I'm confused... Do you know what a bit torrent is? I'm sure I'm not busting anyones chops though. Damn... It's rough around here at midnight.
Chinese Made Craftsman Professional Wrenches
- Thread starter Fedwrench
- Start date
I'm confused... Do you know what a bit torrent is? I'm sure I'm not busting anyones chops though. Damn... It's rough around here at midnight.
SocketDeviler
Well-known member
Sorry, I misunderstood the connection you were making. Given the hatred of theft around here I found the proposed option to download a just released game rather awkward.
phi2039
Well-known member
After reading this whole thread...I just had to comment, but I will only comment on facts. You can all continue the debate as you please...
Wrench manufacturing is actually quite labor intensive, expecially for larger sizes and lower-volume parts. Forging is done by hand, by higly-skilled workers who take 6 months of producing scrap before they make their first good wrench froging. Broaching the open- and box-ends requires handling to load each wrench in the fixtures (handling generally takes much longer than the actual machining operation), the same holds for surfacing the open end (2 sides) and stamping the size(s) and brand / part number. The wrench then has to be hand-loaded on a rack for plating, hand-unloaded from the rack, and hand-placed into packaging. In addition to all these per-piece handling operations, the wrenches are loaded into heat-treatment and vibratory polishing equipment in batches by material handlers. All in all, the machine time for a wrench is actually a very small percentage of the overall time invested in its manufacture...just thought I would clear up that little bit of confusion...proceed with the debate...
I had NO idea that they still hand forged Wrenches... You mean to tell me they dont use a machine to stamp the initial Pattern of the Wrenches? When you say "Hand forged" I picture a anvil, 2 workers and alternating swings with a big hammer. You sure about that? Im gonna go find me some "How its made Snap on videos"
Was at Sears in Colorado Springs today and bought the SAE Cman Pro set which is marked "made in USA" on the packaging and each wrench has USA on it. Same set up for the metric set. Did not see any China Professional wrenches. The tool salesman, who is frankly a complete idiot, said he doesn't know of any upcoming changes.
But all Professional wrench sets were on "clearance" sale. ???
Maybe the transition is occurring at different rates throughout the country.
But all Professional wrench sets were on "clearance" sale. ???
Maybe the transition is occurring at different rates throughout the country.
"Forged by hand" is a is a bit of an overdramatization and is often used today more as a marketing phrase. The term could be applied to loads of things, hand stamped, hand forged etc etc.. its still a machine doing 99% of the work. Its been done with a giant press and dies for years and years. labor intensive to me isnt moving the item from an automated machine to the next. I guess it just depends on how you interprit the term.
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MrMark
Well-known member
Check out the Hazet wrench making video, Hiball. It is pretty amazing, and it is all forged with machines beating down on the hot metal.
Yeah i watched the snap on video, They use a 3 step process all done by a press, It appears it does take a employee to move it from step to step but i wouldnt consider that "Hand forging".
MrMark
Well-known member
In the Hazet video, as I remember, the guy positions by hand the blank and manipulates the blank as the machine beats down on it in a number of steps. It looks like there is a great deal of skill involved. Yeah, its automated but it is still labor intensive by my terms. I would consider it hand forging.
Yeah i gave it quick glance, Im sure it takes skill to produce a perfect wrench from start to finish. Looking at the Snappy video it appears the skill comes into play after the blank is stamped and prior to plating. It looks like thats the only time a human hand is involved other than polishing.
OK PHI2039, If I remember correctly, you're a Danaher (Apex) ratchet and drive tool developer. How much of the current Craftsman hardline is going to be replaced with Chinese made Craftsman labeled Gearwrench clones? Is the Craftsman professional line of wrenches and ratchets going away?
Unless its changed GearWrench has been largely Taiwanese COO and of very good quality. I have full sets both metric and standard their box wrenches in full polish, they're excellent. Same with the locking flex and X-Beams. Are they now chinese?
Most of it has moved to China.
That depends who you ask. China [PRC] doesnt recognize Taiwan, the US does. Its still very much a controversy for Red China however Taiwan is still self governed as well. And it is still is called "Taiwan".
