More subpanels questions! 200amp or 100amp?

[Xkylescorex]

So I finally have my detached garage buiilt! Now its time for power. Previous owner updated the house to 200amp service and the inside main panel is slap full. There is no more space in it. Anyway. So I opened the panel and looks like I can tbrow another 200 amp breaker on and run it to my detached garage about 30 feet away. My plan is to put a subpanel in the garage. Can it really be that easy? Did I hit the jackpot? Also should I run a 200 amp service or a 100? Mainly I have an air co.pressor and a welder and thats it. A few 20 amp circuits. Nothing crazy. If I tap into the breaker box do I need another breaker or cut off downstream?

I might want to tie into tbis line later to power a minisplit in the house. Could I just stick another panel downstream before I hit the garage? I know I need a 220v and a disconnect for that.

 

[dcg9381]

So I finally have my detached garage buiilt! Now its time for power. Previous owner updated the house to 200amp service and the inside main panel is slap full. There is no more space in it. Anyway. So I opened the panel and looks like I can tbrow another 200 amp breaker on and run it to my detached garage about 30 feet away. My plan is to put a subpanel in the garage. Can it really be that easy? Did I hit the jackpot? Also should I run a 200 amp service or a 100? Mainly I have an air co.pressor and a welder and thats it. A few 20 amp circuits. Nothing crazy. If I tap into the breaker box do I need another breaker or cut off downstream?

I might want to tie into tbis line later to power a minisplit in the house. Could I just stick another panel downstream before I hit the garage? I know I need a 220v and a disconnect for that.

That panel is C-3611. I can't find any diagram of it. It "looks" like it might take another breaker to the right, but I can't be sure. The Neutral/ground bar appears to be pretty full, but may be expandable?

Most garages don't need more than 100A. 90A is actually the "sweet spot" in terms of feed wire economy. You will need another "subpanel" down stream as you have to split out your loads.

If you have more loads in-between here and the shop, yes, you'll need a sub-panel for those and a sub-panel for the shop.

Sub-panels have split out neutral and gound. Do NOT wire them like the main panel where the neutral and ground are on the same lug.

 

[Xkylescorex]

That panel is C-3611. I can't find any diagram of it. It "looks" like it might take another breaker to the right, but I can't be sure. The Neutral/ground bar appears to be pretty full, but may be expandable?

Most garages don't need more than 100A. 90A is actually the "sweet spot" in terms of feed wire economy. You will need another "subpanel" down stream as you have to split out your loads.

If you have more loads in-between here and the shop, yes, you'll need a sub-panel for those and a sub-panel for the shop.

Sub-panels have split out neutral and gound. Do NOT wire them like the main panel where the neutral and ground are on the same lug.

It actually does have a space for another breaker to the right. Maybe I can post a better picture. Could I run a double lug or something on the nuetral ground bar? I think 90 amp is plenty for my little shop. The biggest draw is my 80 gallon air compressor and maybe a n oven to powdercoat

 

[Xkylescorex]

Ok I found the schematics for the box. On the amazon product listing the manufacturer says:

"panel will accept 1 QN or 2 QP’s or 1-QN and 1-QP (2 pole) or 2 QP (2 poles) https://s3.amazonaws.com/dcc-data-e...-08-21/Specification Sheet/MM0406L1200RGA.pdf "


So I'm not sure whats on it, I think thats a 2 pole QN? I'm probably going to have an electrician mess with this part but dang I hate to spend $2k if all I gotta do is throw in a new breaker and run it to a subpanel. Ive done all of my other shops but this is the first house Ive had with 200 amp service and its a little different.

 

[PCustoms]

I think you're fine on adding a breaker.

But what's up with the 2 bare copper, white and bare Aluminum? Seems like you have an extra wire....

I assume the 1st copper is to a ground rod(s) and that's SEU headed to an interior panel, 4 wires since this is past the 1st disconnect. The 2nd copper is throwing me off

 

[Xkylescorex]

I think you're fine on adding a breaker.

But what's up with the 2 bare copper, white and bare Aluminum? Seems like you have an extra wire....

