Advice on fixing this plumbing disaster?

[cosmokenney]

I bought this house about 7 months ago and have been cleaning/fixing things up a little here and there since I moved in. A lot of the add ons and other things were done by one of the previous owners and the workmanship is, um, questionable.

The latest issue is the sink in the garage has caused some drama since the temps have started getting into the freezing level overnight.

The compression fitting on the cold line that connects from the copper to the flex line to the faucet popped off a couple weeks ago and flooded the entire garage. Not a big deal except in the workshop section that has wood floors. Of course, in that section, the water got under the plywood floors which seem to be sitting on slab or dirt, but has been freezing over night and melting during the day which has caused some of the seams to lift up. Also the other plumbing related to the sink is starting to drip a lot and is now soaking the cabinet.

So to prevent this I want to install a shutoff in the garage, or something else. I am totally open to suggestions. There is a shut off outside the garage but it is about three feet deep in the ground. And, the plastic dial used to shut it off with a long tool snapped off. Ideally I would just dig that out and put a ball valve in there, but I'm not going to dig out frozen dirt in the winter. My back can't handle that.

One thing I think I am also for sure going to do is remove the garbage disposal and the tap into the cold line that used to go to a refrig in the garage. I think simplifying this whole mess will reduce the points of possible failure.

My main question is how to approach sweating a ball valve in this existing line without catching the place on fire. And how do I even get a ball valve onto an existing line? Do you just flex the pipe a little and shove it as far as you can onto that one, then tap it back over the other side? How much pipe should be in the female fittings on the ball valve on each side once in place?


I am almost tempted to just pull this entire sink and cabinet out and putting in a plastic utility sink...

 

[GrayFlattop]

If you aren't sure how to solder this, then you may want to consider alternatives - like "shark-bite" connectors. Make certain that the ends of the copper are properly prepared.

If you do want to solder it, make sure you use a heat shield of some sort - and keep a spray bottle of water handy.

 

[LopezBart]

Shark-Bite has a slip coupler ball valve that will handle this sort of thing really easily:

 

[thammel]

You can buy flexible heat shields for soldering. That will solve the problem of burning things. Hate to say this, but you shouldn't have water supply etc. in a non-heated space. I assume that's the case. And why in the heck is there a garbage disposal in the garage? You should cut off the water supply and let it drain out the lowest spot before attempting to solder. Then another old trick is to ball up some bread and stuff it in the line to prevent any drips while soldering. Then when the water is back on it will dissolve and flow away.

 

[cosmokenney]

Shark-Bite has a slip coupler ball valve that will handle this sort of thing really easily:

Looks good. Any idea how the shark bite connections will hold up to the pressure from freezing?

 

[Hank11]

cosmokenny wrote:
"I am almost tempted to just pull this entire sink and cabinet out and putting in a plastic utility sink..."

Best idea yet.

 

[Kaizen]

Looks good. Any idea how the shark bite connections will hold up to the pressure from freezing?

about as well as a soldered connection....not good. freezing water will split anything but pex in my experience. My guess is those pipes were run inside the wall as they were trying to keep them from freezing. As they are exposed you might just want to get heat tape and insulate them. Probably clean it up as well. The tape has a thermostat on it so when it gets near freezing it kicks on.
I would not put anything electrical like that inside a wall as others have suggested. But as those are run now it will not be dangerous.
Short term keep the water dripping usually keeps it from freezing.

 

[cosmokenney]

You can buy flexible heat shields for soldering. That will solve the problem of burning things. Hate to say this, but you shouldn't have water supply etc. in a non-heated space. I assume that's the case. And why in the heck is there a garbage disposal in the garage? You should cut off the water supply and let it drain out the lowest spot before attempting to solder. Then another old trick is to ball up some bread and stuff it in the line to prevent any drips while soldering. Then when the water is back on it will dissolve and flow away.

