF? This isn't right at all. But no big deal, I'll just correct the wiring.

So I do. I snug it up all grounded and feeling smug to myself. Plug in my old CO detector because it beeps when the power goes on. Go flip the breaker. "Beep... BANG!"

Err, that's not right. Shut the breaker off, go look at the plug. CO detector smelling all sorts of wrong. Recheck my work, looks good. Open the panel; They've got the white wired to another breaker and didn't mark it in the box. I'd just created a 240v plug.



So I have no idea where the other wire in this box goes off too but it was clearly a 240v feed to something, and farmer Joe wanted to put a 120 right here. Because both wires were hot and both were on the same twin breaker when I shut off "Plug 6" I shut off both sides of it. And of course when I put a lamp in it as-was it worked. Would I have fried one of those plug-in testers? I guess it would have detected the neutral / ground connection here?

 

[Junkman]

Toss the old Federal box into the trash, and start over. I see a lot of Square D boxes loaded with the QO breakers at swap meets here in New England. They sell cheap, and I just use the breakers. In the end, you will save your sanity and will have peace of mind. I only do the basics, and never get too deep into wiring, just enough to keep the lights on without burning down the place.

 

[klassenl]

Toss the old Federal box into the trash, and start over. I see a lot of Square D boxes loaded with the QO breakers at swap meets here in New England. They sell cheap, and I just use the breakers. In the end, you will save your sanity and will have peace of mind. I only do the basics, and never get too deep into wiring, just enough to keep the lights on without burning down the place.

Keep the Federal they are the best. And figuring out some one else's work is always fun. One wire at a time is my advice.

 

[kaymccampbell]

Keep the Federal they are the best. And figuring out some one else's work is always fun. One wire at a time is my advice.

I'd have reservations about a Federal breaker box. Federal bought back all 3 of my breaker boxes, and replaced them with brand new fuse boxes.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Keep the Federal they are the best. And figuring out some one else's work is always fun. One wire at a time is my advice.

I sure hope youre kidding. Federal pacific electric is absolute trash

 

[Noltz]

Yes that's absolutely the plan. Wylie mentioned the same months ago when I was trying to identify it. I'll have an electrician swap it to my preferred Siemens later this year. I'll need to have the meter pulled to swap them. Might be worth getting the Generlink installed at the same time?

 

[sparky 1971]

I'd be willing to bet that the receptacle in question wasn't previously a 240 volt, but part of a farmers version of a MWBC. It doesn't matter, it's not right and needs fixed regardless of what it is/was.

 

[klassenl]

I sure hope youre kidding. Federal pacific electric is absolute trash

Federal is the best.

 

[Norcal]

Federal is the best.

What are you smoking???

 

[nadogail]

Federal Pacific and Zinsco are two brands of electrical equipment that, IMHO; are worth only scrap value.

 

[Norcal]

Federal Pacific and Zinsco are two brands of electrical equipment that, IMHO; are worth only scrap value.

You forgot the new Zinsco, Eaton BR.

 

[sparky 1971]

You forgot the new Zinsco, Eaton BR.

Other than the aluminum bus, what's the problem with BR? I don't use them and rarely ever see them, but I've never heard anything bad about them apart from this site. I don't recall ever seeing a failure with a BR panel other than a couple of bad breakers, but I've changed a lot of Square D and Siemens breakers too.

 

[Noltz]

So I have no idea where the other wire in this box goes off too but it was clearly a 240v feed to something,...

Turns out it wasn't to a 240 load but 120v wired to the opposite leg and again using the ground for neutral. Was this ever common? The house is quite old - old enough that the original lighting was gas lamps. Just trying to understand why it'd be wired this way. To save one conductor?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Using the ground as a neutral has never been kosher or code compliant. Only ignorant dangerous people use it to save on wire but it should never be done

 

[American Locomotive]

Other than the aluminum bus, what's the problem with BR? I don't use them and rarely ever see them, but I've never heard anything bad about them apart from this site. I don't recall ever seeing a failure with a BR panel other than a couple of bad breakers, but I've changed a lot of Square D and Siemens breakers too.

There is nothing wrong with BR. If there was, there would be safety recalls and lawsuits.

 

[Norcal]

There is nothing wrong with BR. If there was, there would be safety recalls and lawsuits.

Zinsco was never recalled.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Zinsco was never recalled.

Nor was FPE...

 

[American Locomotive]

Which in both cases means that the issues those panels had were likely greatly exaggerated. If there were tremendous, wide-spread, house-burning problems, the U.S. CPSC would have mandated a recall.

Same thing with the Eaton BR panels. If they had wide-spread issues, they would be recalled.

 

[Norcal]

Which in both cases means that the issues those panels had were likely greatly exaggerated. If there were tremendous, wide-spread, house-burning problems, the U.S. CPSC would have mandated a recall.

