rsanter
Well-known member
that ***** because the cman pros were good wrenches
bob
bob
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Chinese Made Craftsman Professional Wrenches
- Thread starter Fedwrench
- Start date
Time to start looking at HF Pittsburgh. Their professional line looks pretty darn good. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same wrench with just a different name.
Id say if you look fast and hard you will find some US past models on Clearance. That will be your best bet to pick up some quality on the cheap i would presume.
geaugafletcher
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2008
- Messages
- 215
Blaming the consumer is a troll's canard. The decisions that eroded Craftsman quality (as plainly seen in the ratchet shootout threads) were begun years ago by the puppet masters at Sears. We can't even trust "Made in USA" anymore when we go to shop. It's shameful.
I'm reminded of the 80's when Japan imported excellent cars and Detroit answered with hammered sh&t. Greed and complacence are destructive and the stumbling zombies of GM and Fiatysler bear the ugly outcome from years of the same. GM may yet manage to drive a wooden stake in its own heart.
Craftsman had a unique and very valuable position, selling perfectly adequate and domestically made tools at a price affordable for Joe Sixpack. No more, and with that, the execs hand the victory to Harbor Fright. Save your "thanks" for those bozos and the rest of us will spend wisely whatever pennies are left over after the Feds squeeze our turnips to feed Detroit
I'm reminded of the 80's when Japan imported excellent cars and Detroit answered with hammered sh&t. Greed and complacence are destructive and the stumbling zombies of GM and Fiatysler bear the ugly outcome from years of the same. GM may yet manage to drive a wooden stake in its own heart.
Craftsman had a unique and very valuable position, selling perfectly adequate and domestically made tools at a price affordable for Joe Sixpack. No more, and with that, the execs hand the victory to Harbor Fright. Save your "thanks" for those bozos and the rest of us will spend wisely whatever pennies are left over after the Feds squeeze our turnips to feed Detroit
Last edited:
They for sure won't be clearanced. The regular and flare crow wrenches that I've seen with the new China offerings are just stacked on top of the existing older stock. Has the same part number.Id say if you look fast and hard you will find some US past models on Clearance. That will be your best bet to pick up some quality on the cheap i would presume.
They for sure won't be clearanced. The regular and flare crow wrenches that I've seen with the new China offerings are just stacked on top of the existing older stock. Has the same part number.
Ic.. Ill do some looking tomorrow and see if i can snag a pic or two.
I place the blame on all those who abuse the warrenty...................thanks for ruining one, if not the last great affordable USA made tool.
Are you kidding me? The warranty is factored into the price. They sell these tools knowing full well that EVERY ONE of them could come back to be swapped out under warranty. I don't buy this line of **** that I have read on this forum lately.
Craftsman quality has gone downhill in the last ten years. I bought my dad a tool set for father's day probably 10 years ago and that 3/8 ratchet is MILES better than the new **** they try to sell for even more money. I use a 44811 at work (on the boss' dime) and I am replacing the damned thing every other month.
I am excited to have some tools made in the USA, but a lot of those are either cheap **** or overpriced **** that helps pay the guy to come drop it off when it is convenient.
I am picking up European tools as quickly as the bank account lets me just for the fact that they are often made just as well as the truck brands but at less cost.
I place the blame on all those who abuse the warrenty...................thanks for ruining one, if not the last great affordable USA made tool.
I can apreciate your opinion but... I seriously doubt unethical warrantys had much to do with this change over. The thing about a tool warrantys is even when they exchange tools for broken, garage sale finds they still re-coup the steel that was used to make the tools. Im not saying that unethical warrantys dont cost the company but i suspect not warranting a tool would have a bigger impact on sales. This switch was done for 1 reason and 1 reason only and it boils down to the bottom line and clearly its cheaper to import the tool than pay Danaher to produce it here.
ok, after reading the last 2 post and some carefull thought, i have to rethink my opinion a bit, however, in a way, i still see the FRAGRANT abuse of any tool and then DEMANDING a warrenty on it as ABUSE of the original implied warrenty. I mean, what happened to common decency and honesty. if you broke it while abusing it, it's your fault, not the company...they don't owe your ****, buy a new one....if it broke under normal use, take it back....to me, it seems many of us have lost morals and are constantly demanding something for nothing
... still see the FRAGRANT abuse of any tool and then DEMANDING a warrenty on it as ABUSE of the original implied warrenty. I mean, what happened to common decency and honesty. if you broke it while abusing it, it's your fault, not the company...they don't owe your ****, buy a new one....if it broke under normal use, take it back....to me, it seems many of us have lost morals and are constantly demanding something for nothing
Abuse of the warranty didn't drive this change, but I have to agree with your comments - it bugs me too that some people abuse it.
ok, after reading the last 2 post and some carefull thought, i have to rethink my opinion a bit, however, in a way, i still see the FRAGRANT abuse of any tool and then DEMANDING a warrenty on it as ABUSE of the original implied warrenty. I mean, what happened to common decency and honesty. if you broke it while abusing it, it's your fault, not the company...they don't owe your ****, buy a new one....if it broke under normal use, take it back....to me, it seems many of us have lost morals and are constantly demanding something for nothing
The word is flagrant. Fragrant means indicates something smells.