There is an in-wall propane heater and the workshop portion is insulated. But, I cannot figure out how to start the heater. I think it is controlled by a remote control that I don't have.
As for the garbage disposal, indeed, wtf is that there for? No idea. I almost think this was once a rental "apartment" at one point.
Someone did a lot of really bad "custom" work on this house and I am already thinking of just flipping the thing once I get the house painted and the yard cleaned up.

 

[niget2002]

Just an idea to get through winter... You can buy flexible heat tape designed to keep pipes from freezing. Buy some of that and wrap the pipe so it doesn't freeze. It has a built-in thermostat, so it only turns on when the pipe gets close to freezing.

Then figure out how to fix everything when it's not freezing in the garage.

 

[LopezBart]

Just an idea to get through winter... You can buy flexible heat tape designed to keep pipes from freezing. Buy some of that and wrap the pipe so it doesn't freeze. It has a built-in thermostat, so it only turns on when the pipe gets close to freezing.

Then figure out how to fix everything when it's not freezing in the garage.

This is how our pump house handled the 10F this year. Works well; just wrap the heat tape and then fiberglass pipe insulation over the top.

 

[cgrutt]

I'm not sure if I'm following you 100% but think you may have two separate issues to deal with. 1 can you shut the water supply off in order to put in the cold supply shut off valve and 2. Even if you put in a valve how are you going to keep the water inside pipes from freezing and breaking a line.

I'd put another ball valve to right of the existing one to hot water heater. You'll need to shut both to cut off pressure to the sink one for the cold supply line to sink and the other to cold supply line to heater which becomes hot to sink. If you shut off the supply to hot water heater you should also turn off electricity or gas to heater to prevent it from running with no water in it (if it somehow drains). You can either sweat the ball valve directly to pipe, sweat some threaded fittings and screw the valve on (may need to free pipe on one side or add a union to do this) or attach with a Sharkbite type valve.

I'd probably add two valves under sink as well one for cold and one directly to hot after the hot water heater. You can do this on other side of cabinet and just run pex or new copper to sink to clean it up and avoid need for a union if that works.

Now how to prevent lines from freezing... either another set of valves and some tee connectors shut off supply open valves to tee and let water drain from pipe when you shut off during Winter. Or insulate pipes and add some source of heat small electric heater under cabinet or even a light bulb might work. They also make lines that wrap around pipe to keep them warm. If supply is off just opening valves at sink may be enough to prevent damage if they freeze.

Good luck.

 

[GrayFlattop]

Looks good. Any idea how the shark bite connections will hold up to the pressure from freezing?

Water pipes are not designed to withstand freezing.

 

[BombShelter]

All metal valves hate freezing temps when filled with water. I used to think one little overnight freeze won't hurt the valve and I wouldn't clean and drain the equipment, nope, they all bust. You'd think the pressure would do the pipes first but it's always the valves, luckily I never had flowing water.

 

[cosmokenney]

I'm not sure if I'm following you 100% but think you may have two separate issues to deal with. 1 can you shut the water supply off in order to put in the cold supply shut off valve and 2. Even if you put in a valve how are you going to keep the water inside pipes from freezing and breaking a line.

I'd put another ball valve to right of the existing one to hot water heater. You'll need to shut both to cut off pressure to the sink one for the cold supply line to sink and the other to cold supply line to heater which becomes hot to sink. If you shut off the supply to hot water heater you should also turn off electricity or gas to heater to prevent it from running with no water in it (if it somehow drains). You can either sweat the ball valve directly to pipe, sweat some threaded fittings and screw the valve on (may need to free pipe on one side or add a union to do this) or attach with a Sharkbite type valve.

I'd probably add two valves under sink as well one for cold and one directly to hot after the hot water heater. You can do this on other side of cabinet and just run pex or new copper to sink to clean it up and avoid need for a union if that works.

Now how to prevent lines from freezing... either another set of valves and some tee connectors shut off supply open valves to tee and let water drain from pipe when you shut off during Winter. Or insulate pipes and add some source of heat small electric heater under cabinet or even a light bulb might work. They also make lines that wrap around pipe to keep them warm. If supply is off just opening valves at sink may be enough to prevent damage if they freeze.

