Sizing dimmer switch?

[jcarapet]

Dumb question amnesty required.

Ordered my lights for the shop, 10 primelights USA high bay

PERFORMANCE SPECIFICATION:
Lumens: 25,400
Watts: 164
LPW: 154
Color: 4000k
CRI 83.2

L85 L85 @ > 200,000 hrs
Max Ambient Temp 125° F
Min Ambient Temp -4° F
Dimming 0-10v Dimming to 1%
Driver Voltage 120/277
Chip Samsung B+ S4
Driver D23CC90UNVT-F

Currently the plan is to divide in half. 5 lights on each switch. setting up as a 3 way for the two shop access points is ideal but not an absolute need.

The spec sheet obviously calls for a 0-10v switch, but unclear if I need to be selective about getting the right 0-10v dimmer switch. Would I size the switch based on sum total of the draw of lights on a switch (165 * 5 = 825), or would I pick on the base wattage and assume it's going all around (165 watt)?

Can get a general 0-10v switch, but limited to 450w

Lutron Diva Dimmer Switch for 0-10V LED/Fluorescent Fixtures, 3.75-Amp, Single-Pole or 3-Way, White (DVSTV-453PH-WH) DVSTV-453PH-WH - The Home Depot

Diva 0-10-Volt dimmer switch is a simple solution designed to match existing decora-style switches and accessories. This Diva dimmer switch is a 0-10-Volt DC Dimmer to control 0-10-Volt LED and Fluorescent

www.homedepot.com

If using the sum wattage total approach this would suffice, but obviously makes the the price point a little bit cringey

https://www.larsonelectronics.com/p...tXWkHZk0IMx-OgL1zwh76KPirLfGaD8xoCuogQAvD_BwE

Any feedback, including if i'm an idiot or overthinking this is appreciated.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ummm 10v dimming doesnt handle the load of the light. Its a separate control circuit.

Did you run wire that has 10v control wires? If not then you may have issues as you most likely cant dim these lights with line voltage dimmers.

 

[jcarapet]

I was not aware that 0-10v did not control dimming via line voltage. Not sure I am completely following but I feel like using the Google machine would be a good use of my time.

Adding for future documentation.

https://www.prolighting.com/blog/2020/03/25/understanding-0-10v-dimming-with-todays-led-commercial-fixtures/#:~:text=At%2010%20volts%2C%20the%20light,turn%20the%20lights%20off%20completely.

I have not even run the EMT to run the wire yet. Just got scaffolding to tackle that job last week.

 

[grounded-b]

You need to run a separate 2 conductor, 18 gauge low voltage cable from your 0-10V dimmer to all the lights you want to dim. Do not run it inside the conduit with the line wires. It can be zip-tied to the outside of the conduit. The 0-10VDC circuit can be tee-tapped or daisy-chained from fixture to fixture.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I was not aware that 0-10v did not control dimming via line voltage. Not sure I am completely following but I feel like using the Google machine would be a good use of my time.

Adding for future documentation.

https://www.prolighting.com/blog/2020/03/25/understanding-0-10v-dimming-with-todays-led-commercial-fixtures/#:~:text=At%2010%20volts%2C%20the%20light,turn%20the%20lights%20off%20completely.

I have not even run the EMT to run the wire yet. Just got scaffolding to tackle that job last week.

yeah its a separate 2 conductor control circuit. you cant run 10v on the same conductors that are running 120v. that would be impossible....

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You need to run a separate 2 conductor, 18 gauge low voltage cable from your 0-10V dimmer to all the lights you want to dim. Do not run it inside the conduit with the line wires. It can be zip-tied to the outside of the conduit. The 0-10VDC circuit can be tee-tapped or daisy-chained from fixture to fixture.

Why? the wires can be ran in the same conduit if they are rated for line voltage such as CL3 rated.

There's NM-b cable that has the 10v control wire built into the same cable. It's called NM-B-PCS. Southwire calls their Romex brand version NM-B-PCS DUO

Romex® Brand SIMpull® Type NM-B-PCS DUO™ Cable | Southwire

Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable with both Power Conductors and Control/Signal Conductors. 600 Volts. Copper Conductors. Color-Coded Jacket. SIMpull® Jacket Designed for Easier Pulling.

www.southwire.com

Theres an MC version as well

MC-PCS Duo™ Power & Control/Signal Cable | Southwire

www.southwire.com

 

[grounded-b]

Why? the wires can be ran in the same conduit if they are rated for line voltage such as CL3 rated.