Along with the majority of all corporate ****** decisions this one was probably made by the bean-counters plain and simple. This is what happens when the finance guys are in charge, decisions are made to increase the "bottom line" or the "shareholder value". Probaly getting ready to peddle Craftsman off to the highest bidder and they figure if thay can slip in the China production and show an increased profit margin while the Average Joe still hasn't discovered they've been douped they can make a killing on the sale of the Craftsman name.
mrholeshot
MEMBER EMERITUS
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2010
- Messages
- 8,043
It just make me shake my head in disbeleif when I read some of the stuff I do on here about someone buying a set of sockets made in China or anywhere else outside the US is costing American Jobs. Harbor Freight employs more that 7400 workers nationwide. They are the BIGGEST employer in Dillion County SC.(I frequent this store often) It has over a 1,000,000 square foot dist center. They put jobs in an area where 30 other companies have pulled out of in the last 10 years. Despite the products they sell being imported the company is US owned, Is putting food on the table of 7400+ American workers not to mention the related jobs they create such as the truck drivers needed to haul the stuff right on to the dock workers used to unload it.
Whats really more unfortunate is that Made In USA doesn't carry the prestige that it once did. Ive been around long enough to remember when It was much easier to find USA built tools than tools from overseas. But I can also tell you this. Back in the day not all tools that had Made In USA stamped on them were good tools. I can show you some made in the USA absolute **** that came out of the 60's, 70's.
You can't blame the consumer for spend 10 dollars on a China built ratchet where the quality is twice as good a a US model that cost nearly two times as much. You also can't blame the average Joe for spending 10 dollars on a tool that will do the same job as a 100 dollar tool built for a professional technician. The money saved from that one sale can buy other American made goods and services. Saving a few dollars on tools also gives an advantage to some young technicians just getting started not to sell their soul to the tool man. The money he saves can help him buy a home, pay the bills, etc. It's a tough row to hoe out there right now for technicians right now with so many dealerships going under. To blame some guy who saves a few dollars on his tools in order to keep his family fed vs being overwhelmed by 100+ dollar a week tool payment may be the glue that holds that family unit together and keeps the burden off the state because daddy or Mommy got overwhelmed and called it quits and leaves the burden on one parent or keeps the family so broke that they are dependant on the state to feed them.
Bottom line is that Place like Harbor Freight has rescued a town like Dillon SC and kept about 800 people in that area off state assistance. The people that buy there keep those people in a job. It's a ripple effect. Some people don't look at the big picture before getting a case of diareha of the mouth.
Whats really more unfortunate is that Made In USA doesn't carry the prestige that it once did. Ive been around long enough to remember when It was much easier to find USA built tools than tools from overseas. But I can also tell you this. Back in the day not all tools that had Made In USA stamped on them were good tools. I can show you some made in the USA absolute **** that came out of the 60's, 70's.
You can't blame the consumer for spend 10 dollars on a China built ratchet where the quality is twice as good a a US model that cost nearly two times as much. You also can't blame the average Joe for spending 10 dollars on a tool that will do the same job as a 100 dollar tool built for a professional technician. The money saved from that one sale can buy other American made goods and services. Saving a few dollars on tools also gives an advantage to some young technicians just getting started not to sell their soul to the tool man. The money he saves can help him buy a home, pay the bills, etc. It's a tough row to hoe out there right now for technicians right now with so many dealerships going under. To blame some guy who saves a few dollars on his tools in order to keep his family fed vs being overwhelmed by 100+ dollar a week tool payment may be the glue that holds that family unit together and keeps the burden off the state because daddy or Mommy got overwhelmed and called it quits and leaves the burden on one parent or keeps the family so broke that they are dependant on the state to feed them.
Bottom line is that Place like Harbor Freight has rescued a town like Dillon SC and kept about 800 people in that area off state assistance. The people that buy there keep those people in a job. It's a ripple effect. Some people don't look at the big picture before getting a case of diareha of the mouth.
GeorgiaHybrid
Well-known member
The word is flagrant. Fragrant means indicates something smells.
