HVAC contractor pricing - no thanks

[rattle_snake]

Shopping for 2 new heat pumps for home. Got a few quotes in $18,000-25,000 range.

But

You can buy the equipment for 5-10k. Like name brand high seer inverter. 200%+ equipment markup and $1000/hr labor. I can't allow myself to get raped that bad. Super easy install, no ladder/roof/attic. Everything at floor level, out of season when the system isn't even needed. I did spent some time shopping and going over data sheets to choose the right models for my application. Sadly the HVAC industry is mostly locked down in terms of tech info, pricing and purchasing. Can't have Mr. Garage journal touching anything, haha.

 

[OccupantRJ]

I know the feeling. 5 years ago my 2 ton package heat pump compressor failed. I got online and ordered a 2-1/2 ton online delivered to my door for $1850. I made a new transition cover from new sheet metal and bought two new square to round adapters for the ducts. I also bought a static pressure testing device along with an anemometer to set flows. I slid the old unit out of place and set the new one. All in I had about $2000 in it and about a days work. No warranty due to self install. If It fails, I will repair it or just slap another one in it’s place. There is also an HVAC supply near me that readily sells to individuals in case I happen to need any parts or supplies. The condenser fan on my shop heat pump locked up, and an hour later and $103 I was back in action.

 

[fitter30]

Shopping for 2 new heat pumps for home. Got a few quotes in $18,000-25,000 range.

But

You can buy the equipment for 5-10k. Like name brand high seer inverter. 200%+ equipment markup and $1000/hr labor. I can't allow myself to get raped that bad. Super easy install, no ladder/roof/attic. Everything at floor level, out of season when the system isn't even needed. I did spent some time shopping and going over data sheets to choose the right models for my application. Sadly the HVAC industry is mostly locked down in terms of tech info, pricing and purchasing. Can't have Mr. Garage journal touching anything, haha.

High seer inverter equipment isn't serviced like a 14 seer single speed compressor. Service person has more training, the company has to make the commitment for training , computer, programming that changes 2-3 year needing it for evening added refrigerant. A good relationship with the local distributor if there's a problem. This equipment doesn't really have any generic parts in them. All motors are ecm everything comes out of one main board in the condenser. So unless you know a trained service person good luck if there's a problem.

 

[BillK]

For those of us that have the ability to do this stuff its easy to complain about what businesses charge for it. But if you really knew what the costs of doing business are now days you would understand the prices. Its almost impossible to even find a good helper type employee for less than $20 an hour. That $25 probably ends up costing the employer $50 I would imagine any decent HVAC tech is making close to 6 figures now days. Not to mention vehicle costs, insurances etc etc etc.

What do you guys do for a living and what rate is your work billed out at ?

 

[Hobby_Man22]

Well the systems do come with refrigerant already in them, so if you can put it all in place then get someone to hookup the line set and braze it all together then I'd imagine you would save money. I don't think a company will go for that though.

 

[micromind]

Shopping for 2 new heat pumps for home. Got a few quotes in $18,000-25,000 range.

But

You can buy the equipment for 5-10k. Like name brand high seer inverter. 200%+ equipment markup and $1000/hr labor. I can't allow myself to get raped that bad. Super easy install, no ladder/roof/attic. Everything at floor level, out of season when the system isn't even needed. I did spent some time shopping and going over data sheets to choose the right models for my application. Sadly the HVAC industry is mostly locked down in terms of tech info, pricing and purchasing. Can't have Mr. Garage journal touching anything, haha.

A lot of this is not profit, the majority is taxes, insurance and overhead.

 

[American Locomotive]

Yup, new install prices at absolutely outrageous right now. There are now big chain HVAC companies coming in and purchasing the smaller guys and jacking prices up. No one does time+materials anymore. They'll give you a quote, and that's it. It will have 200-300% markup on the equipment, two guys will show up, slam the whole install out in a day, and then when you do the math, you'll find that you paid anywhere between $500-1000 per man-hour.

The bootlickers on facebook, forums, and wherever else you vent about it will then chime in with something like "You'Re NoT PayINg foR theIr TiMe, yOu're pAyIng fOr ThEir KnOWledGe" or "OvER hEad". Even though the install techs that showed up your home are two newbies the temp firm found last week, making $19.50/hr.