Hmm. Change your mind much?

Here's a quote from you back in 2017 - "No separation required, just dont put low voltage and line voltage wires in the same conduit... "

This was your reply in this thread - https://www.garagejournal.com/forum...-power-and-low-voltage-in-same-trench.360996/

 

[jcarapet]

I have some 14 gauge low voltage landscaping wire. If it can't run in the raceway I can mount it outside it sounds like. Or i can grab some MC though I'm not overly fond of it (frivolous personal preference).

I'm still a little lost on which dimmer switch would be suitable for the wattage load of 5-6 165w high bays. a 250 watt work? 450? 1200? I'll continue to search on my own but just curious.

 

[grounded-b]

I have some 14 gauge low voltage landscaping wire. If it can't run in the raceway I can mount it outside it sounds like. Or i can grab some MC though I'm not overly fond of it (frivolous personal preference).

I'm still a little lost on which dimmer switch would be suitable for the wattage load of 5-6 165w high bays. a 250 watt work? 450? 1200? I'll continue to search on my own but just curious.

0-10VDC dimmers do not have a wattage rating. The actual dimming circuitry is built into the LED driver.

If your dimmer has a wattage rating, it is a line voltage dimmer ( not compatible with 0-10V dimming )

Steve

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hmm. Change your mind much?

Here's a quote from you back in 2017 - "No separation required, just dont put low voltage and line voltage wires in the same conduit... "

This was your reply in this thread - https://www.garagejournal.com/forum...-power-and-low-voltage-in-same-trench.360996/

apples to oranges, flawed comparison...

the low voltage i was referring to was network communication cabling. not conductors for lighting... did you even read the thread? it was discussing CAT6... no i wouldnt put CAT6 in the same conduit as line voltage wire.... CAT6 isnt the same thing as whats being discussed here... nice try

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I have some 14 gauge low voltage landscaping wire. If it can't run in the raceway I can mount it outside it sounds like. Or i can grab some MC though I'm not overly fond of it (frivolous personal preference).

most likely not rated for in-wall or in building use... buy the proper wire....

I'm still a little lost on which dimmer switch would be suitable for the wattage load of 5-6 165w high bays. a 250 watt work? 450? 1200? I'll continue to search on my own but just curious.

you dont need to worry about the wattage load on a 10v dimmer. its not carrying the lighting load. its merely a control circuit... it tells the chip in the LED driver how much to dim based on the voltage level of 0-10v that its passing thru

 

[cybrdyke]

Hmm. Change your mind much?

Here's a quote from you back in 2017 - "No separation required, just dont put low voltage and line voltage wires in the same conduit... "

This was your reply in this thread - https://www.garagejournal.com/forum...-power-and-low-voltage-in-same-trench.360996/

The two cable items with 0-10V controls built into them were not available in 2017. It's perfectly understandable that he changed his answer since new products are now available.
CD

 

[cybrdyke]

Dumb question amnesty required.

Ordered my lights for the shop, 10 primelights USA high bay

PERFORMANCE SPECIFICATION:
Lumens: 25,400
Watts: 164
LPW: 154
Color: 4000k
CRI 83.2

L85 L85 @ > 200,000 hrs
Max Ambient Temp 125° F
Min Ambient Temp -4° F
Dimming 0-10v Dimming to 1%
Driver Voltage 120/277
Chip Samsung B+ S4
Driver D23CC90UNVT-F

Currently the plan is to divide in half. 5 lights on each switch. setting up as a 3 way for the two shop access points is ideal but not an absolute need.

The spec sheet obviously calls for a 0-10v switch, but unclear if I need to be selective about getting the right 0-10v dimmer switch. Would I size the switch based on sum total of the draw of lights on a switch (165 * 5 = 825), or would I pick on the base wattage and assume it's going all around (165 watt)?

Can get a general 0-10v switch, but limited to 450w

Lutron Diva Dimmer Switch for 0-10V LED/Fluorescent Fixtures, 3.75-Amp, Single-Pole or 3-Way, White (DVSTV-453PH-WH) DVSTV-453PH-WH - The Home Depot

Diva 0-10-Volt dimmer switch is a simple solution designed to match existing decora-style switches and accessories. This Diva dimmer switch is a 0-10-Volt DC Dimmer to control 0-10-Volt LED and Fluorescent

www.homedepot.com

If using the sum wattage total approach this would suffice, but obviously makes the the price point a little bit cringey

https://www.larsonelectronics.com/p...tXWkHZk0IMx-OgL1zwh76KPirLfGaD8xoCuogQAvD_BwE

Any feedback, including if i'm an idiot or overthinking this is appreciated.

