Nice set !!
I look in catalogs from 1957(501) ,1968 and 1969 (502) ,cant find this set.
Any Stahlwille or Belzer Germany Fans ?
- Thread starter RichoTas
- Start date
I look in catalogs from 1957(501) ,1968 and 1969 (502) ,cant find this set.
Thank you very much for the welcome!
This one is metric, but I must admit that I have it also in SAE.
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Thank you. That's also my experience about this sets. Nowhere to find... The former owner told me he got it from an airline maintenance workshop. Maybe it was special purpose...?
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I found your set in a catalog from 1954.
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kerrynzl
Well-known member
I might be a bit late to the party here:
This was my dad's old Stahlwille socket set. He said he purchased it when he was 16 [he was born in 1934 which makes this set circa 1950]
I can't confirmed this date exactly now ..........because he kicked the bucket back in 2016.
And my uncle says 1950 should be "about right"
So if anybody knows by looking at them what vintage the are please chime in.[ I remember getting my *** spanked for playing with them 60 years ago]
Dad had a stroke back in 2013 so he asked me to hang on to all his old tools so the vultures wouldn't pick the eyes out of them.
They've been up in my garage ceiling crawl space since 2013 until now ,so I'll give them what they deserve [I'll use them]
This was my dad's old Stahlwille socket set. He said he purchased it when he was 16 [he was born in 1934 which makes this set circa 1950]
I can't confirmed this date exactly now ..........because he kicked the bucket back in 2016.
And my uncle says 1950 should be "about right"
So if anybody knows by looking at them what vintage the are please chime in.[ I remember getting my *** spanked for playing with them 60 years ago]
Dad had a stroke back in 2013 so he asked me to hang on to all his old tools so the vultures wouldn't pick the eyes out of them.
They've been up in my garage ceiling crawl space since 2013 until now ,so I'll give them what they deserve [I'll use them]
kerrynzl
Well-known member
Dad also had these Stahlwille 1/4 drive sockets in an old Tobacco tin [not a full set]
The socket tray contains a full set of S-K metric 3/8 drive sockets
Probably of a lot later vintage
The socket tray contains a full set of S-K metric 3/8 drive sockets
Probably of a lot later vintage
I don’t doubt the dates, a Catalog image of a 1955 set is attached.
Comparing the two I suspect a set of 10 Whitworth sockets has been added and maybe the few hex drivers have been removed.
The early deep sockets were all drilled for a bar to assist.
The standard sockets were all longer back then, this is especially so with the 1/4 drive ones you show.
The BA set should run 11 sizes 0, 1 thru 10. What are the others?
Where was your father working when he obtained this treasure?
It would have taken a huge commitment to purchase this set.
Comparing the two I suspect a set of 10 Whitworth sockets has been added and maybe the few hex drivers have been removed.
The early deep sockets were all drilled for a bar to assist.
The standard sockets were all longer back then, this is especially so with the 1/4 drive ones you show.
The BA set should run 11 sizes 0, 1 thru 10. What are the others?
Where was your father working when he obtained this treasure?
It would have taken a huge commitment to purchase this set.
kerrynzl
Well-known member
I don’t doubt the dates, a Catalog image of a 1955 set is attached.
Comparing the two I suspect a set of 10 Whitworth sockets has been added and maybe the few hex drivers have been removed.
The early deep sockets were all drilled for a bar to assist.
The standard sockets were all longer back then, this is especially so with the 1/4 drive ones you show.
The BA set should run 11 sizes 0, 1 thru 10. What are the others?
Where was your father working when he obtained this treasure?
It would have taken a huge commitment to purchase this set.
My father was the oldest son working on the family farm.
My grandfather was a very wealthy farmer back then [I believe he was a wartime profiteer]
After WW2 during rationing times, you needed overseas funds to buy these types of imported goods.