The pricing is getting so ridiculous now, that you can buy the equipment yourself, buy all the tools, take a few hours to learn how to install it all, throw all of the equipment and tools away and buy another complete set of equipment and tools because you did it wrong and ruined everything, install it again and STILL save money compared to paying someone to do it.

 

[ad244]

Following this thread

 

[crguy]

I just had my 20 year old system redone. New inside & outside units, wiring, thermostat, piping, some duct work. Cost me $14K and I was OK with the price. Took a day and a half, plus a return visit to fix something. All guaranteed. If anything goes wrong all I have to do is call.

 

[PoorUB]

Yup, new install prices at absolutely outrageous right now. There are now big chain HVAC companies coming in and purchasing the smaller guys and jacking prices up. No one does time+materials anymore. They'll give you a quote, and that's it. It will have 200-300% markup on the equipment, two guys will show up, slam the whole install out in a day, and then when you do the math, you'll find that you paid anywhere between $500-1000 per man-hour.

The bootlickers on facebook, forums, and wherever else you vent about it will then chime in with something like "You'Re NoT PayINg foR theIr TiMe, yOu're pAyIng fOr ThEir KnOWledGe" or "OvER hEad". Even though the install techs that showed up your home are two newbies making $19.50/hr.

The pricing is getting so ridiculous now, that you can buy the equipment yourself, buy all the tools, take a few hours to learn how to install it all, throw all of the equipment and tools away, buy another complete set of equipment and equipment because you did it wrong and ruined everything, install it again and STILL save money compared to paying someone to do it.

I hate to agree, but it is true!
I worked in HVAC for 20+ years. HVAC since COVID has gone nuts. I believe in part because they need more bodies in the trade. Shops are busy, so they charge what ever they want. Four years ago you could get a basic 70,000 BTU, 90% furnace and 14 SEER 2 ton AC installed for $7,500, Today you will be lucky to get it dine for under $10K. Equipment and material cost is up some, but not enough to justify a 40% - 50% increase.

You can look up prices on the internet, but a 70K BTU furnace is roughly $1,500, same as the AC, add a indoor coil, line set, some duct work, PVC for venting, and you might have $4,000. Then the dealer tacks on $6,000 more markup and for two guys and one day.

I remember doing a furnace for a guy, of course this is 15 years ago and we had less than $2,000 in the whole job and charged him $2,800.

 

[pcmeiners]

"A lot of this is not profit, the majority is taxes, insurance and overhead."

I was in business, $18-25k, it is mostly profit.

"Well the systems do come with refrigerant already in them, so if you can put it all in place then get someone to hookup the line set and braze it all together then I'd imagine you would save money"

One step easier, brazing is now a rare item in minisplit installs.

 

[PoorUB]

"A lot of this is not profit, the majority is taxes, insurance and overhead."

I was in business, $18-25k, it is mostly profit.

We didn't have insurance and overhead 5 years ago?

I just had my 20 year old system redone. New inside & outside units, wiring, thermostat, piping, some duct work. Cost me $14K and I was OK with the price. Took a day and a half, plus a return visit to fix something. All guaranteed. If anything goes wrong all I have to do is call.

Crazy, unless you got some super high efficiency equipment. Like I mentioned before, five years ago a shop would charge $7,500 for 70K BTU and a 2 ton AC and be happy. You got charged almost twice that! Equipment, materials and labor have not doubled in that time.

 

[danski0224]

You can buy the equipment for 5-10k. Like name brand high seer inverter.

********.

 

[American Locomotive]

********.

You can buy a 3 ton ducted 19.8 SEER2 Mitsubishi heatpump system for $5800 with free liftgate delivery to your door.

Mitsubishi PVZ-A36NHA - 36k BTU Cooling + Heating - P-Series Multi-Position Air Handler Air Conditioning System - 19.8 SEER2

The Mitsubishi - 36k BTU Cooling + Heating - P-Series Multi-Position Air Handler Air Conditioning System - 19.8 SEER2 PVZ-A36NHA has been discontinued. Check out Expert's recommended alternatives for another top mini split system.

www.ecomfort.com

You can also get a 3-ton 20 SEER2 Goodman (if you consider that brand name) complete packaged system for $7189, delivered to your door.