Good luck.

I like everything you suggested. The extra valves under the sink to drain after I shut off the water is a great idea.
And yes, even though the shut off for the garage is broken, the main shut off for the house is still working and the garage water is branched off after the main shutoff.
I do also have other issues with this sink. I haven't figured out where the new leaks seen in the second photo are coming from. It has to be one or both of the feeds to the faucet or the spray hose.

 

[cgrutt]

I like everything you suggested. The extra valves under the sink to drain after I shut off the water is a great idea.
And yes, even though the shut off for the garage is broken, the main shut off for the house is still working and the garage water is branched off after the main shutoff.
I do also have other issues with this sink. I haven't figured out where the new leaks seen in the second photo are coming from. It has to be one or both of the feeds to the faucet or the spray hose.

Thanks if you're going to put valves to the drain lines I'd do it as close to the main water supply as possible. Keep in mind you don't necessarily need more valves to do this but that is easiest IMO. You could also put in a threaded tee with a plug a bit cheaper but accomplishes same thing. Good luck.

 

[75gmck25]

If you try using Sharkbite fittings, make sure you buy the tools to go with them.

With the prep tool you can prep the pipe with the cutter, and then measure exactly how far you have to put the fitting on to get full engagement. Just push the tool on to fully seat, and draw a line on the pipe. If you push the new fitting on and reach that line - good to go.

SharkBite Safe Seal Depth and Pipe Deburring Tool U702A - The Home Depot

The SharkBite Safe Seal Tool is a pipe deburring and depth setting tool designed for use with Copper, PEX, or CPVC Pipe. The tool will accurately mark depth and deburr the outside of the pipe to ensure

www.homedepot.com

The other small tool is the Sharkbite fitting remover. You can probably accomplish the same thing by pushing on the fitting with a crescent wrench to release it, but the tool is so cheap that its not work a jerry-rig solution.

SharkBite 1/2 in. Push-to-Connect Disconnect Clip U710A - The Home Depot

Make a mistake; No problem with SharkBite. Disassembly is fast and easy using the disconnect clip. SharkBite Push-to-Connect fittings connect copper, PEX and CPVC in any combination and the Disconnect

www.homedepot.com

 

[gahrajmahal]

I’m in the “replace it with a utility tub camp” . I’d put two regular outside sill ***** in the wall, like you were plumbing a washing machine. Connect the utility tub via washing machine hoses. In the winter remove the hoses so no freeing. Fill your drain pipe with RV antifreeze.

 

[csp]

Is it safe to assume that this garage is detached?

 

[CraigStu]

Any idea where the pipe 3ft down in the ground goes? I am thinking into the house? If so maybe there is a valve there? And if not, if there is accessible pipe, put a valve in it. You may need to drain the house water but at least you would be working in a somewhat warmer area.

 

[DGersic]

I bought this house about 7 months ago and have been cleaning/fixing things up a little here and there since I moved in. A lot of the add ons and other things were done by one of the previous owners and the workmanship is, um, questionable.

The latest issue is the sink in the garage has caused some drama since the temps have started getting into the freezing level overnight.

I‘d start by finding where all of this is attached to. Cut it all out, back to whatever is good and wasn‘t a questionable DIY job by the previous owner. Then, if you really want or need a utility sink in unheated space, plan and build it accordingly so that it is either heated, or can be shut off and drained for the winter.

 

[cosmokenney]

Is it safe to assume that this garage is detached?

Yes. Its a two and a half car garage. The 1/2 is setup as a workshop with insulation and whatnot, but it still gets cold enough in there to freeze pipes.

 

[cosmokenney]

Any idea where the pipe 3ft down in the ground goes? I am thinking into the house? If so maybe there is a valve there? And if not, if there is accessible pipe, put a valve in it. You may need to drain the house water but at least you would be working in a somewhat warmer area.