My grandfather always had a stable of New American cars when most cars in NZ were British [being a British commonwealth country]
I believe most of his overseas funds came from supplying the US Army
Back then the most common tools in NZ were the Aussie brand "Sidchrome" [these old sets are highly desirable now]
Dave455
Well-known member
What a superb set.I might be a bit late to the party here:
This was my dad's old Stahlwille socket set. He said he purchased it when he was 16 [he was born in 1934 which makes this set circa 1950]
I can't confirmed this date exactly now ..........because he kicked the bucket back in 2016.
And my uncle says 1950 should be "about right"
So if anybody knows by looking at them what vintage the are please chime in.[ I remember getting my *** spanked for playing with them 60 years ago]
Dad had a stroke back in 2013 so he asked me to hang on to all his old tools so the vultures wouldn't pick the eyes out of them.
They've been up in my garage ceiling crawl space since 2013 until now ,so I'll give them what they deserve [I'll use them]
The things I treasure most of my Fathers, are the things he valued. For the most part these are this tools.
It sounds as though your Dad was from the same era, and his tools meant a lot to him, perhaps because they were such an investment at the time. Glad you kept them from the vultures…!
I’m not a great expert on vintage Stahlwille, but looking at the colour of the box, the steel insert, and the style of the tools, I think you are about right on the date.
One of the things I like about Stahlwille, is that most of the tools haven’t really changed in style over the years. You could add a set of modern sockets to what you have, and they wouldn’t look out of place.
Nice set! My brother and I both have one of my grandfathers socket sets. Mine is just pre-WWII, and it always makes me smile to use it, and remember gramps. My brothers is maybe ‘50’s but much more suited for regular use. There’s not many things that can be left as heirlooms that are more durable with time than tools.
I don’t know much about Stahlwille, but I suspect that the Made in Germany markings are also consistent with circa 1950. Early postwar they were still figuring out what the borders and government would be. Much after 1950 and it would probably be marked W. Germany.
I don’t know much about Stahlwille, but I suspect that the Made in Germany markings are also consistent with circa 1950. Early postwar they were still figuring out what the borders and government would be. Much after 1950 and it would probably be marked W. Germany.
Stubby1743
Well-known member
Here is an Elora DOE that I have. It is a bit unusual as it has "Made in Germany" forged on one side and also "Foreign" stamped on the other. Does this mean that it was made between the wars?
Orangina
Well-known member
The inscription "FOREIGN" was in history for export from Germany to Great Britain before "Made in Germany" was used.
(actually meant to be derogatory and necessary for Great Britain due to the "Merchandise Marks Act" from 1887 to ~ 1926,
from which the opposite rather than almost a seal of quality "Made in Germany" emerged)
BTW: the Stahlwille/Belzer/Elora/Gedore/... fan community in Germany is very small or non-existent.
They have all built good and beautiful tools, tool trolleys and cabinets in the past and some today.
I've been trying to sell an old Stahlwille manoscope 72/12 (torque wrench from the 1970s) for half a year without success. Soon I'll just throw it away... that's sad. Similar ones (also made by Stahlwille!!!) with a HAZET sign are sold for 10 times as much within a few hours.
Things are different at HAZET with fans, even if everything is no longer weighed in gold like it was a few years ago and many are clearly disappointed with some products from Asia and the good reputation is (partly wrong) already ruined. But the old tools of the 50s to 80s for VW/Porsche/Mercedes are still valued - but invisible and unknown to generations to come.
regards,
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Dave455
Well-known member
Although these are not vintage, I’ve just been cleaning up my 1/4” Drive Stahlwille tools.
Nice tools. I think the Stahlwille 1/4” drive is a bit under rated.
I much prefer all metal handles to comfort grips. I use these tools a fair bit for automotive work and small engine servicing, and with a wipe down they look near new.
The finish on the Stahlwille tools never looks impressive “out of the box”, but it’s very durable to use, and perhaps even polishes slightly with use.
The bit ratchet is an exceptionally nice tool.
The one piece hex bits are a newish acquisition. I’m moving away from bit holders now, even in 1/4” drive.
Nice tools. I think the Stahlwille 1/4” drive is a bit under rated.
I much prefer all metal handles to comfort grips. I use these tools a fair bit for automotive work and small engine servicing, and with a wipe down they look near new.