I assume the 1st copper is to a ground rod(s) and that's SEU headed to an interior panel, 4 wires since this is past the 1st disconnect. The 2nd copper is throwing me off

Yes it then goes inside to the main panel for the house. What are diffrrencevin QN and QP breakers?

 

[dcg9381]

Yes it then goes inside to the main panel for the house. What are diffrrencevin QN and QP breakers?

QN appears to be a "large" breaker type for big loads, 150-200A, etc. It looks like they take 4 slots to me.

QP is a standard Siemens breaker, it's more like what you're used to for sub-panel loads. Single or double pole. 1 or 2 slots.


It says it has 6 slots for breakers only 4 are 2-pole. It's that 200A breaker that's throwing me off - someone else can confirm that you can easily expand another 90A 2-pole breaker.

 

[Xkylescorex]

QN appears to be a "large" breaker type for big loads, 150-200A, etc. It looks like they take 4 slots to me.

QP is a standard Siemens breaker, it's more like what you're used to for sub-panel loads. Single or double pole. 1 or 2 slots.


It says it has 6 slots for breakers only 4 are 2-pole. It's that 200A breaker that's throwing me off - someone else can confirm that you can easily expand another 90A 2-pole breaker.

Awesome.

I think this is what I need.

Siemens 90 Amp Double-Pole Type QP Circuit Breaker Q290 - The Home Depot

Siemens offers a wide array of thermal-magnetic circuit breakers that are the key element for overload and short-circuit protection of your homes electrical system. To provide additional protection Siemens

www.homedepot.com

Then just run itvout to the garage sub panel.

 

[PCustoms]

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So I finally have my detached garage buiilt! Now its time for power. Previous owner updated the house to 200amp service and the inside main panel is slap full. There is no more space in it. Anyway. So I opened the panel and looks like I can throw another 200 amp breaker on and run it to my detached garage about 30 feet away. My plan is to put a subpanel in the garage. Can it really be that easy? Did I hit the jackpot?

i doubt that panel is rated for another 200a breaker in spaces 3 and 4. if you look at the line diagram, space 3 and 4 is for twin breakers and single pole branch breakers. you could do a QP 100 or 90 there

Also should I run a 200 amp service or a 100? Mainly I have an air compressor and a welder and thats it. A few 20 amp circuits. Nothing crazy.

100a should be plenty for that. you could even get by 90a and use #2 AL MHF...

If I tap into the breaker box do I need another breaker or cut off downstream?

in the garage subpanel you will need a disconnect if you will have more than 6 breaker handles....

I might want to tie into this line later to power a minisplit in the house. Could I just stick another panel downstream before I hit the garage? I know I need a 220v and a disconnect for that.

if you want to do that, then you should set a subpanel next to this main panel and feed the garage subpanel from this subpanel as there is only 2 breaker spaces available.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

That panel is C-3611. I can't find any diagram of it. It "looks" like it might take another breaker to the right, but I can't be sure. The Neutral/ground bar appears to be pretty full, but may be expandable?

Most garages don't need more than 100A. 90A is actually the "sweet spot" in terms of feed wire economy. You will need another "subpanel" down stream as you have to split out your loads.

If you have more loads in-between here and the shop, yes, you'll need a sub-panel for those and a sub-panel for the shop.

Sub-panels have split out neutral and gound. Do NOT wire them like the main panel where the neutral and ground are on the same lug.

yes there are 2 more breaker spaces to the right of the main. its a 4 space panel

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It actually does have a space for another breaker to the right. Maybe I can post a better picture. Could I run a double lug or something on the nuetral ground bar? I think 90 amp is plenty for my little shop. The biggest draw is my 80 gallon air compressor and maybe a n oven to powdercoat

youll have to see what siemens has listed for this panel

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok I found the schematics for the box. On the amazon product listing the manufacturer says:

"panel will accept 1 QN or 2 QP’s or 1-QN and 1-QP (2 pole) or 2 QP (2 poles) https://s3.amazonaws.com/dcc-data-extract/new-delta/asset/Compas/daily/Compas/2019-08-21/Specification Sheet/MM0406L1200RGA.pdf "


So I'm not sure whats on it, I think thats a 2 pole QN? I'm probably going to have an electrician mess with this part but dang I hate to spend $2k if all I gotta do is throw in a new breaker and run it to a subpanel. Ive done all of my other shops but this is the first house Ive had with 200 amp service and its a little different.

yes that is a QN2200.

if you want capacity to feed additional things in the house and the garage subpanel, set a subpanel next to this with 100a breaker, then feed the garage from this new subpanel

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I think you're fine on adding a breaker.