I don't know about you but someone abusing the warranty stinks.... That would make the OP correct on a different level.....
I never knew we had so many English majors on this board.
GeorgiaHybrid
Well-known member
Whats really more unfortunate is that Made In USA doesn't carry the prestige that it once did. Ive been around long enough to remember when It was much easier to find USA built tools than tools from overseas. But I can also tell you this. Back in the day not all tools that had Made In USA stamped on them were good tools. I can show you some made in the USA absolute **** that came out of the 60's, 70's.
I agree that we produced some **** tools in that time frame but the imports eliminated those companies by selling crappy tools at a lower price. What has a lot of us upset is the fact that this country produces mid grade and high end (truck brand) tools and imports cheaper tools (for the average Joe that does not know what a hammer is for). The average American homeowner does not care or need any tool that would be considered midgrade or above and will buy imports.
It is that midgrade area that we are now letting go by the wayside. There used to be a lot of companies in this area (SK, Wright, Blackhawk and yes, Sears) but they are dropping out of the American production of tools by the day. This brings us back to Sears. The "Evolv" line of tools is their "cheap" import line. I have no problem with that as they must have a line to compete with the likes of Harbor Freight.
I might be able to come to terms with their decision to start selling import tools under the Craftsman label (although I doubt it) but to import the "professional" line of Craftsman tools is reprehensible . They can charge a higher premium for those tools and still make a good profit even it means increasing the price to make an acceptable profit.
There has always been a place for a mid-grade tool in this country for the beginning professional or advanced hobbyist and I have no doubt that need still exists today. Unless we complain (and loudly) to Sears, about this, other companies will look at this success as a reason to offshore more and more of even the hard line premium tool brands.
Last edited:
rayzor32
Well-known member
It just make me shake my head in disbeleif when I read some of the stuff I do on here about someone buying a set of sockets made in China or anywhere else outside the US is costing American Jobs. Harbor Freight employs more that 7400 workers nationwide. They are the BIGGEST employer in Dillion County SC.(I frequent this store often) It has over a 1,000,000 square foot dist center. They put jobs in an area where 30 other companies have pulled out of in the last 10 years. Despite the products they sell being imported the company is US owned, Is putting food on the table of 7400+ American workers not to mention the related jobs they create such as the truck drivers needed to haul the stuff right on to the dock workers used to unload it.
Whats really more unfortunate is that Made In USA doesn't carry the prestige that it once did. Ive been around long enough to remember when It was much easier to find USA built tools than tools from overseas. But I can also tell you this. Back in the day not all tools that had Made In USA stamped on them were good tools. I can show you some made in the USA absolute **** that came out of the 60's, 70's.
You can't blame the consumer for spend 10 dollars on a China built ratchet where the quality is twice as good a a US model that cost nearly two times as much. You also can't blame the average Joe for spending 10 dollars on a tool that will do the same job as a 100 dollar tool built for a professional technician. The money saved from that one sale can buy other American made goods and services. Saving a few dollars on tools also gives an advantage to some young technicians just getting started not to sell their soul to the tool man. The money he saves can help him buy a home, pay the bills, etc. It's a tough row to hoe out there right now for technicians right now with so many dealerships going under. To blame some guy who saves a few dollars on his tools in order to keep his family fed vs being overwhelmed by 100+ dollar a week tool payment may be the glue that holds that family unit together and keeps the burden off the state because daddy or Mommy got overwhelmed and called it quits and leaves the burden on one parent or keeps the family so broke that they are dependant on the state to feed them.
Bottom line is that Place like Harbor Freight has rescued a town like Dillon SC and kept about 800 people in that area off state assistance. The people that buy there keep those people in a job. It's a ripple effect. Some people don't look at the big picture before getting a case of diareha of the mouth.
Are you kidding me man yes they put jobs in a hicktown in SC but how good is a 10/hr warehouse job in a non union state hicktown... We need good paying jobs like the ones found in...... manufacturing! When harbor freight builds a tool stamping plant there and pays their employees a decent wage and health benefits then we'll talk about them "saving a town". Your money is still going to the short yellow guy halfway across the world.
