I was also going to recommend the S-K. They have their version of flank drive, can't recall it's name at the moment. But with their recent acquisition they might be having discounts on a set you could use. Epstein's would be the place to check.
Best value long pattern combo wrenches?
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roofdweller49
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Is this due to the beam design or the heads?
Are the standard length Protos Snap On length?
MarcSeattle
Well-known member
I have the Stahlville 14/17. They just feel good in the hand. Comfortable, good grip, and I'm sold on the I-beam style construction since it's lighter and it creates a groove for the fingers and thumb. Amazon.de has great prices, check Amazon.it also.
Ton ton
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I would buy Cornwell or King ****. I have the gear wrench no ratcheting set and I was disappointed. I do have some ratcheting Cornwell that I like so far.
I got the USAG set for 95€ which is equivelant to the Mac RBRT wrenches (8 to 19mm). They seem really good. The Facom is similar but a bit milder anti slip profile (I think these USAG ones may not have been released at the time the person in this thread first mentioned the Facom on the previous page).
dutchgray
Well-known member
I think you're right about the Facom ones being available first F-22, at least at a similar time to the MAC ones being available.
I still think its mad they don't have a full set without skips in the Facom brand, being that in the UK its only the Facom that's easily available from many sources (and MAC if you have dealer)
I still think its mad they don't have a full set without skips in the Facom brand, being that in the UK its only the Facom that's easily available from many sources (and MAC if you have dealer)
roofdweller49
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As someone pointed out to me, the USAG is a 6 point box vs the 12 point on the Facom
Yes, I think that is a big factor to consider. 6 sided is a lot more clumsy to use but if you want anti-slip wrenches to use on old rounded and rusty nuts they perform way better than the 12 point end of regular wrenches.
But that’s the set with several skips concentrated at the large (expensive) end, right? So it might not seem such a bargain to American buyers, who seem more fixated than Europeans on “no-skip” sets.
Ironically, I think it actually skips the sizes most relevant to the US buyers. But they should also have a complete set that's a little bit more?
Mine is missing the 9mm, 15mm, 16mm and 18mm size. Out of those three, for me, I most commonly encounter a 9mm screw on some 50's and 60's German motorcycles like the NSU Max. That's something I work on maybe once every 5 years or so, so it is still an incredibly rare occurance,.
15mm you can sometimes find on some fine threaded fasteners too. But it is also rare, and in those cases it's usually inside an engine, typically can use a socket or a regular wrench just fine with those.
I really wonder if I ever had to use a 16mm and 18mm wrenches. Maybe for some odd screws on my Ford Focus? General European fasteners rely on the DIN standard that requires 10mm, 13mm, 17mm and 19mm. I sometimes work on Japanese bikes and I have two Toyota cars too, those use some 12 and 14mm wrenches as well but those are also in the set I got...
I know the US metric system relies on the ISO specification which specifies 16 and 18mm sizes for M10 and M12. I have no idea why. Seems like such a dumb decision overall to mix in even more sizes. Maybe an 18mm screw saves a tiny bit of money per screw without compromising strength?
WWheeler
Well-known member
Easily the 'Best value' long pattern combos I've ever seen is the GearWrench 44pc set (81919) currently going for $240.
SAE 1/4" - 1-1/2" & metric 6mm - 32mm with very few skips.
1/4", 5/16", 11/32", 3/8", 7/16", 1/2", 9/16", 5/8", 11/16", 3/4", 13/16", 7/8", 15/16", 1", 1-1/16", 1-1/8", 1-1/4", 1-5/16", 1-1/2"
6mm, 7mm, 8mm, 9mm, 10mm, 11mm, 12mm, 13mm, 14mm, 15mm, 16mm, 17mm, 18mm, 19mm, 20mm, 21mm, 22mm, 23mm, 24mm, 25mm, 26mm, 27mm, 28mm, 30mm, 32mm
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H2W7LVK/?tag=atomicindus08-20
I've been using them for >6 years now with zero complaints.
SAE 1/4" - 1-1/2" & metric 6mm - 32mm with very few skips.
1/4", 5/16", 11/32", 3/8", 7/16", 1/2", 9/16", 5/8", 11/16", 3/4", 13/16", 7/8", 15/16", 1", 1-1/16", 1-1/8", 1-1/4", 1-5/16", 1-1/2"
6mm, 7mm, 8mm, 9mm, 10mm, 11mm, 12mm, 13mm, 14mm, 15mm, 16mm, 17mm, 18mm, 19mm, 20mm, 21mm, 22mm, 23mm, 24mm, 25mm, 26mm, 27mm, 28mm, 30mm, 32mm
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H2W7LVK/?tag=atomicindus08-20
I've been using them for >6 years now with zero complaints.
(EDIT: this forum software for quoting is diabolical. I can’t seem to add a proper quote in an edit.)
F-22 wrote:
I know the US metric system relies on the ISO specification which specifies 16 and 18mm sizes for M10 and M12. I have no idea why. Seems like such a dumb decision overall to mix in even more sizes.
Whatever the thinking behind it was, it’s frustrating.
Maybe the JIS head sizes were a little small on some screws, e.g. M10. But to introduce a new head size instead of just adopting DIN makes little sense from my perspective.
It’s not as if after the switchover to ISO we will be able to get rid of our 17 mm and 19 mm tools: they’ll be commonly needed for another 100 years. So it’s just a mess. A familiar mess:
https://xkcd.com/927/
Ironically, this metric mess makes the old imperial standards look rational!
