danski0224
Well-known member
Yeah, you're probably right.
HVAC Guys update 9/21 WTH ???
- Thread starter mikester
- Start date
Not sure if this is going to be the perfect outcome but the company sent two guys over to my house today. One experienced mechanic and the foreman. They looked at the issues. VERY understanding and sympathetic to what we've been going through. An hour after they left I got a call from the company. Theyre replacing the air handler. Instead of an ADP unit theyre putting in a Trane. Model GAM5. Dont know much about the unit. As long as I dont have to deal with anymore BS its a good thing. Hoping this is going to end well.
Same here, recently added a Accutrak ultrasonic leak detector to my kit because the authorized Daikin tech wanted to do a gas and go instead of looking for a leak.
No! You don't tape the access panels shut! I have seen guys do that and the first time the unit needs to be serviced all the tape gets cut off and ripped up, never to be tapped up again. If installed properly the panels will be tight enough, unless you bought some bottom of the barrel unit. If an installer did that to my new unit I would be pissed.To me, this is how an air handler should be sealed. Can't see it in the pic, but the horizontal door lengths are taped also.
I honestly wouldn't have a unit in an attic. I was in the trade for years and the attic installs are usually the least maintained, poorly installed pieces of equipment out there. This unit is heating and cooling your home, why not show it a tiny bit of respect and put it where it can be installed and services correctly? I would have refused the job in my business. Yes I know it must be great to throw away work. This isn't work, it's an ongoing problem that will never go away and you couldn't pay me enough to deal with that.
SVibs
Well-known member
I own a property in the US northeast and another in the US southeast (winters in the northeast ****). In the northeast it's common to have a furnace in the basement with ductwork that serves multiple floors. In the southeast, crawlspaces are common and furnaces are generally installed in the garage and serve the 1st floor only (with duckwork run in the crawlspace) and there's no ductwork between floors. So it's pretty common to have a heat pump serve the upper floor and have the air handlers in the attic for ducting reasons. It's not ideal, but assuming you're purchasing an existing home, there generally isn't much of a choice.
100% agree. Besides the service issues the unit and the duct are not insulated or sealed nearly as well as the rest of a building. Don't see any homes getting r8 insulation.
My house is 123 years old. Small. We needed more living space so we wound up turning the attic into living space. The front room is 12.5 x 28, theres a small area in the middle where theres a closet and a bookcase and in the back theres a regular bathroom with a walk in shower. A single window on each end and two large skylights. In a perfect world we would have added a full second floor but back in the late 60s (we've owned it since '82) the house was jacked up and a full block basement was added. The way the main floor joists and supports were done wouldnt support a full second story. At that point we had to work with what we had.
That being said, we framed the knee walls, added closets and finished it off. It was my sons living space from 2000 until he got married. Now its my daughters.
We put the air handler where it is because there was no other option. It was behind the knee wall with an access door for 22 years without a single issue. Last September the drain line backed up and we had a water leak. The only reason we replaced the unit was the fact its now 23 years old. The guy that fixed the drain line was the guy that originally installed it. He said due to the age and the fact it also has the coil for heat it would be a good idea to put a new unit in before theres a bigger issue.
The feed lines for hot water and the lines from the condenser come up in an interior wall chase. The lines are all insulated. The knee walls are insulated, the rafters are baffled and insulated. Couldnt do much more. Its survived hot NY Summers and cold NY Winters for 23 years.
cvairwerks
Well-known member
Mike: Something that should be considered when the unit gets changed out up there, is to add a second, separate overflow drain to the pan. After the first time the pan overflowed in my parents house, a second drain was added. No more problems until the mechanical guys replacing the water heaters next to the air handler managed to break off the second drain line when they dropped one of the old water heaters. They didn't catch that they broke it and we didn't have another flood til about 5 years later.
BTW...was funny to see them toss the old water heaters out of the roof framing like cabers.... It was the only way to get them out without anyone getting hurt....
BTW...was funny to see them toss the old water heaters out of the roof framing like cabers.... It was the only way to get them out without anyone getting hurt....