The finish on the Stahlwille tools never looks impressive “out of the box”, but it’s very durable to use, and perhaps even polishes slightly with use.
The bit ratchet is an exceptionally nice tool.
The one piece hex bits are a newish acquisition. I’m moving away from bit holders now, even in 1/4” drive.
I will have Belzer ratchets to show off and also Heyco, Rahsol (see my avatar), Dowidat, Elora and a delicious little brand new VBW ratchet set from the late 70s/early 80s aside some old Hazet. I live in France and I have some old Lauravia, SAM and Eternum sets. I also have old Snap-On and Jo-Line and a Bethleem rachet set from the 20's with exagon drive...
Welcome tor the site and many of us will await you showing off tool sets that have not been shown on this site.
If known, please try to indicate ages of the sets.
As Stahlwille bought VBW, I feel free to put pictures of my little red VBW still brand new although dating between 1974 and 1989 hence the made in W Germany stamped on the tools. The ratchet is "push thru" like on many sets from Germany. The Lauravia "French Army" 3/8 short model looks like a giant next to the VBW box!
PS: this VBW set is in inches and was mine for 10€ six months ago.
PS: this VBW set is in inches and was mine for 10€ six months ago.
3baygarage
Well-known member
Very nice. I've collected a few French ratchets and I think one is a non-chrome version of that.
The Lauravia 3/8 is also brand new and I paid the princely sum of €8 for it. 
As Lauravia merged with SAM in 1970 and disappeared in the late 70s, it can be considered a vintage tool... I'll post some better pics showing the army marking on the appropriate thread.
As Lauravia merged with SAM in 1970 and disappeared in the late 70s, it can be considered a vintage tool... I'll post some better pics showing the army marking on the appropriate thread.
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Let's see something a bit bigger an early 90's Heyco 1/2 set used but still in good usable condition:
Remember that Heyco is the official supplier of on-board tools for BMWs just as Dowidat was the official supplier for Mercedes-Benz...
Remember that Heyco is the official supplier of on-board tools for BMWs just as Dowidat was the official supplier for Mercedes-Benz...
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Ratchet.
Well-known member
Had missed this thrad as not been on here regularly, Belzer is probably my favorite german tool manufacturer, closely followed by Hazet and Stahlwille, shame that Belzer ceased to exist
I have a small collection of all three,
Belzer stuff tends to command high prices in the uk even if it is a lesser known brand, metric sizes in particular are sought after (as with a lot of older tools in the uk, there is seemingly unlimited amounts of whitworth and AF around, as seems it was imported and produced in large amounts even after metric was the norm....)
The first Belzer tools i aquired are some Belzer-Sandvik 10 and 13mm wrenches which I found new old stock, they are later production but the chrome and finish is perfection, and Belzer has been a saved search of mine on ebay and the like since then....
most of my tools are at my work so dont have them to hand to photograph, but got these wrenches, and this nice 1/2 drive set in its box, sadly missing some sockets and the extension which i havent managed to track down replacments for yet, i had the 17mm socket, but its a bi hex version rather then the original hex, also the original lever is missing of the ratchet, the home made one works ok, but is nt very well held on,originally the lever is riveted, will likely make another more like the original, using the 3/8 version of this ratchet i have as a pattern
I also have these ITMA wrenches, which i only recently found out (via this forum) were a budget brand belonging to Belzer,
Note the 'finished in the uk' stamping on two of them. not sure what the story is with that, finish on them is not as good as the regular belzer stuff, but ok, its closer to the finish on the liliput wrenches,
I do miss when euro tool companies made budget lines under another name, but often made in their own factory, just to lesser quality, rather than contract made taiwanese tools (not that those are in any way bad these days,)
Will get pics of my other stuff soon if anyone is interested,
I have a small collection of all three,
Belzer stuff tends to command high prices in the uk even if it is a lesser known brand, metric sizes in particular are sought after (as with a lot of older tools in the uk, there is seemingly unlimited amounts of whitworth and AF around, as seems it was imported and produced in large amounts even after metric was the norm....)