Goodman GSXV903610 MBVC1601AA-1 CAPF4860C6 TXV - 3.0 Ton Cooling - Air Conditioner + Variable Speed Air Handler System - 20.0 SEER2

The Goodman - 3.0 Ton Cooling - Air Conditioner + Variable Speed Air Handler System - 20.0 SEER2 GSXV903610 MBVC1601AA-1 CAPF4860C6 TXV has been discontinued. Check out Expert's recommended alternatives for another top central air package.

www.ecomfort.com

 

[danski0224]

You can buy a 3 ton ducted 19.8 SEER2 Mitsubishi heatpump system for $5800 with free liftgate delivery to your door.

Mitsubishi PVZ-A36NHA - 36k BTU Cooling + Heating - P-Series Multi-Position Air Handler Air Conditioning System - 19.8 SEER2

The Mitsubishi - 36k BTU Cooling + Heating - P-Series Multi-Position Air Handler Air Conditioning System - 19.8 SEER2 PVZ-A36NHA has been discontinued. Check out Expert's recommended alternatives for another top mini split system.

www.ecomfort.com

You can also get a 3-ton 20 SEER2 Goodman (if you consider that brand name) complete packaged system for $7189, delivered to your door.

Goodman GSXV903610 MBVC1601AA-1 CAPF4860C6 TXV - 3.0 Ton Cooling - Air Conditioner + Variable Speed Air Handler System - 20.0 SEER2

The Goodman - 3.0 Ton Cooling - Air Conditioner + Variable Speed Air Handler System - 20.0 SEER2 GSXV903610 MBVC1601AA-1 CAPF4860C6 TXV has been discontinued. Check out Expert's recommended alternatives for another top central air package.

www.ecomfort.com

OP stated 2 heat pumps, so that's 12k to 14k in just equipment.

Way more than the "5-10k" also stated by OP.

Therefore, ********.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[American Locomotive]

OP stated 2 heat pumps, so that's 12k to 14k in just equipment.

Way more than the "5-10k" also stated by OP.

Therefore, ********.

Thanks for proving my point.

Sorry, missed the "2 units" requirement. But still, that's a 3 ton unit. You spec out a 2 ton and 1.5 ton Mitsubishi unit and you'll be under 10k. I agree that you're not getting two large heatpumps + air handlers for 5k, but 10k, certainly.

...and these are retail prices too. Not B2B prices.

 

[rattle_snake]

OP stated 2 heat pumps, so that's 12k to 14k in just equipment.

Way more than the "5-10k" also stated by OP.

Therefore, ********.

Thanks for proving my point.

Uh, 5800 + 5800 = 11600. Including markup and shipping of e-comfort that I don't have to pay.

My actual quote was $9400 for 2T AND a 3T Bosch 18.5 inverter. $5200 for Goodman 14 seer single stage.

..... No warranty due to self install....

That is not necessarily the case, Some brands perhaps, not others. Part of the HVAC industry ******** to secure their cut. I'll get warranty on this set just like the last set I installed.

High seer inverter equipment isn't serviced like a 14 seer single speed compressor. Service person has more training, the company has to make the commitment for training , computer, programming that changes 2-3 year needing it for evening added refrigerant. A good relationship with the local distributor if there's a problem. This equipment doesn't really have any generic parts in them. All motors are ecm everything comes out of one main board in the condenser. So unless you know a trained service person good luck if there's a problem.

Yes same as a car. You can choose the style you want to buy and work on.

ECM/BLDC/inverter isn't magic, boards have built in self test. Don't need hardly any skill or training to count blinks, look up code in manual and swap part. Like car ODB of the 90s. HVAC techs are not doing PCB level troubleshooting with Oscope or component replacement with soldering iron. But replacement pricing can be high, especially if you pick a brand that won't sell parts to average Joe. So that can be avoided by choice.

 

[yellowbox]

And people think auto repair is a ripoff

 

[Mikes61]

Two of my buddys are HVAC guys and they‘ve got stupid money. They’ve been making bank for years. The markup and what they charge for labor must be insane.

 

[danski0224]

...and these are retail prices too. Not B2B prices.