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
let me restate that YES you have to blame the consumer.........
the bottom line is profit. if people refused to buy chinese made good there would be no profit for the company. face it we vote with our wallets and i truly believe the younger generation cares less about american maufacturing than the generations before.
sears tried to go offshore 30 years ago and it was the CONSUMER who stopped it by not purchasing the tools. the bean counters now see people flocking to HF, gearwrench, etc and can see that the consumer now doesn't care about COO anymore all they care about is price point. and thier right.........with few exceptions.
doesn't hold water? craziest thing you've ever heard? think about it for a minute then YOU tell me.............
the bottom line is profit. if people refused to buy chinese made good there would be no profit for the company. face it we vote with our wallets and i truly believe the younger generation cares less about american maufacturing than the generations before.
sears tried to go offshore 30 years ago and it was the CONSUMER who stopped it by not purchasing the tools. the bean counters now see people flocking to HF, gearwrench, etc and can see that the consumer now doesn't care about COO anymore all they care about is price point. and thier right.........with few exceptions.
doesn't hold water? craziest thing you've ever heard? think about it for a minute then YOU tell me.............
let me restate that YES you have to blame the consumer.........
the bottom line is profit. if people refused to buy chinese made good there would be no profit for the company. face it we vote with our wallets and i truly believe the younger generation cares less about american maufacturing than the generations before.
sears tried to go offshore 30 years ago and it was the CONSUMER who stopped it by not purchasing the tools. the bean counters now see people flocking to HF, gearwrench, etc and can see that the consumer now doesn't care about COO anymore all they care about is price point. and thier right.........with few exceptions.
doesn't hold water? craziest thing you've ever heard? think about it for a minute then YOU tell me.............
If Cman were not diluting their quality by the day, people would not care as much if the product is made overseas. Compare a 15 year old 3/8 DR ratchet with a brand new one. The tolerances are tighter on the older one and the older one is much stronger.
I am sick and tired of reading on this forum about how bad the younger generation is for America. We care about Made in USA, but we do not have the means to buy an $80 ratchet or pay $125 for four screwdrivers. We have to maximize our bang for the buck and that means top of the line imported tools. If American companies made a GREAT quality tool at a reasonable price, there would be no reason to buy an imported tool. Read that last line. If an American company made a ratchet as good as the Gearwrench ratchet at the same price point or cheaper, we wouldn't buy the GW one. Go compare a new 44811 Cman to an older one. There is no comparison.
You know why people are flocking to Gearwrench? It is a superior product.
Coach James
Well-known member
Just for the heck of it, I emailed Sears last night and asked about the C-man Pro wrenches. This is the answer I got.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for contacting Sears.com. We thank you for your interest in the Craftsman Professional 13 pc. Metric 12 pt. Full Polish Combination Wrench Set, Sears Item# 00945964000. This set is manufactured in the USA. We hope you have foundthis information helpful and we look forward to your response!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coach
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for contacting Sears.com. We thank you for your interest in the Craftsman Professional 13 pc. Metric 12 pt. Full Polish Combination Wrench Set, Sears Item# 00945964000. This set is manufactured in the USA. We hope you have foundthis information helpful and we look forward to your response!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coach
What was the economy like 30 years ago? Hell, what was the country like 30 years ago? Pretty different in many ways. Not much stuff made across the ocean but somehow over the years their product has been slowly injected into our lifestyle that no one seems to care about another tool being made in China (except us). Blah blah I know it's been said before....
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
If Cman were not diluting their quality by the day, people would not care as much if the product is made overseas. Compare a 15 year old 3/8 DR ratchet with a brand new one. The tolerances are tighter on the older one and the older one is much stronger.
I am sick and tired of reading on this forum about how bad the younger generation is for America. We care about Made in USA, but we do not have the means to buy an $80 ratchet or pay $125 for four screwdrivers. We have to maximize our bang for the buck and that means top of the line imported tools. If American companies made a GREAT quality tool at a reasonable price, there would be no reason to buy an imported tool. Read that last line. If an American company made a ratchet as good as the Gearwrench ratchet at the same price point or cheaper, we wouldn't buy the GW one. Go compare a new 44811 Cman to an older one. There is no comparison.
You know why people are flocking to Gearwrench? It is a superior product.
this is exactly what i'm talking about...........and it proves my point.
we justify our support of foriegn products by price point. quality? sure the imports are better than they used to be but the money we save now has a long term effect on our economy. wake up america!
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
What was the economy like 30 years ago? Hell, what was the country like 30 years ago?
i don't think the economy was much different........1980 had high unemplyment and runaway inflation, and it may have been worse than today.
kythri
Well-known member
I never knew we had so many English majors on this board.
I, too, am amazed at those who display their literacy skills. Those darned book readers should go away, and leave this place to us Skoal chewers.
kythri
Well-known member
The bottom line is profit. Although the new Chinese made full polished Professional set lists the same as the US made set ($99.99), I doubt if Sears pays the same per set as they did for the US made sets.
At the moment, they might be witnessing a cost savings by shifting production.
That said, according to all kinds of different media, the valuation of the Chinese Yuan vs. the US Dollar is shifting in favor of China, and costs to produce things there are going up.