The first Belzer tools i aquired are some Belzer-Sandvik 10 and 13mm wrenches which I found new old stock, they are later production but the chrome and finish is perfection, and Belzer has been a saved search of mine on ebay and the like since then....
most of my tools are at my work so dont have them to hand to photograph, but got these wrenches, and this nice 1/2 drive set in its box, sadly missing some sockets and the extension which i havent managed to track down replacments for yet, i had the 17mm socket, but its a bi hex version rather then the original hex, also the original lever is missing of the ratchet, the home made one works ok, but is nt very well held on,originally the lever is riveted, will likely make another more like the original, using the 3/8 version of this ratchet i have as a pattern
I also have these ITMA wrenches, which i only recently found out (via this forum) were a budget brand belonging to Belzer,
Note the 'finished in the uk' stamping on two of them. not sure what the story is with that, finish on them is not as good as the regular belzer stuff, but ok, its closer to the finish on the liliput wrenches,
I do miss when euro tool companies made budget lines under another name, but often made in their own factory, just to lesser quality, rather than contract made taiwanese tools (not that those are in any way bad these days,)
Will get pics of my other stuff soon if anyone is interested,
Stubby1743
Well-known member
Here are some imperial Gedore spanners that I have. They are interesting in the way that the country of origin is dealt with as time progressed.
The top two very nicely made Whitworth double ring/box spanners are stamped "FOREIGN" after forging.
The middle Whitworth DOE spanner is marked "FOREIGN" as part of the forging. Unusually, it is marked with its sizes on both sides.
The last two DOEs are proudly marked "MADE IN GERMANY" as part of the forging.
The top two very nicely made Whitworth double ring/box spanners are stamped "FOREIGN" after forging.
The middle Whitworth DOE spanner is marked "FOREIGN" as part of the forging. Unusually, it is marked with its sizes on both sides.
The last two DOEs are proudly marked "MADE IN GERMANY" as part of the forging.
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Orangina
Well-known member
will then be from the period around 1991 and 1999...
1884-1974 Belzer
1974-1988 merger to DWU (Belzer + Dowidat => "Deutsche Werkzeug-Union" = German Tool Union)
1988-1991 DWU acquisition by Bahco and Sandvik
1991-1999 Sandvik-Belzer
1997 Almost all production ends in Germany from now on moved to Argentina (last screwdrivers from 2004 to Spain)
1999 Acquisition by Snap-on
2005 transform of Bahco etc. to SNA Europe Group
ITMA-BELZER is better known from Brazil - a connection with Belzer there to the 1990s, but not well known in Germany.
But listed as "ITMA Germany" at the end of the Belzer catalog 500 in 1957 with some products at 20 pages.
There is no explanation in the catalog why and who ITMA is. There is evidence of a cheap brand from the 1960s-1980s.
Later acquisition of ITMA Brazil by Apex Tools.
regards,
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Ratchet.
Well-known member
I find the Foreign marking interesting, was on a lot of older tools i saw around when i was a kid, and never paid much attention then but seems the a good portion, at least in the UK were of german manufacture.Here some imperial Gedore spanners that I have. They are interesting in the way that the country of origin is dealt with as time progressed.
The top two very nicely made Whitworth double ring/box spanners are stamped "FOREIGN" after forging.
The middle Whitworth DOE spanner is marked "FOREIGN" as part of the forging. Unusually, it is marked with its sizes on both sides.
The last two DOEs are proudly marked "MADE IN GERMANY" as part of the forging.
My theory is that it was to try and distance themselves from the country in the aftermath of ww2, why they didnt just leave it blank im not sure, maybe some law at the time that required it to be indicated they were of non domestic manufacture.
As a kid that didnt know much, the marking seemed to indicate lesser quality, though in hindsight that is wrong in many cases, though as the ones i had with those markings were older more crudely manufactured tools i had been given, it makes a little bit of sense.
Orangina
Well-known member
I've explained it some postings before:
The inscription "FOREIGN" was in history for export from Germany to Great Britain before "Made in Germany" was used.