I haven't spent much time finding it. But I think it tees off the main line right after the main shutoff. It has to be buried -- in other words it is run underground from the outside of the house to the garage. I've been in the crawl space under the house and didn't see any pipes coming up from the ground.

 

[housewolf]

A sharkbite is almost never the best fitting to use in any application. It’s the least reliable and most expensive of several options. People like/recommend them because they require no skill to install. What quality of plumbing (or any other trade/craft) job will you get that requires no skill?

Pex is very much less likely to burst when it freezes but it’s certainly not 100%. IME; if you want plumbing in there you should;
1) Repair or install a valve that will block the water from entering the blg
2) Get a reliable source of heat in the blg or wait until it’s no longer at risk of freezing
3) Take care of the very minor plumbing repair you have in front of you now

The heat trace (tape) idea is great in a lot of applications but are you really using a sink in a room that’s below freezing??

Pressurized water pipe anywhere prone to freezing is all but asking for trouble

 

[KansasArt]

Have 1 pex line running up/in a exterior wall for the fridge. It froze last year, didn’t burst. This year I installed this. Close the valve, open the little cap and all the water drains out of the line. Would only work if you can install low so it can drain.

 

[backupbeeper]

A sharkbite is almost never the best fitting to use in any application. It’s the least reliable and most expensive of several options. People like/recommend them because they require no skill to install. What quality of plumbing (or any other trade/craft) job will you get that requires no skill?

Pex is very much less likely to burst when it freezes but it’s certainly not 100%. IME; if you want plumbing in there you should;
1) Repair or install a valve that will block the water from entering the blg
2) Get a reliable source of heat in the blg or wait until it’s no longer at risk of freezing
3) Take care of the very minor plumbing repair you have in front of you now

The heat trace (tape) idea is great in a lot of applications but are you really using a sink in a room that’s below freezing??

Pressurized water pipe anywhere prone to freezing is all but asking for trouble

I’ve never had any issue with a shark bite that’s installed properly

Which requires prepping the end of the pipe and marking the depth on the pipe so you know it’s seated all the way

I would not install a shark bite underground or inside a wall , but I’ve never had an issue with one .

$12 for a shark bite or $1,200 for a plumber . It’s up to you .

 

[Hohn]

Well, there's a least one person (OP) to whom I will never have to justify my intense hatred of compression fittings.

I've also never had an issue with a sharkbite fitting that wasn't due to installation error---MY error. With the sharkbites, there is on and then there's ON. It's easy to not push hard enough to get the end of the tube past the o-ring itself inside (vs the o-ring carrier).

The key to sharkbites is to push HARD while rotating them back and forth. When you absolutely cannot get it on farther, push harder to be sure. Then, try to pull it off and this will "Seat" the o-ring and it will not leak unless you have some debris or something in there creating a leak path or managed to destroy the o-ring with a super sharp edge on the pipe.
"They leak" isn't a valid criticism of sharkbites. "They cost a lot", however, is. But yet we pay that high price over and over. Why? Because THEY ARE WORTH IT.

 

[CraigStu]

I agree I like sharkbite fittings. In the automotive world a similar design is used for both freon tubes and fuel line. Freon can go as high as 300psi and efi lines as high as 75psi so the concept is sound. They cost but who cares. I use them generally in a single install. I had to replace an outside frostfree hose bib 6-7 yrs ago that was connected in the basement ceiling to copper tube. There was a time when I was confident in my copper soldering. Then they took a lot of the lead out of solder. And I used to practice maybe once every 3-4-5 years. First time I used the new solder I got the job done but it was not fun at all. By the time of the hose bib repair I hadn't soldered any copper in maybe 15 years. Sharkbite to the rescue. Yeah, it was maybe a $15 fitting but I was 100% confident in that repair.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Not a suggestion on fixing what's there, but how to move forward.

I would cut the floor and install a frost free hydrant from the supply line below frost line.
This is the only way to 100% prevent freezing unless space is heated / conditioned all winter.