So it never seems to end.
In the process of raising the return for the air handler I noticed that some of the insulation that was damaged is in the area of the old hip roof rafters that were left in when the rear addition was added back in the 70s. When I installed the baffles and insulation during the first renovation that area was a huge pain in the **** since the insulation was cut in odd angles to fit. It took quite a few hours to do.
Yesterday I stopped by the HVAC company to see if they would be willing to pull the unit out on Monday AM, give me a day or two to fix the damaged insulation and come back to put the new unit back in when they had the time.
The manager said no good. Their plan is to put bubble wrap insulation over all the rafters front to back on that side of the house. Yup, cover all the R-19 and staple it to each rafter from top to bottom. The manager told me the bubble wrap has more of an R value than the R 19. Pretty sure bubble wrap is like R 4 ? Unless he meant its better than the original vapor barrier.
Does this sound reasonable ? Never heard of anyone doing this. It seems like they want to get in, get out and this will be the quickest option for them. My feeling, my house, they screwed it up, I want it the way it was. Opinions ???
In the process of raising the return for the air handler I noticed that some of the insulation that was damaged is in the area of the old hip roof rafters that were left in when the rear addition was added back in the 70s. When I installed the baffles and insulation during the first renovation that area was a huge pain in the **** since the insulation was cut in odd angles to fit. It took quite a few hours to do.
Yesterday I stopped by the HVAC company to see if they would be willing to pull the unit out on Monday AM, give me a day or two to fix the damaged insulation and come back to put the new unit back in when they had the time.
The manager said no good. Their plan is to put bubble wrap insulation over all the rafters front to back on that side of the house. Yup, cover all the R-19 and staple it to each rafter from top to bottom. The manager told me the bubble wrap has more of an R value than the R 19. Pretty sure bubble wrap is like R 4 ? Unless he meant its better than the original vapor barrier.
Does this sound reasonable ? Never heard of anyone doing this. It seems like they want to get in, get out and this will be the quickest option for them. My feeling, my house, they screwed it up, I want it the way it was. Opinions ???
I wouldn't pull the unit for this. From the pictures only the paper facing is damaged. You just need to fix the vapor barrier. I doubt I would use bubble wrap myself.
My feeling here is that the torn paper is almost expected. The only screw up is they didn't just fix it right away
bluedog225
Well-known member
At this point either pull the entire deal and get a full refund. Then go find someone else.
Or let them replace the whole deal and consider you came out ok.
A little torn paper wouldn’t bother me much. But I’m not up in the cold country.
Or let them replace the whole deal and consider you came out ok.
A little torn paper wouldn’t bother me much. But I’m not up in the cold country.
SVibs
Well-known member
I assume they're doing this to fix the paper vapor barrier they tore up during the install and not for some other reason related to your original problem? If that's the case you'll get an additional R4 of insulation on their dime. If you can live with seeing the rips through the bubble wrap it may be worth it.
Last edited:
You need to read this post from the beginning. Theres been nothing but problems with the air handler since they installed it almost 4 months ago. Theyre pulling the the ADP handler they installed and replacing it with a Trane unit on Monday.
The ripped insulation was done by their installers. The old unit was there for 23 years. Problem is their guys are hacks. Im going there this morning to tell them I dont want the bubble wrap put in.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
While I understand your frustration with the company your set up is terrible to work with. I hate even having to inspect those units as they are royal PITA.
I believe your beef about the insulation is going way too far. Let it go. Calm down and move on.
Iv
The insulation issue is going to happen more often than not in a space like this. It's just the way it is when equipment is in a cramped space like this. Old kraft paper is very brittle. Yes it needs to be fixed.
I've read it. I won't comment on those problems, seems like these guys are just installers and have zero trouble shooting ability.
The insulation issue is going to happen more often than not in a space like this. It's just the way it is when equipment is in a cramped space like this. Old kraft paper is very brittle. Yes it needs to be fixed.