(actually meant to be derogatory and necessary for Great Britain due to the "Merchandise Marks Act" from 1887 to ~ 1926,
from which the opposite rather than almost a seal of quality "Made in Germany" emerged)
Ratchet.
Well-known member
I had missed that post, makes sense, i definitely got the impression it was meant to make the items seem inferior, quality and.. it seemed to work, glad it eventually went by the wayside.
its a shame that corporations have now mudded the waters by using "Germany" on packaging etc now irregardless where the tool is made but. thats a whole other argument
Some more of my Belzer tools below, the broken bolt extractor is a tool a collegue of mine when i was an apprentice had, and i found very useful, i didnt know about the make etc just remebered the blue box it was in
recently found this almost complete set on ebay, couple of the fluted extractors were missing so subsituted with Ridgid tools parts, in absense of original replacements, the smallest one is slightly different, but the others are directly interchangable which is kind of interesting..
some crow foot wrenches of various drive size, and a 3/8 drive 7750 ratchet,
thes ratchets command really strong money in the uk for some reason, usually £60-100, i got this for far less however
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Stubby1743
Well-known member
I picked up a few older German tools at my local small car boot sale this week end.
The SOE Dowidat looks to be unused.
The second spanner down is just marked on the other side with "Special - Steel" and "West Germany". It looks similar to a Stahlwille spanner.
Third down is a Whitworth 1/8x3/32 Hazet DOE. Unfortunately, it has been stamped with AL on the back and the 3/32 end has been thinned a bit.
The nice Elora No.156 at the bottom is 15/64x7/32 which I guess is a bit unusual.
The SOE Dowidat looks to be unused.
The second spanner down is just marked on the other side with "Special - Steel" and "West Germany". It looks similar to a Stahlwille spanner.
Third down is a Whitworth 1/8x3/32 Hazet DOE. Unfortunately, it has been stamped with AL on the back and the 3/32 end has been thinned a bit.
The nice Elora No.156 at the bottom is 15/64x7/32 which I guess is a bit unusual.
I have, among half a dozen torque wrenches, this Dowidat C19E from the 50s/60s of the flick 'n' click type. It is a clone of the French FACOM S203 (or is the FACOM a clone of the Dowidat?) so much so that the ratchet and the key clip are exactly the same and are interchangeable. The torsion spring being broken, I ordered a repair kit from FACOM, everything was well assembled but the torsion spring which turns the bar 90° was just 5 mm too short. I'll make one this weekend with piano wire, if SWMBO gives me some free time...
What is strange is that the key itself is marked neither Made in Germany nor Made in France if there has been an agreement between the companies, only the ratchet is marked made in Germany.
What is strange is that the key itself is marked neither Made in Germany nor Made in France if there has been an agreement between the companies, only the ratchet is marked made in Germany.
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Here is a complete ELORA set, recently purchased in very good condition, it will do with a little cleaning. These are the kind of tools I wish I had in my youth when I pissed the neighborhood with my Ariels, Panther and Vincent motorcycles!
Most of the sockets are new or have had little use except those corresponding to certain metric dimensions (5/16; 7/16; 1/2; 3/4; 7/16 W) and the ratchet is simply new: it was said that it was broken but was just stuck in by old solidified grease. A little dip in brake cleaner fluid loosened it up and being well greased it's a pleasure to use!
Most of the sockets are new or have had little use except those corresponding to certain metric dimensions (5/16; 7/16; 1/2; 3/4; 7/16 W) and the ratchet is simply new: it was said that it was broken but was just stuck in by old solidified grease. A little dip in brake cleaner fluid loosened it up and being well greased it's a pleasure to use!
What a treasure! I'd gently clean the box and keep it in the living room to be admired regularly. Makes me sad we no longer put these artsy features in the things we make today.Here is a complete ELORA set, recently purchased in very good condition, it will do with a little cleaning. These are the kind of tools I wish I had in my youth when I pissed the neighborhood with my Ariels, Panther and Vincent motorcycles!