Woodford® X34 Freezeless Yard Hydrant 3/4" Fpt Inlet, 1" Pipe, 2' Bury | HD Supply

Woodford® X34 Freezeless Yard Hydrant 3/4" FPT Inlet, 1" Pipe, 2' Bury ^ The Woodford X34 Freezeless Yard Yydrant Is Intended For Irrigation Purposes And Outdoor Watering And Offers Immediate Water Flow Even In Sub-Zero Temperatures ^ The X34 is used for applications such as filling field spray...

hdsupplysolutions.com

If you need a sink you can run a hose from the hydrant, even install a cabinet over the hydrant with a sink installed if you get fancy.

 

[housewolf]

I agree I like sharkbite fittings. In the automotive world a similar design is used for both freon tubes and fuel line. Freon can go as high as 300psi and efi lines as high as 75psi so the concept is sound. They cost but who cares. I use them generally in a single install. I had to replace an outside frostfree hose bib 6-7 yrs ago that was connected in the basement ceiling to copper tube. There was a time when I was confident in my copper soldering. Then they took a lot of the lead out of solder. And I used to practice maybe once every 3-4-5 years. First time I used the new solder I got the job done but it was not fun at all. By the time of the hose bib repair I hadn't soldered any copper in maybe 15 years. Sharkbite to the rescue. Yeah, it was maybe a $15 fitting but I
was 100% confident in that repair.

I’m familiar with those. I don’t wonder why they use a secondary restraints (nuts or clip) and don’t rely solely on the teeth digging into the outside wall of the tubing.

Well, there's a least one person (OP) to whom I will never have to justify my intense hatred of compression fittings.

I've also never had an issue with a sharkbite fitting that wasn't due to installation error---MY error. With the sharkbites, there is on and then there's ON. It's easy to not push hard enough to get the end of the tube past the o-ring itself inside (vs the o-ring carrier).

The key to sharkbites is to push HARD while rotating them back and forth. When you absolutely cannot get it on farther, push harder to be sure. Then, try to pull it off and this will "Seat" the o-ring and it will not leak unless you have some debris or something in there creating a leak path or managed to destroy the o-ring with a super sharp edge on the pipe.
"They leak" isn't a valid criticism of sharkbites. "They cost a lot", however, is. But yet we pay that high price over and over. Why? Because THEY ARE WORTH IT.

I’ve had my masters plumbing license since long before sharkbite fittings came on the market. I’ve supervised large construction projects with over a hundred plumbers on the project. I’ve done large renovation work in just about every major hospital in one of the largest cities in the US. I may not be a great plumber and I don’t know it all, but I’ve seen and done a lot of plumbing. A lot.

We don’t use SB fittings but they are integral fittings in some drinking fountains. I’ve seen them fail (likely installed on an assembly line by a “qualified” installer). One failed during the night in a high rise and did over a million dollars in damage to two floors below. I’ve seen maintenance men in hospitals and commercial buildings use them most were fine but like I said, IME it is the least reliable and most expensive. It’s never the best way to permanently install or repair something indoors. To accept the risk and use them in your house is fine. To recommend them to someone else without quantifying your experience with them is flat out irresponsible. If you’ve installed a couple of hundred of them IMO, that’s a very tiny sample. A couple of days work.

@backupbeeper
FWIW; underground is one of the few places I might use one. Certainly not under pavement. Someplace where my largest exposure to risk is a mud hole in the yard

 

[welder4956]

I’m in the “replace it with a utility tub camp” . I’d put two regular outside sill ***** in the wall, like you were plumbing a washing machine. Connect the utility tub via washing machine hoses. In the winter remove the hoses so no freeing. Fill your drain pipe with RV antifreeze.

Ditto. I'm on the side of tear all of that mess out and fix it right.

 

[GrayFlattop]

A sharkbite is almost never the best fitting to use in any application. It’s the least reliable and most expensive of several options. People like/recommend them because they require no skill to install. What quality of plumbing (or any other trade/craft) job will you get that requires no skill?