I just got back from their office. Told the manager I didnt want the bubble wrap. He went on telling me how its going to increase the R value. I looked it up. 1/4" wrap has a 1.1 R value at the most. Told him instead of having his guys crawl back and forth stapling the bubble wrap up all through the crawl space just have them replace the R19 in the 3 rafter bays.
He also started ranting about how theyre doing everything they can to make this right. My feeling ? If they did the job right the first time they were here none of this BS would be happening. He told me if they still had my old unit they would put it back and refund my money. At this point I wish they would just do that and let me get another company to do the job. He also told me the new unit is going to be a 230 instead of a 110. Ive got one empty spot left in my panel. Called my buddy that put the service in to make sure it will work. He hasnt returned the call yet. Hopefully this wont open another can of worms.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
They didn’t compromise the insulation just the vapor barrier of it. I am not a fan of reflective bubble wrap insulation because as you note it really isn’t insulation
But it is a vapor barrier, which is what’s damaged. If applied over the existing insulation it restores the vapor barrier.
But it is a vapor barrier, which is what’s damaged. If applied over the existing insulation it restores the vapor barrier.
racecougar
Well-known member
Agreed with those above. Asking the HVAC company to replace the R-19 insulation is out of line. Let them place a vapor barrier over it and move on. Same story with the request that they pull the unit one day and install on another. They are obviously going to rather expensive lengths to provide you with a working system. Don't make it harder for them to do so.
Im having them replace the unit because theyve been here 6 times in less than 4 months to fix it. This was a $10K bill for basically replacing an existing air handler and condenser. Ducts, electric, lines were already in place. The 4 month old unit has rust all over the inside of the housing, bend in the cover due to careless mechanics slamming it together, stripped screw holes and soaking wet inside insulation. Even the manufacturer told me theres an issue. Most likely from the install or when they took it apart to change the air flow. The original unit was there for 23 years. Clean install and no problems for the first 22 years. The torn vapor barrier was just an added complaint about sloppy workmanship that they did. Especially since it was me that put that insulation up during the first renovation. First install didnt tear anything.
My question for all the folks insinuating I should be less of a ball breaker. If you went to an appliance store and bought a new fridge for $5K and had to have the companies repairmen at your house 6 times in 3 months would you expect the company to replace it at that point or would you be happy to have them keep trying to repair it ? I asked the foremen that same question the last time they were here. Three hours later they called to say they were putting in a new unit.
This is a local company around the block from my house. If the trees werent on the north side of my property I could actually see their shop. I even went to school with the owners brother in law. Its a small town. Do the right thing. The original installer and a helper put the whole system in and they were finished in one day. These guys were done in less than 2 1/2 hrs and sat in their trucks outside my house for at least 4 more hrs. My feeling ? If you have that much time to sit and BS the job should look like a work of art before you walk out of the house.
danski0224
Well-known member
Hack Job.
Hopefully they get it right this time.
"We do it nice, cuz we do it twice".
They should at least have had the decency to go sit somewhere else.
racecougar
Well-known member
I don’t believe anyone said that they disagree with having the system replaced. It’s the other asks mentioned above that are out of line.
Lets go with a different scenario. One involving you. You take your car into a shop for a new transmission. $5K. Transmission doesnt shift right two days after you pick it up. You take it back 6 times before the shop finally says they'll replace it. While they have it in the shop one of the guys gets into the car with a screwdriver in his pocket and slices the leather drivers seat wide open in 3 places. What do you do ? Thank them for replacing the transmission that was faulty but you paid for ? Do you expect them to fix that drivers seat that their guy cut in multiple places being careless ? Somehow I dont think you would let that go.
I agree on principle.
I'd probably let the insulation go if everything else went butter smooth from get go but with this fiasco I wouldn't let anything slide.
How about if it's a 30 year old seat and the hard leather splits because the guy just hopped in with nothing in his pocket.