The online places move boxes and they aren't going to warranty the stuff they sell. Pricing isn't always way out there.

I bought an expensive water heater online because it was several hundred dollars less than from the supply house. It was defective out of the box. That was the last time I bought equipment online. Huge pain in the ***.

 

[yelchevelle]

It’s weird to me how protected some industries are. I installed a new unit in 2022 with my brother who used to be an HVAC tech. Between his installation skills, and the redesign that I did all the calculations for, mine turned out amazing. Labor, tools, and materials, I was about 1/3 of what I was quoted. And that’s with better equipment too. I encapsulated and insulated my crawl space and added new windows all about the same time. My gas/power bill went down by about 30% since. I bought a variable speed system and my house stays so much more comfortable with it. My other unit is a lot newer, but when it needs to be replaced I am going to swap it to a variable too.

 

[danski0224]

HVAC industry ******** to secure their cut.

Cut of what?

Warranty work is a loser. The suppliers don't pay **** for labor in the first year.

When an evaporator has a defect, they aren't providing refrigerant or anything else that's required to replace that bad evaporator. The customer pays for all of that, and it adds up fast before labor.

 

[danski0224]

shipping of e-comfort that I don't have to pay.

You're paying for shipping.

 

[ratflinger]

You're paying for shipping.

So, who exactly are you shilling for?

 

[chinboys]

Go to a HVAC trade school and ask the instructor to recommend a few of their students who show care and smarts to install equipment and under the supervision of the instructor. The price ought to be faired and the techs would love to get some on the job training.

 

[PoorUB]

You can buy a 3 ton ducted 19.8 SEER2 Mitsubishi heatpump system for $5800 with free liftgate delivery to your door.

Mitsubishi PVZ-A36NHA - 36k BTU Cooling + Heating - P-Series Multi-Position Air Handler Air Conditioning System - 19.8 SEER2

The Mitsubishi - 36k BTU Cooling + Heating - P-Series Multi-Position Air Handler Air Conditioning System - 19.8 SEER2 PVZ-A36NHA has been discontinued. Check out Expert's recommended alternatives for another top mini split system.

www.ecomfort.com

You can also get a 3-ton 20 SEER2 Goodman (if you consider that brand name) complete packaged system for $7189, delivered to your door.

Goodman GSXV903610 MBVC1601AA-1 CAPF4860C6 TXV - 3.0 Ton Cooling - Air Conditioner + Variable Speed Air Handler System - 20.0 SEER2

The Goodman - 3.0 Ton Cooling - Air Conditioner + Variable Speed Air Handler System - 20.0 SEER2 GSXV903610 MBVC1601AA-1 CAPF4860C6 TXV has been discontinued. Check out Expert's recommended alternatives for another top central air package.

www.ecomfort.com

And trust me, the dealer isn't paying those prices!

 

[gatewaysysop]

Prices are indeed insane, especially in Arizona. Not only that, the solution to every problem is to replace the whole unit if it's anywhere past about five years old. Nobody wants to fix anything either. Every single repair job is a sales pitch for how your unit should be replaced. One year warranty at most on any kind of labor or parts, sometimes less, because the only parts they install are cheap junk that they refuse to stand behind their work. Hourly labor rate right up there with neurosurgeons too.

I get that people have to make a profit and costs have gone up, but the greed is just plain obscene at this point.

 

[danski0224]

Hourly labor rate right up there with neurosurgeons too.

Nope.

Not even close.

I was billed $14k for a 5 hour surgery.

There's another $5k in tools (sharps) on the detailed billing.

 

[4x4Pete]

Just do it yourself and post pics in the "what did you do today" thread. It'll be a good way to sell yourself and become a multi millionaire just like everyone else in the HVAC trade.

 

[Notgrownup]

I bought a mini split a few years back and decided to do the majority of the installation myself. I paid a local independent pro to cut, flare my lineset and pull vacuum for $200, too him 25 minutes. I got it from Alpine home air. I thought about buying A replacement heat pump from them and installing it myself… I might pay a pro. You just have to have the right guy do it.

 

[rattle_snake]

The online places move boxes and they aren't going to warranty the stuff they sell. Pricing isn't always way out there.