We could also assume that costs to produce things here in the USA are going up, so this particular shift could be seen to be an attempt to keep the retail price point where it's at, rather than raising it - hence they may not be charging a "premium" as others said, but simply maintaining the "value" to the consumer.
Someone in another thread said that we can avoid this issue by "purchasing tools from Wisconsin" or something similar. We've already seen that brand start "hiding" the COO by removing the markings from their tools. I would seriously hope that there's nobody deluded enough to believe the official corporate answer that this is being done because the COO isn't important to overseas consumers. EVERYONE will be shifting production overseas if the economy doesn't do better. Masking the COO is simply a step taken to soften the blow. Opening your own factory in China, or partnering with existing factories in China is another step.
The list of companies producing stuff domestically is shrinking every day, and the companies that still do produce domestically are undoubtedly viewing overseas production as a potential option if things get worse.
(I'm sure I'll be labeled as a Craftsman apologist, but so be it.)
geaugafletcher
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2008
- Messages
- 215
Krusty, your viewpoint simply makes no sense. Craftsman didn't lower their prices to compete with imports, they mysteriously lowered their quality and kept the price the same! Yet you still blame the consumer because he goes for the best value.
It's simple: provide quality and the consumer will buy it. Do you not see that Craftsman's new ratchets ... ****? What incentive is there to purchase one? Heck, if the Taiwan-made HF were more expensive, it would still be the better choice because the Craftsman just doesn't offer value for dollar spent anymore.
It's laudable to support domestic companies, but this kind of jingoism is the same stuff that enabled Detroit's output of junk for THIRTY YEARS (give or take) and eventually played a significant role in destroying two of the big three. It's incredible that blind brand loyalty kept the three afloat for so long, what a tremendous power that was and they squandered it. Reward a company for selling ever-crumbier products and see what it gets you. Then reward a company that sells ever-improving products. Getting the picture?
It's simple: provide quality and the consumer will buy it. Do you not see that Craftsman's new ratchets ... ****? What incentive is there to purchase one? Heck, if the Taiwan-made HF were more expensive, it would still be the better choice because the Craftsman just doesn't offer value for dollar spent anymore.
It's laudable to support domestic companies, but this kind of jingoism is the same stuff that enabled Detroit's output of junk for THIRTY YEARS (give or take) and eventually played a significant role in destroying two of the big three. It's incredible that blind brand loyalty kept the three afloat for so long, what a tremendous power that was and they squandered it. Reward a company for selling ever-crumbier products and see what it gets you. Then reward a company that sells ever-improving products. Getting the picture?
SnowBlaZeR2
Well-known member
If American companies made a GREAT quality tool at a reasonable price, there would be no reason to buy an imported tool.
When Americans are willing to start working for about $300 a month, maybe we can start selling the same quality tool at the same price point as imported tools.
i don't think the economy was much different........1980 had high unemplyment and runaway inflation, and it may have been worse than today.
Yes, but what was the average salary of a factory worker back then, compared with today? I don't know for sure, but I do know that factory workers are paid much better today than in the past.
SnowBlaZeR2
Well-known member
Krusty, your viewpoint simply makes no sense. Craftsman didn't lower their prices to compete with imports, they mysteriously lowered their quality and kept the price the same! Yet you still blame the consumer because he goes for the best value.
It's simple: provide quality and the consumer will buy it. Do you not see that Craftsman's new ratchets ... ****? What incentive is there to purchase one? Heck, if the Taiwan-made HF were more expensive, it would still be the better choice because the Craftsman just doesn't offer value for dollar spent anymore.
kythri just said it. They are trying to keep their prices the same. They have a few choices. Overseas/same price, USA/higher price and better quality USA/price no one would pay. It's not mysterious in any way. I haven't seen any evidence of a lower quality in the Chinese made tools over the same USA made tool. They chose to send production overseas. My guess is that they want the average consumer to see that even with the state of the economy today, good old Craftsman is still maintaining the same prices for the working man. Do I agree with that? Absolutely not. I don't buy very many things that have both Craftsman and China stamped on them.
woody 73
Well-known member
let me restate that YES you have to blame the consumer.........
the bottom line is profit. if people refused to buy chinese made good there would be no profit for the company. face it we vote with our wallets and i truly believe the younger generation cares less about american maufacturing than the generations before.
sears tried to go offshore 30 years ago and it was the CONSUMER who stopped it by not purchasing the tools. the bean counters now see people flocking to HF, gearwrench, etc and can see that the consumer now doesn't care about COO anymore all they care about is price point. and thier right.........with few exceptions.
doesn't hold water? craziest thing you've ever heard? think about it for a minute then YOU tell me.............