That said, it ***** if they've dumped production to Chinese factories.
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RbrtAWhyt
Well-known member
Why in the hell wouldn't you step up to a 1/2" in that situation?
Lack of space.
phi2039
Well-known member
Nice try...but you know that I cannot comment on these types of things...
<begin official lingo>
Only Sears Brand Management Corp. is in a position to make statements regarding their future product plans, and to my knowledge, thay have not released any news on this topic...
</end official lingo>
As for the manufacturing process comments from others...I am glad to see that you all did some research. It is really something to watch a guy take a blank, heat it in a coil, and work it through the forge dies.
On the debate about what 'hand-forged' means, the drop- or hammer-forging processes have been in use for the better part of a century, so my definition of hand forged applies to that process and means that human hands manually positioned the blank and guided the part through the dies. An apprentice forge operator make 60% to 70% scrap for his/her first 6 months on the job (and that is working full time, not practice)...
Coach James
Well-known member
I also emailed Sears and asked if production was going overseas for the Pro wrenches. Their answer was that they cannot comment on where tools will be produced in the future.
Coach
Coach
I Hope that you had a couple comments for them.... Im telling you guys, I talked to the Manager/Supervisor at the Mid Rivers Mall in St Peters and he was very upset with the way Sears was going in regards to there tool line. He wasnt some dumby sales clerk, He walked right to the Line wrenches and showed me there new COO and then proceded to walk over to where they kept there OLd USA Pro Line Wrenches and said he had been pushing customers into buying them instead. When i asked him about the Pro line he said "They are COMING"
Cummins_Powered
Well-known member
Im in agreement with you hiball. I talked to a manager today at sears in Santa Barbara, CA and he told me, with a very discouraged look, that EVERYTHING will be going overseas. He specifically mentioned sockets and ratchets too.
Looks like my craftsman tool purchases are at an end....sad sad day.
I too am no longer making Craftsman tool purchases. I've spent $3,532.98 (I added up all of my receipts) on made in the USA Crafstman tools in the last 5 months. I am the ultimate demographic/customer that SEARS/CRAFTSMAN should be going after. I'm middle aged, I have a nice disposable income and I'm educated. Apparently Craftsman doesn't give a rats patooty about what I want, and instead is making the decision for me. So, I'll switch tool brands. Snap On and Armstrong are my first two choices. Armstrong is still pretty much USA made, right? Danaher hasn't shut the factory down that makes those wrenches, ratchets and other chrome plated goodies, right?
Is that where off-center broaches on the box-ends come from? Because the skilled worker didn't get it properly centered before the operation?
MrMark
Well-known member
Local Sears for me is all Chinese now. The quality of the chroming is pitiful. They look like junk, it's sad. I bought the 13 piece set in Santa Monica when they first came out for $99. They are still 99, 20 years later. That is their problem, the failure to raise prices. But, they probably couldn't raise prices and be competitive because of the overseas competition and the average consumer just looking for a price and not willing to pay a premium for domestic manufacturing. It's a complicated situation but it really all boils down to people in third world countries willing to work for nothing and American consumers and corporations taking advantage of that opportunity at the expense of domestic manufacturing.
Armstrong is the way to go for those who bought Craftsman before. It's more money but the quality is way higher. The problem with Armstrong is its poor distribution and the assinine decision to use Fastenal, of all places, to warranty their tools. I went in a Fastenal once and they had not one piece of Armstrong and were essentially incapable of performing any warranty operation. It's one of those things that you can only
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Ed_EOD
Well-known member
Bye Craftsman, you're never getting my money again. Also, don't forget about Wright Tools, another US made company.
impulse922
Well-known member
taiwan would have been one thing, but china is just horrific.
can't say i've bought any cman tools in the last 2 years though, but i can say i definitely dont plan on buying them in the future.
can't say i've bought any cman tools in the last 2 years though, but i can say i definitely dont plan on buying them in the future.