But what's up with the 2 bare copper, white and bare Aluminum? Seems like you have an extra wire....

I assume the 1st copper is to a ground rod(s) and that's SEU headed to an interior panel, 4 wires since this is past the 1st disconnect. The 2nd copper is throwing me off

1 to rods, 1 to plumbing- water, gas, water heater, etc?

 

[PCustoms]

1 to rods, 1 to plumbing- water, gas, water heater, etc?

Why wouldn't that come off the sub panel, does it have to tie back to the main?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

QN appears to be a "large" breaker type for big loads, 150-200A, etc. It looks like they take 4 slots to me.

it would be impossible for it to be a 4-space breaker as the panel has 4 spaces total and there are 2 remaining. the QN2200 is a 2 space breaker. see the back of it below.

QP is a standard Siemens breaker, it's more like what you're used to for sub-panel loads. Single or double pole. 1 or 2 slots.


It says it has 6 slots for breakers only 4 are 2-pole. It's that 200A breaker that's throwing me off - someone else can confirm that you can easily expand another 90A 2-pole breaker.

nope read it again. it says it has 4 breaker spaces and is rated for 6 CIRCUITS, meaning you can put 2 twin breakers in spaces 3 and 4.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Why wouldn't that come off the sub panel, does it have to tie back to the main?

you typically want all your bond wires in the same panel. doesnt have to but thats usually the method

 

[dcg9381]

it would be impossible for it to be a 4-space breaker as the panel has 4 spaces total and there are 2 remaining. the QN2200 is a 2 space breaker. see the back of it below.
nope read it again. it says it has 4 breaker spaces and is rated for 6 CIRCUITS, meaning you can put 2 twin breakers in spaces 3 and 4.

I was basing it on the cover, which shows cut outs for 6. I can't match that to the internal design.

OP, trust @wyliesdiesels over me any day.

I based my assessment of "4 slots" based on Siemen's documentation.

https://assets.new.siemens.com/siemens/assets/api/uuid:5fa3e4c0-e5a6-4ee2-b021-450a4b8efbf9/sie-br-qn.pdf

 

[Xkylescorex]

I was just thinking, is tbe 200 amp breaker in there a main shut off? I cant tell. If I switch that first breaker off the box will still be energized right. So I need an electrician to pull the meter no matter what?

My plan was to run a smaller subpanel like suggested earlier. Then do a run of MHF to the subpanel in the garage.

Looks like Ill need to find someowhere to add another ground and nuetral in there if Im using #2 MHF

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I was just thinking, is tbe 200 amp breaker in there a main shut off? I cant tell. If I switch that first breaker off the box will still be energized right. So I need an electrician to pull the meter no matter what?

My plan was to run a smaller subpanel like suggested earlier. Then do a run of MHF to the subpanel in the garage.

Looks like Ill need to find someowhere to add another ground and nuetral in there if Im using #2 MHF

the 200a breaker is not the main. so yeah busses will still be energized. but unless you feel uncomfortable working around live busses, there should be no need to de-ernegize it. also you should check with your PoCo. they may have rules about who can pull meters

 

[nadogail]

I have known people who have complained that the sub panel is too small for their needs; I have yet to hear anyone complain about their sub panel being too large.

 

[Norcal]

I have known people who have complained that the sub panel is too small for their needs; I have yet to hear anyone complain about their sub panel being too large.

This! Being a cheap effer never pays.

 

[Xkylescorex]

So Ive been looking for a 90 amp breaker that fits my main panel off the meter. The submeter in the detached garage has a 100 amp breaker in it. What size breaker do I need off the main panel? Could I run a 125 or 150 amp breaker since the first breaker in tbe garage is 100 amp? I cant seem to find the fancy siemans breaker at home depot thats 90 or 100 amp but looks like 150 amp breakers are easy to find. I think the subpanel in my garage is 125 amp panel. Does that mean the main fuse at the meter is limited to 125 amp?