Krusty is right 30 years ago I watched sears sell overseas tools,the consumers said no and sears stopped this tactic.
I asked a group of people at a party and they only want cheap tools,they don't give a hoot where the tools are made. Times have changed I am of the age that I can remember when made in the USA ment something to the everyday man.
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
it doesn't make sense to you because you don't understand it.......value is more than price point. sears has the oportunity to find a higher quality domestic source or a higher quality import source. that decision is thiers to make based on market trends. if the american tool buying cared about COO then sears would be forced to choose another domestic manufacturer or force danaher to a higher standard.Krusty, your viewpoint simply makes no sense. Craftsman didn't lower their prices to compete with imports, they mysteriously lowered their quality and kept the price the same! Yet you still blame the consumer because he goes for the best value.
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
Yes, but what was the average salary of a factory worker back then, compared with today? I don't know for sure, but I do know that factory workers are paid much better today than in the past.
i think if you factor in inflation you'll find that the american worker makes less today. we have less buying power.
i know that i make about twice what i did in 1980 but consumer prices have tripled.
kythri
Well-known member
Do you not see that Craftsman's new ratchets ... ****? What incentive is there to purchase one? Heck, if the Taiwan-made HF were more expensive, it would still be the better choice because the Craftsman just doesn't offer value for dollar spent anymore.
I know you posed this to Krusty, but I can't be the only one that truly DOESN'T see that the ratchets ****.
I use these things on a pretty regular basis (FULL DISCLOSURE: I'M A WEEKEND WRENCHER WORKING ON SEVERAL PROJECTS. I'M NOT A PROFESSIONAL MECHANIC. IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER, BUT SOME THINK IT DOES.) and I've seriously had little to no issues with these things. I've got raised panels, I've got the "pro" full-polish handles, I've got the next-gen/thin-profiles, I've got the RHFT jobs. They're all fantastic. They work great. They don't break. They don't slip. My experiences with these do NOT jibe with the recent ratchet shoot-out where the thing self-reversed with alarming regularity.
It's laudable to support domestic companies, but this kind of jingoism is the same stuff that enabled Detroit's output of junk for THIRTY YEARS (give or take) and eventually played a significant role in destroying two of the big three. It's incredible that blind brand loyalty kept the three afloat for so long, what a tremendous power that was and they squandered it. Reward a company for selling ever-crumbier products and see what it gets you. Then reward a company that sells ever-improving products. Getting the picture?
I don't think it's jingoism to support any of the Big 3 automakers, either. The so-called "imports" (so-called because, let's face it, the "domestic" automakers import as much, if not more, of their autos into the US as the "imports" do, and the "imports" manufacture as much, if not more, of their autos as the "domestics" do) typically don't produce anything I want. I *LIKE* Ford trucks. I *DO NOT LIKE* Chevy trucks, Dodge trucks, Toyota trucks. I *LIKE* Ford sedans, Chevy sedans, Dodge sedans. I don't like most "import" sedans.
The imports are great cars, sure, but I don't think the domestics are any slouches. My parents and grandparents have never owned an import. I had a Suzuki Samurai for a while, and I had a Nissan 720. Both were great/fun little rides, but they needed just as many repairs, and had just as many breakdowns as the domestics I've owned (and continue to own).
Conversely, a buddy of mine is all Toyota. He has a '79? Hilux, an '82 Corolla, a '92 MR2 and an '05 IS300. None of these have been any shining example of hyper-reliability. They're cars. Things break, things get fixed. His do so about as often as mine.
kythri
Well-known member
Times have changed I am of the age that I can remember when made in the USA ment something to the everyday man.
It still does.
Unfortunately, what it normally means today is overpriced average quality products typically produced by overpaid low-skilled labor, and many people have realized that that there's little value in that.
Those "how it's made" videos that have been posted recently (great vids, by the way!) - how much do you figure the folks in those videos are paid for picking something up out of one bin, and putting it on hooks in a machine?
+1 to both Krusty & Woody. Like or not, the only purpose of a corporation is to make money for its shareholders. If it finds that the best way to do that is to provide good products at realistic prices, then that's what it will do. On the other hand, if it finds that the most profitable way to make money is to fleece consumers, then that's what it will do, within the limit of the law and the customers' tolerance. Most companies are between these extremes. But a company must exploit its market position to the maximum of its ability because that's what its competitors are doing, and if it doesn't it will fail or be subsumed by a competitor.
The vast, vast majority of consumers look at price only. If this widget is $5 and that one is $10, and there's no glaring difference between the two, then the $5 widget will succeed and the $10 widget will disappear from the marketplace.