Same thing with the Eaton BR panels. If they had wide-spread issues, they would be recalled.

They have the same crappy AL bus as Zinsco, and what has been said that they were never recalled, quite doubtful Eaton BR will either, but it is still garbage like Zinsco, & FPE. Any other make/model panel is a major improvement, even GE.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Nor was FPE...

When Reliance bought FPE they did an audit and discovered minor changes (different materials vendors, etc.) which would have triggered a new UL listing.
They were without a listing for about 9 months.
The old UL stickers were yellow, the new were magenta.
The new breakers were still the same as the old, without any changes.

 

[American Locomotive]

They have the same crappy AL bus as Zinsco, and what has been said that they were never recalled, quite doubtful Eaton BR will either, but it is still garbage like Zinsco, & FPE. Any other make/model panel is a major improvement, even GE.

Yup, so even further proof that there was likely never any real issue. Just exaggerated hyperbole, likely from poorly done original installs. If BR panels had a real, widespread problems, they would be recalled. It's really that simple.

The CPSC DOES look at these things. Square D has had several high profile CPSC-initiated recalls for both Homeline and QO panels in the past decade or so because of potential fire and burning risks.

Going around forums calling BR panels "Zinsco II" does not make it true, and only serves to get people worked up and worried about something that isn't an issue. There is simply way, way too much liability involved with panel boards to be willingly/knowingly shipping a hazardous product. If there was a problem, Eaton would stop selling, or make the necessary changes.

...and I'm not a "BR" fanboy either. I almost always use QO panels in my projects.

 

[sparky 1971]

They have the same crappy AL bus as Zinsco, and what has been said that they were never recalled, quite doubtful Eaton BR will either, but it is still garbage like Zinsco, & FPE. Any other make/model panel is a major improvement, even GE.

Is there something legitimately different with the BR AL bus that the other makers don't have? I don't care for any of the AL bus panels even though I have a Homeline, but is there something different between BR and Siemens?

 

[sparky 1971]

They have the same crappy AL bus as Zinsco, and what has been said that they were never recalled, quite doubtful Eaton BR will either, but it is still garbage like Zinsco, & FPE. Any other make/model panel is a major improvement, even GE.

When I think of Zinsco, it's one of these pieces of garbage, nothing like a BR bus other than made of aluminum. I've replaced many of these that had a burned up bus.

 

[Norcal]

A BR is about the same as Challenger, in the past they were the same, even using the same main breakers as the lovely Zinsco's in Sparky 1971's photo above.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Keep the Federal they are the best.

Federal Pioneer (Canada) is now owned by Schneider (as is SqD)
They are an improved design over the old Federal Pacific seen in the US.

 

[klassenl]

Federal Pioneer (Canada) is now owned by Schneider (as is SqD)
They are an improved design over the old Federal Pacific seen in the US.

We had Federal Pacific here in Canada as well. I don't know when it changed to Federal Pioneer. Sadly, Schneider stopped making them a few years ago and introduced the lesser Homeline products.

 

[tominboise]

Might be worth getting the Generlink installed at the same time?

Absolutely. I had some work done a couple years ago that required replacing the meter box, etc. The work went fine but I did not have a transfer switch installed while I had it all apart and the electricians were there. Mistake on my part.

 

[alfredeneuman]

We had Federal Pacific here in Canada as well.

Then why on Earth did you say

Keep the Federal they are the best.

Was that some attempt at humor?

 

[alfredeneuman]

Square D has had several high profile CPSC-initiated recalls for both Homeline and QO panels in the past decade or so because of potential fire and burning risks.

The last QO related recall was because>
Incidents/Injuries:
"The firm has received one report of an incident of a loose wire. No injuries have been reported".
I understand 1 bolt on the crossbar that connects the 2 neutral bars to each other was not properly torqued.
Hardly high profile.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yup, so even further proof that there was likely never any real issue. Just exaggerated hyperbole, likely from poorly done original installs. If BR panels had a real, widespread problems, they would be recalled. It's really that simple.

The CPSC DOES look at these things. Square D has had several high profile CPSC-initiated recalls for both Homeline and QO panels in the past decade or so because of potential fire and burning risks.

Going around forums calling BR panels "Zinsco II" does not make it true, and only serves to get people worked up and worried about something that isn't an issue. There is simply way, way too much liability involved with panel boards to be willingly/knowingly shipping a hazardous product. If there was a problem, Eaton would stop selling, or make the necessary changes.

...and I'm not a "BR" fanboy either. I almost always use QO panels in my projects.

Apparently youve never seen BR factory main breakers burn up at the lugs. These are breakers that come installed in the panels from the factory.