78Bird
Well-known member
Im researching and liking the Wright tools more and more as I read about them.
The prices arent too bad if you research some, and boy they look NICE.
I may finish the few gaps in my CM wrench set, just to be like that... Then I'll not touch them anymore.
The prices arent too bad if you research some, and boy they look NICE.
I may finish the few gaps in my CM wrench set, just to be like that... Then I'll not touch them anymore.
Ive been slowly moving away from craftsman for a few years now. About all I have left are sockets. My main reasoning has been quality. I plan on keeping my metric sockets as they are older and very good. My 3/8 shorts are all craftsman and are the stupid double stake pockets. I will be replacing those at some time as well. Its sad to see an American company move production overseas like this. I for one will not be buying any more Craftsman tools because of these two reasons.
I for one will not pay "Made in USA" tool prices without a specific need to. The "I only buy American argument" to me is pretty silly when one considers that most everything else the buy American crowd uses comes from a global economy. American made tools are just way to expensive for me to buy. If reasonably priced tools were still made here then I would consider purchasing them but I can almost always purchase tools that will do the same job for a fraction of the cost. Buying only American made tools isn't helping jobs stay here, it's only a useless drop in the bucket to the actual issue of the worlds economy. We are not an isolationist nation although I think it may often be better if we were. Everything is going global and I bet Snap-on also will somewhere down the road, maybe sooner then we think or some want.
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While i Agree with your statements 100%, I do believe Craftsman "Was" a Great option for US made tools at a very affordable price. When you considered the Price per piece on some of there Kits they rivaled any Harbor freight tool set and in some cases is actually cheaper. I dont think this thread was destined or intended to discuss "I only buy American" but more the transition of US made tools to Import without a change in price from Sears.
That's fine. There's HF for the cheap Chinese tools. Hell, Sears has had a number of lower cost lines (Evolve, Dunlap?, Companion, etc, etc) over the years. Snap-On is already global and makes Chinese tools for their Bluepoint and Williams lines. The problem, IMO, with the Craftsman (and especially the Craftsman Pro) stuff being made in China is that it's symptomatic of the quality being lowered. The quality of the USA made Craftsman stuff has already taken a dive. That we know, look at the ratchet tests. In this thread someone's already complained about the quality of the chrome on the Chinese CMan stuff. Maybe they're just holding the line cost wise, but somehow I doubt it. Priced out of the market or not, it's disappointing to see Sears' top-shelf stuff be cheapened like this.
impulse922
Well-known member
It's not so much about buying american to me, but supporting the companies that aren't selling out to china or india.
That is a VERY small LIST, Restassured.
shotgunfatcat
Well-known member
So with Craftsman, and I just saw Plomb
, as well as Mac, Matco, etc. leaving the good ol' US of A, do you think this is going to create higher prices for USA made tools? I mean more than they already are down the road.
, as well as Mac, Matco, etc. leaving the good ol' US of A, do you think this is going to create higher prices for USA made tools? I mean more than they already are down the road.
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Indy_500
Well-known member
So with Craftsman, and I just saw Plomb
either way we're all f*cked in the future
DARKSCOPE001
Well-known member
wow im really pissed now. I like my craftsman tools. If i take them back to sears when I break them and get handed a chinease piece of garbage. im going to ***** untill they get me my usa made tool. Its not what I initialy paid for so Im not going to accept a downgrade so that they can save a few pennies. This is pathetic. we have enough chinease tool companies why does sears need to soil the craftsman name by adding one more to the pile? Disgusting! im really pissed. I wish I had the money to buy my set all over again but I dont. but if i did It wold be built up with all snappy stuff
LATER
Sean Scott
LATER
Sean Scott
Chinease? Is that to say they'll make it easy for you to take it on the chin?
thesilverone
Well-known member
Stopped into 3 Sears in the last 2 days in Massachusetts and Rhode Island and the pro sets still were marked "made in USA" on them.
billymade
Well-known member
The pro wrenches are not fast sellers; its probably gonna take awhile for the old USA made wrenches, to get moved out of the floor stock...
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