Acceptable-quality Chinese-made tools are the $5 widgets. To compete with those, American-made widgets have to match the price (+/-). Given that the standard of living is much higher in the US than China, consequently manufacturing costs are higher (labor costs, environmental protection -- do you want to breathe Shanghai air? -- materials, etc). Therefore you must reduce quality to meet the pricepoint. If you can't or are unwilling to do that, then you move production overseas, which allows you to maintain quality without pricing yourself out of the market.
Unfortunately, by snapping up the $5 widgets we as consumers are helping ourselves in the short term (by saving ourselves money for other things -- like food & rent) and screwing ourselves long term by destroying or own jobs. If the yuan starts to rise and the Chinese start selling of their immense hoard of dollars, it would be the best thing they could do for us. Their currency would rise, ours would fall, and we could start making things in this country competitively again and stop buying from them, and maybe we could increase our exports.
The joys of free-market economics.....
The vast, vast majority of consumers look at price only. If this widget is $5 and that one is $10, and there's no glaring difference between the two, then the $5 widget will succeed and the $10 widget will disappear from the marketplace.
Acceptable-quality Chinese-made tools are the $5 widgets. To compete with those, American-made widgets have to match the price (+/-). Given that the standard of living is much higher in the US than China, consequently manufacturing costs are higher (labor costs, environmental protection -- do you want to breathe Shanghai air? -- materials, etc). Therefore you must reduce quality to meet the pricepoint. If you can't or are unwilling to do that, then you move production overseas, which allows you to maintain quality without pricing yourself out of the market.
Unfortunately, by snapping up the $5 widgets we as consumers are helping ourselves in the short term (by saving ourselves money for other things -- like food & rent) and screwing ourselves long term by destroying or own jobs. If the yuan starts to rise and the Chinese start selling of their immense hoard of dollars, it would be the best thing they could do for us. Their currency would rise, ours would fall, and we could start making things in this country competitively again and stop buying from them, and maybe we could increase our exports.
The joys of free-market economics.....
geaugafletcher
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2008
- Messages
- 215
When I say "...doesn't offer value for dollar spent..." the implication, "value != price" should be pretty clear.
We spend a lot of time on this forum complaining that Craftsman quality just isn't what it used to be. The value, the way we evaluate price vs. quality, has changed over time and at present, the conclusion is no longer favorable. See Craftsman screwdrivers (not the Pro version) as an example. Although their price has increased with inflation (just a guess) the quality has fallen. How is that meant to compete with cheaper alternatives? Sounds to me like corporate greed bears more of the burden than the invisible hand in this case. If somebody has figures comparing inflation to Craftsman screwdriver prices and production costs, I'm glad to step back and rethink this.
Now, has consumers' history choosing cheaper tools of lesser quality contributed? Sure, but not to the degree necessary to solely effect the current situation - I assert that Craftsman's poor response and lack of innovative competition has done far more to make things the way they are. Long ago, they must have decided to sunset the brand - or simply got complacent and quit planning. We all know of the ubiquitous bad reports about Sears/Craftsman website service and the wildly inconsistent customer service in brick and mortar stores. The corporate culture is complacent and rotten.
As for the automakers, the big three woke up too late - by the time their products started to really compete in terms of quality, the market was fed up with the years of laziness. That anybody historically liked a Chevy better than a Honda says nothing about quality but something about brand loyalty. I put Craftsman in the same spot now as GM was in the early seventies.
We spend a lot of time on this forum complaining that Craftsman quality just isn't what it used to be. The value, the way we evaluate price vs. quality, has changed over time and at present, the conclusion is no longer favorable. See Craftsman screwdrivers (not the Pro version) as an example. Although their price has increased with inflation (just a guess) the quality has fallen. How is that meant to compete with cheaper alternatives? Sounds to me like corporate greed bears more of the burden than the invisible hand in this case. If somebody has figures comparing inflation to Craftsman screwdriver prices and production costs, I'm glad to step back and rethink this.
Now, has consumers' history choosing cheaper tools of lesser quality contributed? Sure, but not to the degree necessary to solely effect the current situation - I assert that Craftsman's poor response and lack of innovative competition has done far more to make things the way they are. Long ago, they must have decided to sunset the brand - or simply got complacent and quit planning. We all know of the ubiquitous bad reports about Sears/Craftsman website service and the wildly inconsistent customer service in brick and mortar stores. The corporate culture is complacent and rotten.
As for the automakers, the big three woke up too late - by the time their products started to really compete in terms of quality, the market was fed up with the years of laziness. That anybody historically liked a Chevy better than a Honda says nothing about quality but something about brand loyalty. I put Craftsman in the same spot now as GM was in the early seventies.
geaugafletcher
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2008
- Messages
- 215
That "import" car companies now manufacture in the States proves that they beat the big three at their own game. Over the last ten years or so, the big three realized they've been caught with their pants down and desperately try to dig out by outsourcing manufacture to Mexico, etc. Anything to cut costs and rebuild their financial resources to start giving good answers to strong competitors.