Most of the sockets are new or have had little use except those corresponding to certain metric dimensions (5/16; 7/16; 1/2; 3/4; 7/16 W) and the ratchet is simply new: it was said that it was broken but was just stuck in by old solidified grease. A little dip in brake cleaner fluid loosened it up and being well greased it's a pleasure to use!
One of my german vintage ratchets with a 1/2" attachement
My 1968 Elora N°770/L/1/U "American Line" wich is perfect inside but shows some evident signs of use
A pretty big baby since it weighs 640 grams, or about 1.41 pounds, which is not the lightest ratchet in the world. Do you remember those pretty waitresses in dirndls at the Oktober party? Know their secret: they work all year round with such a ratchet!
My 1968 Elora N°770/L/1/U "American Line" wich is perfect inside but shows some evident signs of use
A pretty big baby since it weighs 640 grams, or about 1.41 pounds, which is not the lightest ratchet in the world. Do you remember those pretty waitresses in dirndls at the Oktober party? Know their secret: they work all year round with such a ratchet!
My almost complete 1/2 Elora metric "American Line" set from the late 60's (1968 in fact). The inner case is made of fairly solid plastic (the 11mm and 18mm sockets are missing which is odd because they are not generally used in Europe although the 11mm socket can be replaced by a 7/16 AF while the 18mm is perfect for 3/8 BSW-7/16 BSF...)In the photo the missing socket 11 has been replaced by a vintage Facom socket) As usual click on the photos to enlarge them:
And two of my DOWIDAT 1/2 ratchets; the green handled one has been my most used ratchet for years but now, as I've said elsewhere, I'm going to upgrade to the lighter 3/8.
The 993 with the push thru system and bare metal handle was never my favorite, while the sturdy 1993 R definitely was. Note that they were both produced at the same period (late 70s vs early 80s)
And two of my DOWIDAT 1/2 ratchets; the green handled one has been my most used ratchet for years but now, as I've said elsewhere, I'm going to upgrade to the lighter 3/8.
The 993 with the push thru system and bare metal handle was never my favorite, while the sturdy 1993 R definitely was. Note that they were both produced at the same period (late 70s vs early 80s)
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kerrynzl
Well-known member
I just picked these lil' gems up yesterday!
The 13/16" long socket in my dad's old set [post #86] had a hairline crack in it, So I had been scouting around garage sales etc
And I lucked onto these [the same vintage]
I'll also use the extra 1" long socket in my Race car tool box [I needed a 1" long/deep for the race car lug nuts ]
I hated splitting my tool set whenever I went racing.
The 13/16" long socket in my dad's old set [post #86] had a hairline crack in it, So I had been scouting around garage sales etc
And I lucked onto these [the same vintage]
I'll also use the extra 1" long socket in my Race car tool box [I needed a 1" long/deep for the race car lug nuts ]
I hated splitting my tool set whenever I went racing.
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My GEDORE 3/8 metric socket set from the late 60s/early 70s with its "American Line" style ratchet. Interestingly and quite cleverly, GEDORE decided that sockets up to 10mm had to be 6-pointed while larger ones could get by with 12-pointed. The set is in very good condition and some sockets have never been used.
The 3/8 ratchet seems really puny next to the big 650 gram Elora 1/2 ratchet!
The 3/8 ratchet seems really puny next to the big 650 gram Elora 1/2 ratchet!
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This gem was for sale today as it is, full of tools (only €500 a little less than $550) but SWMBO said "NO" because it had to be picked up 850 miles from home. And sure enough, it sold out within minutes before I could arrange with a shipping company to collect it for me! Bring some tissues before looking at the photos!
I think I'm going to go curl up in the doghouse and cry...
I think I'm going to go curl up in the doghouse and cry...
Dave455
Well-known member
Oh my god - what an opportunity!This gem was for sale today as it is, full of tools (only €500 a little less than $550) but SWMBO said "NO" because it had to be picked up 850 miles from home. And sure enough, it sold out within minutes before I could arrange with a shipping company to collect it for me! Bring some tissues before looking at the photos!
I think I'm going to go curl up in the doghouse and cry...
I will cry for you…!