Now what do you do? Sure the mechanic caused it but would you really expect a new seat?
racecougar
Well-known member
You lost me at "take your car into a shop", but I'll play along for your sake. I'd be completely fine with the shop replacing the seat cover rather than the entire seat. Kind of like replacing the vapor barrier in your real life scenario vs replacing the insulation. I'd also let them replace the transmission in one go, rather than asking them to drop the transmission, let me have the car for a day, then put the new one in. Does that translate for you?
lzenglish
Well-known member
Hello Mikester, Your Scenario plays out every day, to most everyone i know, and you have every right to expect proper services for your money. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and if all the naysayers who i suspect are the culprits, or just want to argue, and take it in the south side dry, so be it. You are in the right, so stop feeling guilty, and don't forget to contact the Better Business Bureau on this TURD that tried to rack up another "Half Assed Install" sale.
Take Care,
LZ,....... 45 Years in the HVAC/R field, College Trained in 1973
Last edited:
Im hoping you guys realize that all they have to replace is 3 lengths of insulation that are about 8' or 9' long and 23" wide. Not like Im asking them to reinsulate the whole attic behind the knee wall. I already have the bundle of insulation out in my garage. Im pretty sure this is a 15-20 minute job at the most. Probably a quarter of the time it would take for two guys to belly crawl and staple multiple runs of bubble wrap from the front to the rear of of the whole space. The only reason I cant replace it myself is the unit is tight up against the rafters.
This whole deal with this company has been a pain in the *** from the day they installed it. I went down to my basement the next day and found a puddle of water next to my 15 year old Biasi boiler. Right under the first of three drain valves. I know they had to drain the upstairs line due to the fact its also heat. Called the manager. He comes over and tells me the valve thats leaking is for the main floor. His guy would never have opened it. So, its just a crazy coincidence that the valve right next to it is leaking after 15 years ????? Yeah, right.
So he asks me if I have a wrench so he could tighten the packing. As hes doing it the thing starts leaking even more. The valves soldered in. I stick a pan under it. He leaves and comes back with a brass screw on cap. Tightens the piss out of it and thats his fix for something they obviously did. No f'n way do I believe they didnt open that valve first.
Im hoping they take a little more care when they put the new unit in. Because of the storm we're having theyre coming on Tuesday AM instead of Monday. Time will tell.
6
Our white vapor barrier sealing tape is pressure-activated and does require firm pressure to adhere well and can take 3-4 days. Shop online!
bluetexinsulation.com
Honestly surprised they didn't just slap some foil tape over it and call it good. Their bubble barrier is a fix/improvement.
If you insist on them replacing the Batts, next will be an update about how you would have done it differently.
racecougar
Well-known member
No joke.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
Well said, and would want the doors removed for a day while he replaced the seat and reinstalled the next day..
Yes, we hvac techs invented a time machine, went back in time years ago and joined this forum, and posted thousands of posts in anticipation of this customer coming here so we could tell him he is being unreasonable about the 20 plus year old vapor barrier! You caught us!
danski0224
Well-known member
While you guys were doing that, I put $100k in Bitcoin when it was less than 5 cents and sold at $75k...
While you guys were doing that, I put $100k in Bitcoin when it was less than 5 cents and sold at $75k...
Firebrick43
Well-known member
75k per bitcoin, or other words it would be worth 150 billion dollars
For the folks that might like to see the new replacement air handler. There were 4 guys here yesterday from 8:30 to almost 3PM. Gotta say, they did a real nice job. Much neater then the first time. Maybe due to the foreman being here. Two of the guys were here the first time.
Replaced the insulation in 3 bays, moved the inline dryer from outside to inside (not sure why but the one guy said its better that way),fine. even put the drain line on stands. No complaints. Seems to work okay. Tipped all 4 guys and went to the shop to thank the owner and manager. Monday Im bringing lunch for everyone in the office. Looks like this fiasco is finally over.
Replaced the insulation in 3 bays, moved the inline dryer from outside to inside (not sure why but the one guy said its better that way),fine. even put the drain line on stands. No complaints. Seems to work okay. Tipped all 4 guys and went to the shop to thank the owner and manager. Monday Im bringing lunch for everyone in the office. Looks like this fiasco is finally over.