Google Eaton SF10P dimmer. 1200 watts electrical load with separate 0-10VDC c onnections. You can bring all the wires into the same wall box. Use one of the wire products that Wylie suggested so that you dont have to make a separate run between the power wires and the low voltage wires.
Or....you can do it wirelessly by using a Lutron Vive powpack in the ceiling and then Pico remote switches. Super easy and very convenient to put the switches wherever you want them.

Good luck,
CD

 

[billconner]

Always thought this should be called 10 to 0 dimming, since 10 is off and 0 us full. Technically called 0-10 current sinking dimming.

I agree there are conductors that allow you to run the low voltage wires in same conduit with line but I believe it has to stay there or within enclosures. I specified a ton of 0-10 and all in conduit.

I can't explain why a definitely 0-10 dimmer like op linked has a max wattage. There is a limit as to how many drivers or ballasts a 0-10 v dimmer can control, but I think it's not a lot and not the fixture wattage.

 

[Bert_]

I like to pull #16 tffn for dimming wires

 

[Norcal]

Hmm. Change your mind much?

Here's a quote from you back in 2017 - "No separation required, just dont put low voltage and line voltage wires in the same conduit... "

This was your reply in this thread - https://www.garagejournal.com/forum...-power-and-low-voltage-in-same-trench.360996/

There is a difference between a "solution" created onsite & a listed assembly.

 

[dave*99]

Always thought this should be called 10 to 0 dimming, since 10 is off and 0 us full. Technically called 0-10 current sinking dimming.

I agree there are conductors that allow you to run the low voltage wires in same conduit with line but I believe it has to stay there or within enclosures. I specified a ton of 0-10 and all in conduit.

I can't explain why a definitely 0-10 dimmer like op linked has a max wattage. There is a limit as to how many drivers or ballasts a 0-10 v dimmer can control, but I think it's not a lot and not the fixture wattage.

Pro lighting says this:

"What is 0-10V Dimming?

0-10V dimming is a lighting control method that – on direct current voltage (DC) between 0 and 10 volts – can produce light at varying intensity levels. 0-10V dimming is the simplest control system for lighting, providing smooth operation and dimming down to 10%, 1%, and even 0.1% light level. At 10 volts, the light will go to maximum power. At 0 volts, the light will dim to its minimum light level, although sometimes a switch is required to turn the lights off completely. "

I believe it goes like this: The driver in the light is the current source and the current is sinking by flowing through the dimmer.
The light will operate at full brightness if nothing is connected to the dimming terminals. No current is sunk. And I suspect those terminals on the driver of the light sit at 10V with nothing connected. This corresponds to full brightness.

When you sink current from those terminals, and drag them down to 0V it is fully dimmed. This would correspond to the Pro Lighting description.

https://www.prolighting.com/blog/2020/03/25/understanding-0-10v-dimming-with-todays-led-commercial-fixtures/#:~:text=0%2D10V%20dimming%20is%20a,and%20even%200.1%25%20light%20level.

 

[billconner]

Understand but if no voltage - disconnect one of the wires - light goes to full. Short the two wires - which seems like max control voltage - lowest level.

Doesn't matter. It works.

I think most have improved but when I started using it, fully dimmed was not out. Being full out mattered in stage and studio work so every zone had a power relay as well.

 

[dave*99]

Understand but if no voltage - disconnect one of the wires - light goes to full. Short the two wires - which seems like max control voltage - lowest level.

Look at it this way.
When you disconnect the dimmer wire the driver terminals sit at 10V. Light at full.

Short the driver wires and there is 0V across the now shorted terminals. Light is dim.

 

[billconner]

Just thought 10-O was helpful because there is a 0-10 source dimming - an early electronic dimming protocol.

I think if you meter the 2 conductors to a control ground, one is constant 10 v and return is 0 v (disconnected/full) or 10 v (shorted/dim).

It's a stage and studio perspective.

 

[dave*99]

Just thought 10-O was helpful because there is a 0-10 source dimming - an early electronic dimming protocol.

I think if you meter the 2 conductors to a control ground, one is constant 10 v and return is 0 v (disconnected/full) or 10 v (shorted/dim).

It's a stage and studio perspective.

The dimmer leads are isolated. There is no control ground. But I do see your perspective. If the Dimmer was the current source - your dim/bright vs voltage logic works. But since the LED driver is the current source, the dimmer is the load and logic is reversed.