 

[nadogail]

So Ive been looking for a 90 amp breaker that fits my main panel off the meter. The submeter in the detached garage has a 100 amp breaker in it. What size breaker do I need off the main panel? Could I run a 125 or 150 amp breaker since the first breaker in tbe garage is 100 amp? I cant seem to find the fancy siemans breaker at home depot thats 90 or 100 amp but looks like 150 amp breakers are easy to find. I think the subpanel in my garage is 125 amp panel. Does that mean the main fuse at the meter is limited to 125 amp?
[/QUOTE)
IMHO, You should go to an electrical supply house hat serves professional electricians. Home Depot is not one; they are Home Desperate for the professional. When it is Dark 30 on a Sunday night, you might find a professional at Home Desperate, but the stores real purpose is to have in stock only those few items that constitute the majority of sales.

 

[Xkylescorex]

Thanks, thats what I was thinking. I figured I could show them a pjcture and tvey will show me what I need. I orderedc a 90 amp qn breaker but it doesnt look lime it fits at all so Im now scratching my head

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So Ive been looking for a 90 amp breaker that fits my main panel off the meter. The submeter in the detached garage has a 100 amp breaker in it. What size breaker do I need off the main panel? Could I run a 125 or 150 amp breaker since the first breaker in tbe garage is 100 amp? I cant seem to find the fancy siemans breaker at home depot thats 90 or 100 amp but looks like 150 amp breakers are easy to find. I think the subpanel in my garage is 125 amp panel. Does that mean the main fuse at the meter is limited to 125 amp?

If you used #2 AL then you need a 90a breaker in the main.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks, thats what I was thinking. I figured I could show them a pjcture and tvey will show me what I need. I orderedc a 90 amp qn breaker but it doesnt look lime it fits at all so Im now scratching my head

Im betting a QP breaker will work

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BPD9B6/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Xkylescorex]

Im betting a QP breaker will work

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BPD9B6/?tag=atomicindus08-20

This is what I got. It doesnt look like it fits but I could be wrong
.Q290 90-Amp Double Pole Type QP Circuit Breaker https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BPD9B6/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[wyliesdiesels]

This is what I got. It doesnt look like it fits but I could be wrong
.Q290 90-Amp Double Pole Type QP Circuit Breaker https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BPD9B6/?tag=atomicindus08-20

oh your other comment mustve been a typo as it says QN

 

[Xkylescorex]

I just checked again. It works.

 

[Xkylescorex]

So I have my shop all wired up. Im ready to hook up to my main breaker off the house. The easieat would be to just throw my 90 amp breaker on the open slot in my houses main and run 2-2-2-4 out to my shop's sub panel. Im scared of throwing the breaker on a live bus though and in particular hooking up the nuetral and ground. Ill need an adaptor lug to make it work in the main breaker. Should I leave this to an electrician?

 

[PCustoms]

So I have my shop all wired up. Im ready to hook up to my main breaker off the house. The easieat would be to just throw my 90 amp breaker on the open slot in my houses main and run 2-2-2-4 out to my shop's sub panel. Im scared of throwing the breaker on a live bus though and in particular hooking up the nuetral and ground. Ill need an adaptor lug to make it work in the main breaker. Should I leave this to an electrician?

If you're scared then yes.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So I have my shop all wired up. Im ready to hook up to my main breaker off the house. The easieat would be to just throw my 90 amp breaker on the open slot in my houses main and run 2-2-2-4 out to my shop's sub panel. Im scared of throwing the breaker on a live bus though and in particular hooking up the nuetral and ground. Ill need an adaptor lug to make it work in the main breaker. Should I leave this to an electrician?

Yeah if you dont feel comfortable then hire it out

 

[mike93lx]

So I have my shop all wired up. Im ready to hook up to my main breaker off the house. The easieat would be to just throw my 90 amp breaker on the open slot in my houses main and run 2-2-2-4 out to my shop's sub panel. Im scared of throwing the breaker on a live bus though and in particular hooking up the nuetral and ground. Ill need an adaptor lug to make it work in the main breaker. Should I leave this to an electrician?

Absolutely. It's good when you recognize a limit and pull in a pro