Had to change one out that literally disintegrated in my hands...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Then why on Earth did you say

Was that some attempt at humor?

The FPE in canada were not problem probe like the ones in the US

 

[alfredeneuman]

Klassenl>
"We had Federal Pacific here in Canada as well. I don't know when it changed to Federal Pioneer."

The one's that didn't pose a problem were Federal Pioneer(owned by Schneider), not Federal Pacific.

 

[rancherbill]

I've been working through the mess of electrical in a pole barn on my new property....

Back to the topic

What I know is that 1) it's never been inspected, 2) it was installed by someone that was not at the peak of the code knowledge curve, and 3) it's older.

I'd continue what you are doing. I'd make a diagram of what the building and figure out what is fed from where.

I would double check all the connections specifically, all electrical connections in the panel and at the switches or plugs. They loosen with time. They are to be snug not Hercules tight. There are comments in the thread about stuff burning and that's a result of screws / connections loosening over time. It is good practice to check your connections every decade or so. (I am sure somebody will post the right answer)

I would not consider replacing the panel because I firmly believe in the adage "Don't fix it if it aint broke". Move on to doing stuff in your new building.

 

[American Locomotive]

Apparently youve never seen BR factory main breakers burn up at the lugs. These are breakers that come installed in the panels from the factory.

Had to change one out that literally disintegrated in my hands...

Once again, if it were a common widespread problem, there would be recalls and lawsuits.

Breakers fail from all manufacturers.

It's called selection bias. Electricians get called to fix problems. For every BR panel you've seen with a problem, there were probably 50,000 that have been trucking along just fine. You may counter that you've fixed more BR panels than others, well it's likely that there are simply more BR panels installed in homes than other panels, so of course you will see more with problems.

 

[alfredeneuman]

I would double check all the connections specifically, all electrical connections in the panel and at the switches or plugs... (I am sure somebody will post the right answer)

A plug is something that goes on the end of a cord.
A receptacle, or outlet is the one on the wall.

 

[klassenl]

Breakers fail from all manufacturers.

That's a dirty little secret you're not supposed to tell.

 

[Noltz]

...

I'd continue what you are doing. I'd make a diagram of what the building and figure out what is fed from where.

I would double check all the connections specifically, all electrical connections in the panel and at the switches or plugs. They loosen with time. They are to be snug not Hercules tight. There are comments in the thread about stuff burning and that's a result of screws / connections loosening over time. It is good practice to check your connections every decade or so. (I am sure somebody will post the right answer)

I drew up a diagram for my old house. It was very handy. Here everything is getting a printed label on the panel and at each plug which breaker feeds it (P1-10, L1, 6-50A, 6-50B...). Good call on checking the breaker tightness. About half were not as snug as I like.

I would not consider replacing the panel because I firmly believe in the adage "Don't fix it if it aint broke". Move on to doing stuff in your new building.

Only because I'm planning on being here a long time swapping the panel will be done for my own comfort. There's plenty of extra conductor on every circuit. I'm sure this was a temporary panel that turned into a 'ain't broke, don't fix it' situation. I have experience with Siemens panels & have spare Siemens breakers so I'll go that route when the time comes.

 

[rancherbill]

Only because I'm planning on being here a long time swapping the panel will be done for my own comfort.

Spend your money on a hot rod, woodworking or whatever. Changing a functioning panel is like replacing the sound concrete floor because it's old.

Tightening is everything from plugs switches to every screw and mount and everything in the panel.

I would tell you a story, but forces would kill me for revealing company confidential info, but, a connection that was supposed to be checked every ten years was not checked for 30+ years. It apparently was spectacular when it failed and the total cost and lost production was several million dollars. Somebody mentioned failures in panel earlier. Bad connections cause overheating and failures. A piece of wire or metal does not fail if it is used according to design criteria it is the connections.

 

[sparky 1971]

Spend your money on a hot rod, woodworking or whatever. Changing a functioning panel is like replacing the sound concrete floor because it's old.

Tightening is everything from plugs switches to every screw and mount and everything in the panel.

I would tell you a story, but forces would kill me for revealing company confidential info, but, a connection that was supposed to be checked every ten years was not checked for 30+ years. It apparently was spectacular when it failed and the total cost and lost production was several million dollars. Somebody mentioned failures in panel earlier. Bad connections cause overheating and failures. A piece of wire or metal does not fail if it is used according to design criteria it is the connections.

Not if it's a Federal Pacific. The problem with them is that the breakers don't trip. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've heard someone that's lived in the same house for 40+ years tell me how great their FPE panel is because they've never tripped a breaker. I even work in one jurisdiction that requires Federal panels to go the way of the dumpster.

 

[rharman]

So, is that a thing - checking breaker wire connections? My 200A panel was installed 30 years ago and untouched since.