I bought an expensive water heater online because it was several hundred dollars less than from the supply house. It was defective out of the box. That was the last time I bought equipment online. Huge pain in the ***.

Sad you just want to argue. Perhaps you are an HVAC guy. My thread was not intended to offend you or those in the Biz. My point is that the pricing is absurd for the service. I respect those who crawl in a 140* attic in August to fix broke ****. I respect those who have a life of knowledge of the nuances of refrigeration and can apply it in sizing, application and troubleshooting.

I'm cheap, I have been fixing my own auto and home A/C for 25 years. Only a few tools needed and the info to learn for free. I enjoy the challenge and accomplishment of DIY, and work is done to my my OCD quality level. Here in AZ there are a **** load of A/C businesses. I have several friends and several neighbors who have helped me over the years. Some are making a killing and others not so much. I get equipment at cost.

The manufacturer does equipment warranty not the retailer or installer.

 

[justler]

I posted something similar to this in another minisplit thread. Install markup is just insane... we're not talking equipment * 2... it's equipment * 4. For a day of labor on easy minisplit installs. This is massive profit, not covering insurance, training and other overhead like vehicles and a reasonable 20-30% profit margin. This is trying to pay overhead for months on a single job.

I own a business with insurance, vehicles, taxes and employees. I know what it feels like when I'm getting fucked. HVAC is rampant with it. Hopefully the DIY industry will help normalize it... May be just like most other things. If it breaks, just buy a new one instead of getting the old one fixed.

 

[danski0224]

The manufacturer does equipment warranty not the retailer or installer.

Um, no.

The manufacturer isn't dealing with homeowners.

In my experience, everything warranty goes through the wholesaler. Or your online vendor.

Even as a contractor. The wholesaler is the first point of contact.

 

[azmodela]

My actual quote was $9400 for 2T AND a 3T Bosch 18.5 inverter. $5200 for Goodman 14 seer single stage.

Is that installed by a contractor? Or equipment and DIY install?

Curious, I'm in AZ too, getting ready to replace two units inside and out. Prices are ridiculous as you noted.

 

[Gila Monster]

It's an obscene profit, don't buy into this "overhead" nonsense. There are places that shoot the moon, and unfortunately some homeowners pay it. I knew one place that does the $18k-$20k install for a mid grade heat pump and has all the forms ready so they can put a lien on your house and have a low payment plan. They do about $100+ million plus in revenue every year. It's sleazy, but someone is getting obscenely wealthy. It's not like they're going to stop if people are willing to pay it.

I do run a business and I have a payroll with skilled labor with significant overhead and we're not charging a thousand dollars for each man hour of work.

FWIW, I had a mid grade Trane heat pump installed post-Covid, all new including duct work and condensation lines, around $8k for everything Legit outfit that has been around for several decades. Had a minor issue, had great after product support.

 

[danski0224]

I just got an estimate for $135k for some extensive exterior work, so I guess carpenters are getting rich on their obscene profits and markups too...

Oh, wait. This is the "hvac guy is ******* me" part of the site.

Need one section each for the other trades.

 

[Dagny]

Do I dare mention taxes.

 

[P0234]

I just got an estimate for $135k for some extensive exterior work, so I guess carpenters are getting rich on their obscene profits and markups too...

You got it, you're in the HVAC biz, stop complaining and pay up!!! /Kidding

 

[danski0224]

You got it, you're in the HVAC biz, stop complaining and pay up!!! /Kidding

I work in it, but I'm not a multi millionaire business owner.

 

[4x4Pete]

I don't mind a guy trying to save a few bucks. Go out learn how to do the work, buy the tools and do it yourself. I have done this on most projects I've taken on. My house, my shop, my project cars, motorcycles, tractors, machining tools and parts, and woodworking projects, were all learned skills happily done on my own. But I don't go out and ***** about the prices the companies charge for the project or service I just did myself. I know I can beat their pricing everytime. If I happen to need help from a professional, I don't quote part prices to question their pricing policies. I **** it up and pay them to do it and sometimes if I ask nicely maybe they would offer some wisdom on their profession and hopefully I'll learn something. If they can charge whatever they want, and get it, that's great for them. If they couldn't get those prices, they wouldn't charge them. Simple as that. If you don't like it there are other options. Whining online isn't one of them.