Pex is very much less likely to burst when it freezes but it’s certainly not 100%. IME; if you want plumbing in there you should;
1) Repair or install a valve that will block the water from entering the blg
2) Get a reliable source of heat in the blg or wait until it’s no longer at risk of freezing
3) Take care of the very minor plumbing repair you have in front of you now

The heat trace (tape) idea is great in a lot of applications but are you really using a sink in a room that’s below freezing??

Pressurized water pipe anywhere prone to freezing is all but asking for trouble

For the most part, I agree with you. I would never use them, but I've done thousands of sweat fittings and think that pro-press fittings are just a passing fad. Obviously I'm coming at this from a different perspective - mine.

I'm not calling into question your experience level at all. The OP was unsure of how to solder in that situation. Given the OP's relative comfort level for the task at hand, I still think it is a solid recommendation with low overall risk. He may have to do it over and buy another expensive fitting, but at least he won't burn the structure down.

 

[housewolf]

For the most part, I agree with you. I would never use them, but I've done thousands of sweat fittings and think that pro-press fittings are just a passing fad. Obviously I'm coming at this from a different perspective - mine.

I'm not calling into question your experience level at all. The OP was unsure of how to solder in that situation. Given the OP's relative comfort level for the task at hand, I still think it is a solid recommendation with low overall risk. He may have to do it over and buy another expensive fitting, but at least he won't burn the structure down.

Likewise. To some degree I agree with you as well. Having experienced both, I’ll take a flood over a fire any day, but exposure to either should be limited as much as possible

 

[cosmokenney]

1) Repair or install a valve that will block the water from entering the blg

The heat trace (tape) idea is great in a lot of applications but are you really using a sink in a room that’s below freezing??

RE: repair, that is what I am currently considering. This weekend I am going do some digging to see how frozen the dirt is where the broken outside shutoff valve is. If I can dig down far enough then I'll get a new valve, most likely a ball valve, and replace the one that is there.

RE: using a sink in a below freezing room. Yes, I do oil changes and the Jeep never stops needing constant care and feeding. I could go inside and clean up but thats like 20 whole steps from the garage lol ;-)

 

[GrayFlattop]

RE: repair, that is what I am currently considering. This weekend I am going do some digging to see how frozen the dirt is where the broken outsize shutoff valve is. If I can dig down far enough then I'll get a new valve, most likely a ball valve, and replace the one that is there.

RE: using a sink in a below freezing room. Yes, I do oil changes and the Jeep never stops needing constant care and feeding. I could go inside and clean up but thats like 20 whole steps from the garage lol ;-)

Simple solution. HEAT your garage.

 

[cosmokenney]

Simple solution. HEAT your garage.

Yea, that is yet another thing that is broken on this property. There is a in-wall propane heater in the workshop area and I can get the pilot light lit, but I cannot figure out how to get it to start blowing. Plus the local propane company is charging $3.29 per gallon so I am a little shy of spending the money to keep it above freezing in there.

 

[LOW1]

If you really want a sink in that garage sooner or later you are going to have another flood. Maybe the power goes off and your heater doesn’t work. Maybe you forget to turn off the valve. Whatever.

I would take it out.

 

[scfoxman]

For sweating a ball valve onto the existing line without starting a fire, make sure to clear the area of any flammable materials. You can use a heat-resistant cloth or flame protector around the area where you'll be working. To fit the ball valve, you might need to cut out a section of the pipe. Use a pipe cutter for a clean cut, then dry fit the valve. Make sure the pipe inserts about an inch into each side of the valve for a secure fit. You can flex the pipe slightly to get it in place, but be gentle to avoid any damage.

Last year, I had a similar issue with blocked drains and a problematic hot water system. It was a real headache until I called in some professionals. A friend recommended a great company with expert plumbers who specialize in emergency services, and they sorted everything out quickly. If you're looking for reliable help, you might want to find out more about Central Coast plumbers . They could be just what you need to get this mess under control.