Harnischfeger P&H WNG-200B Engine-Driven Welder...

[jackvasdeferens]

Hi,

Does anyone have or know where I can get any info (service manuals, schematics, parts, etc.) for this welder. It has a Waukesha FC engine, which I can find info on. I can't find any info on the welding unit itself. Any info is appreciated.
--Jack

 

[930dreamer]

Not sure if this will help you?

Smokstak® Antique Engine Community*

WELD TALK TOPIC ARCHIVE​

"I presume you know that "P & H" is sort of the brand name used by Harnishfeger. they were better known for making shovels and excavators, but were swept away along with a lot of other manufactures, in the mid 1970's when the japanese invaded with with a variety of faster, better cheaper excavators, that all but exterminated US brand names that had been around for half a century".

 

[jackvasdeferens]

Not sure if this will help you?

Smokstak® Antique Engine Community*

WELD TALK TOPIC ARCHIVE​

"I presume you know that "P & H" is sort of the brand name used by Harnishfeger. they were better known for making shovels and excavators, but were swept away along with a lot of other manufactures, in the mid 1970's when the japanese invaded with with a variety of faster, better cheaper excavators, that all but exterminated US brand names that had been around for half a century".

I hadn't seen that forum post nor the video. Thank you for forwarding them.
I knew nothing about P&H until I bought this thing. I've been looking for an engine driven welder for a few years now, but couldn't justify the cost of a new (or used) Lincoln, Miller, Hobart, etc. This one is a fixer upper, but everything I own is pretty much a fixer upper.

 

[Ricky Joe]

I have a military surplus P&H welder from 1967. P&H sold their welder division in 1970. The company that bought them continued to manufacture them until 1980, changing the color from green to yellow. They are extremely good high end welders. Originally designed by P&H engineers because the welders of the 1930s could not hold up to the demands of the crane company. I don’t know where you can get information on them.

 

[jackvasdeferens]

I have a military surplus P&H welder from 1967. P&H sold their welder division in 1970. The company that bought them continued to manufacture them until 1980, changing the color from green to yellow. They are extremely good high end welders. Originally designed by P&H engineers because the welders of the 1930s could not hold up to the demands of the crane company. I don’t know where you can get information on them.

Thank you for your reply. I found out from the Waukesha Engine Historical Society that the engine left the factory in the third quarter of 1966. So it sounds like your in my welder are about the same era.
Can you tell me on your machine, if you have the power switch turned off and push the starter button, does the engine crank?
On mine when the switch is turned off I can push the starter button and the engine will crank, it won't start, but it's still cranks. When I turn the switch on it cranks up and run. When I turn the switch off the engine shuts down.
It would seem that when the switch is off the engine shouldn't crank, but I don't really have any experience with these industrial type setups.
Any information that you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Firebrick43]

Not sure if this will help you?

Smokstak® Antique Engine Community*

WELD TALK TOPIC ARCHIVE​

"I presume you know that "P & H" is sort of the brand name used by Harnishfeger. they were better known for making shovels and excavators, but were swept away along with a lot of other manufactures, in the mid 1970's when the japanese invaded with with a variety of faster, better cheaper excavators, that all but exterminated US brand names that had been around for half a century".

P&H shovels are alive and well, they have not been "Swept away". They are very popular in the mines. Joy global and then kamasu(2007) own them now but they are still HQ milwaukee and still making equipment in milwaukee

 

[jackvasdeferens]

Thank you for your reply. Interesting... I wonder if they have an archive of old weldermanuals. I'm going to look into it.

 

[TurnipTruck]

I taught myself to stick weld with a 300A P&H with a 6 cylinder flathead on a torsion spring single axle. I have never seen another until I saw your pictures. I sold that yellow slow-to-rev antique around thirty years ago and once or twice a year wish I still had it.
I don’t recall what positions the switches had to be in to start it, but it makes sense that the main has to be turned on, then choke and crank.
I don’t know if other engine-driven welders have to have all the leads uncoiled in use or not, but my P&H mechanical rev-up contactor would rarely sense the arc strike if I left the leads coiled on the hooks.

 

[jackvasdeferens]

I taught myself to stick weld with a 300A P&H with a 6 cylinder flathead on a torsion spring single axle. I have never seen another until I saw your pictures. I sold that yellow slow-to-rev antique around thirty years ago and once or twice a year wish I still had it.
I don’t recall what positions the switches had to be in to start it, but it makes sense that the main has to be turned on, then choke and crank.
I don’t know if other engine-driven welders have to have all the leads uncoiled in use or not, but my P&H mechanical rev-up contactor would rarely sense the arc strike if I left the leads coiled on the hooks.