To continue on this tangent, Honda quality peaked in the early to mid-nineties (in my opinion), just when GM was slowly rubbing its eyes. Since then, Honda's quality has suffered while GM has been slowly ramping up. It might be enough (along with a huge dang bailout).
To continue on this tangent, Honda quality peaked in the early to mid-nineties (in my opinion), just when GM was slowly rubbing its eyes. Since then, Honda's quality has suffered while GM has been slowly ramping up. It might be enough (along with a huge dang bailout).
SocketDeviler
Well-known member
Do you guys just reserve this Made in America passion for tools and maybe cars? 'Cause that's just a drop in the bucket. I've seen a lot of fellas go on about their American made tools but damn near everything else in their material life was imported and to that they shrugged their shoulders. We need a lot more than tool manufacturing here. That the average person can only get a job paying what I was paid to work at a gas station in the 90s is appalling.
Recently at a garage sale I bought a still sealed cleaning cloth designed for TV and computer screens. It was made here in the US back in the 80s. Something so basic to make has long since been shipped overseas. I see this all the time at garage and estate sales. Can't say I've seen too many threads on saving those less manly things. Makes me wonder just how serious all this talk is. Tool manufacturing might help but it won't save us.
Recently at a garage sale I bought a still sealed cleaning cloth designed for TV and computer screens. It was made here in the US back in the 80s. Something so basic to make has long since been shipped overseas. I see this all the time at garage and estate sales. Can't say I've seen too many threads on saving those less manly things. Makes me wonder just how serious all this talk is. Tool manufacturing might help but it won't save us.
rayzor32
Well-known member
i think if you factor in inflation you'll find that the american worker makes less today. we have less buying power.
i know that i make about twice what i did in 1980 but consumer prices have tripled.
MUCH less when my uncle retired from the ford plant 15 years ago he was making 30.23/hr. My cousin still works there and they only make 32.03/hr now, a $1.80 raise in 15 years? IF the day ever comes that they hire new people they'll be getting paid 14/hr with reduced benefits, thats over a 50% paycut!!! Why? So they can compete with damn toyota! Who house their plants in anti-union hick towns!! Toyota will NEVER build a plant in a town like detroit or buffalo. And THATS every industry our wages and standards of living are falling one by one.. gm, ford, chrysler, delphi, american axle. We have to lower our wages to compete with the damn yellow guy that will work for 25 cents an hour!!! As the guy above said before you vote with your wallet!!!
As said above nothings made in this country anymore and that's why their is no jobs. Half of MAC's tools are made in taiwan and snap-on is starting to outsource more and more by the day. If it aint made in the usa I tell the tool guys I aint buying it. If I was going to buy an asian tool id go to harbor freight and pick it up at a cheap price. Cheap tool = cheap price, and they are trying to get a PREMIUM price for a whoever-a-nese made tool
Last edited:
kythri
Well-known member
Do you guys just reserve this Made in America passion for tools and maybe cars? 'Cause that's just a drop in the bucket.
Oh, I'll freely admit to being part of the problem (if it wasn't obvious by my lack of "USA OR BUST!" posts), to be sure. I'll buy US-made over foriegn-made when I can, but I'm not going to go out of my way (or pay significant premiums) to do so.
I'm a "big-and-tall" kinda guy. I'm 6'9" tall, and I'm at about 375lbs right now (down from 400 and still dropping, go diet!). I've never really made a point of looking for US-made clothing that fits my frame, but I'll tell you what - it doesn't exist in any convenient single location, like a big-and-tall specialty store or big-and-tall section of another store.
I'm folding laundry right now, and decided to check COO of my clothes.
They're all made overseas:
Slacks: Bangladesh
T-shirts: India
Polos: Pakistan
Black Oxford Shoes (no-name): China
Brown Oxford Shoes (Skechers): China
Street shoes (Reeboks): Vietnam
Hell, even my boxers are made in Mexico.
Try finding a PC/Laptop made in the US. Most home electronics are overseas-sourced.
In many/most cases, I simply can't find a US-made product for my needs/desires, and the very few times I can, it's double to quintuple the price.
As has already been mentioned, there's a LOT of jobs to get that import stuff into the country. The logistics, marketing and retail end are all pretty much US-jobs.
Are they as high paying as domestic manufacturing? In many cases, probably not.
I'd bet money that there's a LOT more of them, though, than there would be if there weren't any import products.