F-22 wrote:
I know the US metric system relies on the ISO specification which specifies 16 and 18mm sizes for M10 and M12. I have no idea why. Seems like such a dumb decision overall to mix in even more sizes.
Whatever the thinking behind it was, it’s frustrating.
Maybe the JIS head sizes were a little small on some screws, e.g. M10. But to introduce a new head size instead of just adopting DIN makes little sense from my perspective.
It’s not as if after the switchover to ISO we will be able to get rid of our 17 mm and 19 mm tools: they’ll be commonly needed for another 100 years. So it’s just a mess. A familiar mess:
https://xkcd.com/927/
Ironically, this metric mess makes the old imperial standards look rational!
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roofdweller49
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My 18 and 16 always gets used when I'm working on my VW suspension. So yeah, not sure which standards they followed
ISO, probably. How old is the car? Built in the US?
15mm is one of the most common sizes on bikes. Things like axle nuts, the flats to attach peddles and other parts. It seems several different industries/countries all standardized around different metric sizes of choice. If you work on a Toyota (any Japanese car?) you want 10, 12, 14, 17mm If you work on German stuff I guess 13mm is common. On post metric Chrysler you need 8, 10, 13mm as well as torx. I assume that is something copied from Europe but I guess it could have been a Detroit thing when they switched over from SAE. So does it make more sense to do what the Japanese do and stick mostly with 10, 12 and 14mm or should they have dropped 12 and 14 in favor of just 13?
roofdweller49
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2009 made in Germany
Dave455
Well-known member
The US metric system is ANSI, which isn’t (or wasn’t) quite ISO metric.
Historically, the DIN system (German), for bolts of 5,6,8,10 and 12 used nut sizes of :
8
10
13
17 &
19.
An awful lot of European wrench sets only include these sizes, as that’s all most folks needed initially.
Bear in mind that obtaining individual wrenches in Europe is easy, and the prices are not loaded, so it’s easy to add more if you need more. Many sets include JIS (Japanese) sizes of 12 and 14.
The ANSI system (American Metric), as I understand it, used nut sizes of :
8
10
13
15
18
Not sure why the U.S. went for something different, but a clue may be that the change from SAE was only made because it was cheaper…! 15mm is the oddity as it doesn’t feature in any other standards that I can think of.
Since then, there has been a gradual move to ISO (International) sizes. These came about some years back, and seem to be something of a compromise.
ISO sizes are
8
10
13
16
18
A lot of manufacturers are now switching over to the ISO sizes, and in some cases the national standards are being modified.
Unfortunately, you can’t change what’s gone before, so sadly we all need a stack of wrenches!
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Wrote this explanation a while ago.
www.garagejournal.com
My day job gives me access to all these stds.
Missing sizes bother anyone else’s OCD? Where’s 31mm, 33mm, 27/32”, etc
Am I the only person whose OCD is bothered by missing sizes? Yeah, I get that there’s no 31mm or 33mm fasteners. So I don’t “need” 31mm or 33mm wrenches or sockets. BUT what if they start making fasteners in those sizes in the future? Now I have to buy a new tool that will not match with my...
www.garagejournal.com
My day job gives me access to all these stds.
Hah, that's an even bigger mess than I thought
15 mm is a size I normally only see on special fine threaded fasteners for whatever reason...Fedwrench
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I think many oil pan drain plugs on late model US badged vehicles have a 15 mm hex. 16 mm and many Fords.Hah, that's an even bigger mess than I thought
Pretty sure 16s and 18s are showing up in VWs
I’ve argued one doesn’t need every size. But you definitely should have every standard size. And it’s fine to focus on cars from a certain era, region etc, but good to know what the stds are for that.
We’re talking wrenches here. And this subject often is discussed about sockets. The real trick, the stuff that will really bring a job to a halt if you don’t have the right sizes are all the bit sockets, hex/Allen’s, torx, triple squares etc.
I’ve argued one doesn’t need every size. But you definitely should have every standard size. And it’s fine to focus on cars from a certain era, region etc, but good to know what the stds are for that.
We’re talking wrenches here. And this subject often is discussed about sockets. The real trick, the stuff that will really bring a job to a halt if you don’t have the right sizes are all the bit sockets, hex/Allen’s, torx, triple squares etc.
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Because the chances are good that you have another wrench that would work if you lack a 16 mm in your anti-slip combination spanner set, but if you lack an M10 triple-square socket you’re not likely to have four other sets of triple-square sockets to save you? Just wondering what you meant by this.
merkyworks
Well-known member
Hah, that's an even bigger mess than I thought
you must not work on fords cause drivertrain/suspension is like all 15 & 18 hex head fasteners
Yes Sir 100%. More: if you cheap out on bit sockets, they are soft, dull, don’t fit quite right, and you strip the screw head, you are totally screwed (no pun intended & DAMHIKT).
I have old sets of Allen’s that don’t include 3mm for example. That’s a real std size I think for an M4. And good luck trying your 1/8” in a 3mm hex.
My dodge Durango has 11mm socket head screws holding the calipers on. I think none of my SO sets came with that size.
We talk endlessly about socket quality and skips. To be honest, the fasteners giving me the most trouble are socket head cap screws. I consequently have a big assortment of different lengths and styles.
Looking down in my 56” top drawer, only 1/3 is regular sockets (bottom in pic below) 1/3 are bit sockets (middle), last (top) third is ratchets and extensions.
ChevyEFI
Well-known member
I imagine there's a feature of 17mm hex heads, such as washer surface, that's better. But I am okay with 15mm hex on m10 bolts and nuts across the board.