Thank you for your reply. That's good to know about the leads. I will keep that in mind when I strike my first arc.

 

[RTM]

Here are some GJ topics on the maker of your welder. They link out to various other forums, might take you somewhere useful. Yours is first, being newest.

Search results for query: Harnischfeger welder

www.garagejournal.com

 

[jackvasdeferens]

Here are some GJ topics on the maker of your welder. They link out to various other forums, might take you somewhere useful. Yours is first, being newest.

Search results for query: Harnischfeger welder

www.garagejournal.com

I've seen some of those, but not all. Thank you for your reply.

 

[jackvasdeferens]

I have an update: I was able go get the FC running pretty good. It's got a slight miss that I haven't tracked down yet (you can barely hear it toward the end of the video). I'm going to replace the plugs, points, condenser, rotor, and cap (if I can find them) in hopes that fixes the miss.

In my quest to find more about this welder I ran across this YouTube video. The unit he is filming is an Airco Hornet Special 200 amp unit. This is the exact same set-up as what I have (it even has the Waukesha FC engine). The only thing difference is the paint color, face plate, and the carburetor.
With this new information, does anyone have manuals, parts lists, etc. for the Arico?

I did some general exterior cleaning, got several contacts cleaned up, and cleaned up the armature (as best I could without digging into it too deeply). Armature before:

After:



I have still not been able to find any manuals / parts lists on the P&H welding unit itself. I struck an arc, but I believe the carburetor linkage is not correct. The previous owner had put a push / pull cable on the engine throttle but somewhere along the way the linkage was replaced with the incorrect versions..

There is a pneumatic diaphragm that is controlled by a copper vacuum hose connected to the engine intake manifold (red arrows). The pneumatic device is connected to the engine throttle via mechanical linkage (yellow arrow):

The pneumatic device has a 4-way "cross": first opening to the intake manifold, second to the pneumatic diaphragm, third to a mechanical "vent valve", and the fourth goes into the welding head. The face plate under the normal-looking household plug (seen in the first photos I posted) says:
AUXILIARY POWER
80 VOLTS D.C.
FOR 110 W UNIVERSAL TOOLS
AND PHOTO FLOOD LAMPS
SET CONTROLS FOR MAXIMUM OUTPUT
OPEN VENT VALVE ON VACUUM CHAMBER
TO RUN ENGINE AT FULL GOVERNED SPEED

There is also a switch that has been defeated by a small wire wrapped around (I took it apart and cleaned it up and now there is continuity when it is actuated). The switch and 4-way pneumatic cross can be seen where the pneumatic cross is connected to the welding head::


Has anyone seen a pneumatic set-up like this? Can someone explain what this pneumatic system to me? What I can't figure out is how / why the welding head is connected to the pneumatic diaphragm. Thank you for any information,
Jack

 

[Firebrick43]

Is it pneumatic or manifold vacuum?

 

[jackvasdeferens]

Manifold vacuum not pressurized (I misspoke). Vacuum comes from the intake manifold and goes to a diaphragm that retracts once the engine is running.

 

[TurnipTruck]

You are dredging up some old old memories, but I seem to recall opening the bleeder petcock to cause the actuator to (relax or push?) the carburetor linkage to go to high speed when I used the onboard receptacle. I do remember measuring the voltage at the outlet and getting 80vdc; if your grinder or other electric tool says ac/dc, it’ll work. If it says just AC, don’t use it.
I remember noticing that the big coil-looking thing would create a magnetic field when you shorted the electrode, then something would move and the engine would rev and you could finally get an arc. At the end of the weld, the engine would have a two or three second delay before it would return to idle.

 

[jackvasdeferens]

I remember noticing that the big coil-looking thing would create a magnetic field when you shorted the electrode, then something would move and the engine would rev and you could finally get an arc.

Thank you! That's what I thought was happening. The diaphragm is working, but the engine is not revving. I have tracked it down to the linkage levers on the carburetor not being the right ones. They move freely on the throttle shaft which does not turn the shaft when the diaphragm and governor do their thing. In the video I linked, his diaphragm and governor actuate the throttle. I'm going to rig something up to make the shaft move.

 

[jackvasdeferens]

After monkeying with the throttle and governor linkage (for some reason I get an error when trying to post photos), I was able to get this unit welding and it did a great job. Somebody needs to learn how to weld, but it's welding.
Thanks to all that read this post and to those that responded.
I'm still looking for the manuals, parts lists, etc. for this unit. If you have them I'd appreciate anything you have. I will post information if I happen to find anything.